WARNING: Kelpie Product Requirements

MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 573
edited December 1969 in The Commons

The new Kelpie product (a very nice fantasy character, by the way) says on the product page that it requires Julie. That is true. What it doesn't mention is that it also requires the Evolution Morphs (head and body), V5, Hitomi, and the G4 shape. Her male counterpart Kobold (who seems to have vanished from the store since yesterday) requires all of the above except V5, plus the M4 shape.

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Comments

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    That's an awful lot of 'extra' morphs...

    At full MSRP...

    $15.95 for this package

    And to use it you need almost $150 in extras?

    $24.95 for Julie
    $29.95 for Hitomi
    $39.95 for V5
    $17.95 for G4 (you get F4, too)
    $32.95 for the Evolution Bundle...

    That's a bit much to leave 'undisclosed'...

  • SpottedKittySpottedKitty Posts: 3,253
    edited December 1969

    Her male counterpart Kobold (who seems to have vanished from the store since yesterday)

    IIRC this was supposed to be a limited-time special offer, buy her, get him free. Good thing I got them yesterday.

    This lack of actual finishing times in the DAZ store for sales and special offers is so far past a joke I can't even see it from my house.

  • Muon QuarkMuon Quark Posts: 369
    edited December 1969

    I don't have the G4 shape installed and it works just fine for me.

  • MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 573
    edited December 1969

    I don't have the G4 shape installed and it works just fine for me.

    It uses her head at a value of 0.3.

    The image below with the larger head is what Kelpie looks like on my system. The one with the smaller head is probably what she looks like on yours.

    (Of the not-mentioned-on-the-product-page products, G4 and V5 are minor, Evolution and Hitomi are critical.)

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  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    I don't have the G4 shape installed and it works just fine for me.

    The morph would probably 'work' without ANY of the additional packages...but it won't look close to the same. The question is how much does each of those packages actually affect the final look?

    Which ones are absolutely essential and without them will totally throw the morph into some 'almost, maybe, if you close one eye and squint with the other it looks like the promo pic' and which ones are well, this package affects the toenail length.

    My thoughts are that if an item is being promoted as a morph for the base figure, it shouldn't require any additional morph packages. If it does then it should be promoted as a morph for which ever is the primary package it needs...like if it is for Genesis..then that's it...if it needs V5, then it's a V5 morph not a Genesis one...same with Julie...it's a Julie morph not a Genesis one.

    Kelpie is a unique character for Genesis that comes

    That should, in my book read...

    Kelpie is a unique character for Julie that comes

    Yeah, I may be nitpicking, but it saves headaches when trying to figure out what works out of the box and what requires a bunch of additional stuff to look right.

  • Muon QuarkMuon Quark Posts: 369
    edited December 1969

    I am completely confused right now. The product page said all that is required is Teen Julie. On Teen Julie's product page, there is no requirement other than Genesis.

    Are you saying Kelpie won't install without having the other products installed? Do you get an error saying it can't install because you don't have the other products installed? I don't understand how you determined that these other products were required...... They both installed for me without error even though I don't have the G4/F4 shapes for Genesis. They both look exactly like the product for me...

    I'm not sure why you think all those other products are required in order to use Kelpie..

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    I don't have the G4 shape installed and it works just fine for me.

    It uses her head at a value of 0.3.

    The image below with the larger head is what Kelpie looks like on my system. The one with the smaller head is probably what she looks like on yours.

    (Of the not-mentioned-on-the-product-page products, G4 and V5 are minor, Evolution and Hitomi are critical.)

    So it's using the G4 Shape to get the head size morph...

    I'm imagining that Hitomi is providing some basic 'shaping'...Evolution probably a bit of shaping and a bunch of scaling. Julie is probably pulling most of the load for overall shape, though, so if you have just her, it will look 'mostly' right...

  • EbahrEbahr Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I am completely confused right now. The product page said all that is required is Teen Julie. On Teen Julie's product page, there is no requirement other than Genesis.

    Are you saying Kelpie won't install without having the other products installed? Do you get an error saying it can't install because you don't have the other products installed? I don't understand how you determined that these other products were required...... They both installed for me without error even though I don't have the G4/F4 shapes for Genesis. They both look exactly like the product for me...

    I'm not sure why you think all those other products are required in order to use Kelpie..

    Just to help clear up the confusion, I hope.. (note, I don't have the product in question, but understand what the topic - someone please correct if I'm wrong :) )

    The package would install just fine without the morphs, like G4, and in many cases would look very close to the product pictured even if some were missing. Let's say if you don't have G4 installed, the package would look about 95% or so like the promo, while someone with all the packages installed it would look 100% (numbers just pulled out of thin air)

    Murgatroyd - 28 December 2012 08:36 PM
    It uses her head at a value of 0.3.

    So it using the G4 head value, if you had G4 installed, would change the shape a little bit, making it larger, maybe the eyes little different, and such.
    How they know these packages are used is, having the morphs, when they dial up the Kelpie product and then look at the Head parameters, they can see where the G4 head morph has changed too (from 0 to .3) . The morphs are linked together like that, and by looking at the morphs, you can see what ones were used to make the 100% product.
    Morphs like the G4 may have been used in a minor degree, and you will still get the main shape even without it. But (assuming) without Julie dialed in, the morph would look much different, thus making it so Julie is required, while G4 is kind of an "optional requirement".
    Not sure to what degree the other morphs listed actually affect the product, but not having any of them, you could still install the product and still be able to do some stuff with it. It'd just be handy to know what other packages are recommended for the 100% / optimal use before a product is purchased.

    Did that help / summed up correctly?

  • MassMinionMassMinion Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    If this is true then doesn't this defeat the whole point of Genesis.......having to use a host of morphs to create a character is the old school gen4 mentality.........Genesis is supposed to offer a single unique shape/character??

  • Muon QuarkMuon Quark Posts: 369
    edited December 1969

    Ebahr said:

    Did that help / summed up correctly?


    Yes thank you! I just didn't understand what was going on. Anyways, sure enough I went to the shaping tab and took a look at the head and it did use Hitomi and V5. Very strange. I wonder what the morph looks like with just Genesis installed and Teen Julie installed. From what I read that is all that is required. Would it work?

    Sorry I didn't get it at first....

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    Ebahr said:

    Did that help / summed up correctly?


    Yes thank you! I just didn't understand what was going on. Anyways, sure enough I went to the shaping tab and took a look at the head and it did use Hitomi and V5. Very strange. I wonder what the morph looks like with just Genesis installed and Teen Julie installed. From what I read that is all that is required. Would it work?

    Sorry I didn't get it at first....

    It would probably look pretty close, but the size wouldn't be 'right', probably the overall and especially the head sizes would be different.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,765
    edited December 2012

    If this is true then doesn't this defeat the whole point of Genesis.......having to use a host of morphs to create a character is the old school gen4 mentality.........Genesis is supposed to offer a single unique shape/character??

    I haven't really seen as much of this as in the old days. These days Typically product requirements are pretty simple in that you only need one shape. IE Hitomi or V5. I have yet to see a product that requires multiples, so I think this one is fairly unique.

    Genesis is a single mesh, but people can still borrow other morphs if they want to. If I wanted to I could make a few custom characters for G4 for genesis. Would require you to have G4 for genesis and if not they just wouldn't look right. Nothing stops that practice, it's just that I haven't seen it as much.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,555
    edited December 1969

    Her male counterpart Kobold (who seems to have vanished from the store since yesterday)

    IIRC this was supposed to be a limited-time special offer, buy her, get him free. Good thing I got them yesterday.

    This lack of actual finishing times in the DAZ store for sales and special offers is so far past a joke I can't even see it from my house.

    Well, that kinda stinks. When I checked in yesterday, I saw him briefly in the "new products" on the main page, but his product page was gone before I even knew about them (and there was no text about it on Kelpie's page.)

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    If this is true then doesn't this defeat the whole point of Genesis.......having to use a host of morphs to create a character is the old school gen4 mentality.........Genesis is supposed to offer a single unique shape/character??

    I haven't really seen as much of this as in the old days. These days Typically product requirements are pretty simple in that you only need one shape. IE Hitomi or V5. I have yet to see a product that requires multiples, so I think this one is fairly unique.

    Genesis is a single mesh, but people can still borrow other morphs if they want to. If I wanted to I could make a few custom characters for G4 for genesis. Would require you to have G4 for genesis and if not they just wouldn't look right. Nothing stops that practice, it's just that I haven't seen it as much.

    The problem isn't so much that it's being done...I believe Genesis actually encourages stacking and recombining existing morphs, it's the lack of clear documentation of which ones where used...and a ranking of how vital they are (my preference).

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,765
    edited December 2012

    Of course any pre-reqs should be listed that goes without saying. I don't think they should ever let it get to the point of ranking the importance of items that are needed.

    I think it's an issue to be very dependent on "stacking". I really don't want products to have that many required pieces, it makes things too complicated. There are countless older items, especially PC items that require to to purchase 5 of 6 other items before the product will work completely.

    As I said I don't see this being done currently (for genesis) except with this example. I don't have any items requiring you to have a ton of different morphs for things to work so i don't see it as a widespread issue.

    Besides if you're telling me I need 4 different morph kits I know you dial spun the heck out of this and I don't really think I need to cough up cash for that :)

    I think Genesis encourages stacking and recombining of existing morphs for end users, but I wouldn't expect vendors to over do it.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 2012

    I think Genesis encourages stacking and recombining of existing morphs for end users, but I wouldn't expect vendors to over do it.

    I'm getting pretty good at making unique sculpted morphs in Blender...and I'm going to keep doing it. That way, I know how many 'extra' packages they'll need...none, zip, nada, zilch... :cheese:

    And yeah, if something requires a host of other packages, why not just publish the formula and let everyone who has those packages 'roll their own'...you could still sell texture sets for the 'morph' but make the morph itself a 'bonus'. And since Genesis can UV swap with ease, a good texture package becomes more valuable...and more usable. Dial spinning a bunch of existing packages some how feels like a 'cheat'...if you are going to be selling it. If you want to sell something, I'd think that unique, sculpted morphs/characters would be more valuable/desirable.

    The 'ranking' feature I'd like could be something as simple as listing the required morphs with the most important at the top and running to least important.

    Thinking a bit more about this particular morph set, if all G4 is used for is head size, I can think of several other morphs that could be used to get similar results, as they have head size morphs, too...including some freebies. So in some cases, maybe even a substitution list would be nice...(pipe dream...wishful thinking...not in this reality).

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • Muon QuarkMuon Quark Posts: 369
    edited December 2012

    I did an experiment. I uninstalled V5 and Hitomi to see what would happen. Here are the results. The one on right is with V5 and Hitomi and the one on the left is without. Pretty significant difference to me.

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    Post edited by Muon Quark on
  • EbahrEbahr Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I did an experiment. I uninstalled V5 and Hitomi to see what would happen. Here are the results. The one on right is with V5 and Hitomi and the one on the left is without. Pretty significant difference to me.

    Wow, that is definitely a noticeable difference, isn't it? It's more like a partial morph, still usable without them, but the look is less dramatic. I can see where stacking has a use: it's easier, when creating a female chara, to make it dial up Genesis Basic Female along with the modifying morph, rather then telling someone "You need to apply Basic female to 78%, scale to 89 %, and apply my XX morph in order to get the same look..". When packages like V5 and G4 are used to get a full result, though, I can agree it should be noted: if not under a required product listing, then maybe under a recommended product listing.

  • Muon QuarkMuon Quark Posts: 369
    edited December 1969

    I love this character and I don't mind that other morphs are needed, but they should be listed. Otherwise someone who doesn't have V5 or Hitomi will be disappointed that the morph is not working.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited December 1969

    Yeah, I was pretty unhappy because I don't have Hitomi and the result doesn't look as good as promos for me; had to return the product.

  • MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 573
    edited December 2012

    It looks like V5 is used for minor head shaping, but it looks almost the same without her.
    Hitomi provides the eye size and most of the head shape. She's essential.
    G4 provides much of the head scale, a bit of the head shape, and makes the lips quite a bit larger. You can probably do without her.
    Julie provides the basic overall body shape, but you actually get a fairly good (though somewhat larger and less feminine) fae-type figure without her.
    And the Evolution morphs provide most of her distinctive features, including but certainly not limited to the ears. Without them, you might as well just use it for the textures.

    Of course, as this is Genesis, you can just use it for the textures if you want.

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    Post edited by Murgatroyd on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,765
    edited December 1969

    ...hmmm, that's sad, she's a really cute character. I have V5, Young Teens5, and G4 but as I am not much into anime, didn't pick up Hitomi (particularly since I already have Aiko who can fill that niche If I need her to).

    I wonder what happens when you just subtract Hitomi from the equation.


    Or for that fact substitute a bit of Sadie or Mavka?

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,522
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...hmmm, that's sad, she's a really cute character. I have V5, Young Teens5, and G4 but as I am not much into anime, didn't pick up Hitomi (particularly since I already have Aiko who can fill that niche If I need her to).

    I wonder what happens when you just subtract Hitomi from the equation.


    Or for that fact substitute a bit of Sadie or Mavka?

    Ditto...I have bought both sets but don't have hitomi I will have to download them and see how they look.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,765
    edited December 2012

    ...could you post a pic?

    ...and if you have either Sadie 0r Mavka, could you try dialing in a bit of them?

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,522
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...could you post a pic?

    ...and if you have either Sadie 0r Mavka, could you try dialing in a bit of them?

    I haven't downloaded yet but will this morning and Ill try it out today sometime.

    I will post something as soon as I can.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,765
    edited December 1969

    ...thanks, no rush as payday isn't until tomorrow.

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,522
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...thanks, no rush as payday isn't until tomorrow.

    No problem just transfered to the computer so I can download while I'm checking out the fugazi tutorials at rendo.

  • MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 573
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...hmmm, that's sad, she's a really cute character. I have V5, Young Teens5, and G4 but as I am not much into anime, didn't pick up Hitomi (particularly since I already have Aiko who can fill that niche If I need her to).

    I wonder what happens when you just subtract Hitomi from the equation.


    Or for that fact substitute a bit of Sadie or Mavka?

    If you just subtract Hitomi, the results do not look good (blue). 30% Sadie Head does seem to be a decent substitute (green).

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  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,765
    edited December 2012

    ...cool, that looks very close compared to the pic further back in the thread.

    One of the beauties of Genesis.

    Thanks.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,522
    edited December 1969

    Okay...beaten to the punch but as I've done them I'll post them anyway
    Kelpie no hitomi
    kelpie nohitomi point 5 satsuki
    kelpie nohitomi point 5 kiyoko
    kelpie nohitomi point 5 jasmin
    kelpie nohitomi point 5 sadie

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