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OK, DAZ, seriously, what’s going on?
Posted: 30 December 2012 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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Rashad Carter - 30 December 2012 11:48 AM

As someone once said in a Renderosity forum; “With Vue, anyone can be Howie Farkes.”

I’ve been thinking about this statement, and I have to admit that there is some truth to it. Yet, I also must admit I think Howie’s scenes look more realistic than most of what I see from the Vue galleries. The difference with the Vue galleries is that lots of people are making Howie-esque type renders, they just dont look quite as good as Howie does it in Carrara. Carrara already has a better plant generator than Vue, by a long shot. But Carrara cannot generate atmospheres on par with Ozone, which is the procedural atmosphere generator Vue uses for Spectral Skies. Vue has excellent clouds and it has excellent global radiance (radiosity). To my mind, if Carrara had a more mature atmosphere generator and clouds, it could take a chunk out of Vue’s niche.But integrating Bryce wont help. Because while Bryce has much better clouds than Carrara, it still has inferior clouds to Vue. And though Bryce has at atmosphere generator, it is very basic and not as accurate as Ozone. So to my mind Carrara gains little nothing except maybe a world class terrain generator…by being merged with Bryce. Carrara doesnt need Bryce at this stage. If anything, they should port the plant generator from Carrara into Bryce, that wopuld give Bryce a boost as the native tree modeler kind of sucks compared to Carrara.

Carrara is a more well rounded app than Vue, I know. Carrara can model, Vue cannot. Still, Vue holds its own and is in constant development. Carrara is usually in development as well, but for features related only to Daz Studio, not in keeping with the industry at large. Just my opinion.


Whoever said that, “with Vue andybody can be Howie Farkes,” is either delusional or suffers from a terminal case of hyperbole. If the poster were honest, he would have said that anybody with Vue could be a Howie Farkes if he/she understood the tools, were willing to put in the time and effort, and had the artistic skill. The same goes for Carrara. I see Howie’s scenes and I am in awe. I’ve made some terrains that I thought were pretty darn good, but they are noting compared to Howie’s. I have Carrara. Why can’t I do it? Short answer is that I haven’t spent the time and effort.


It’s nice to wish for all the bells and whistles in another program. The grass is also always greener on the other side of the fence. If Howie can make photo-real or near photo real atmospheres, terrains, etc. in Carrara then maybe it’s time for those that wish Carrara had this or that feature or enhancement to actually learn how to use the tools it has.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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evilproducer - 30 December 2012 01:03 PM
Rashad Carter - 30 December 2012 01:28 AM
evilproducer - 30 December 2012 12:35 AM
Rashad Carter - 29 December 2012 11:19 PM

...I mean, now that DS has dynamic hair that looks as good or better than that of Carrara, the relevance of Carrara has fallen even more.


Can you point me to DAZ Studio dynamic hair? I don’t mean to be argumentative or quibble Rashad, but a quick search of DAZ’s store turned up nothing for D/S. There are also many features that Carrara does that D/S can’t. Bryce can also do many things D/S can’t do either.


For what it’s worth, I do agree with you that merging all the software into one would be a bad idea, for many of the reasons you listed. Additionally, there’s no way they could give out free version if they were to do it. That would really kill their content.

I may indeed stand corrected. I am not certain that the hair is dynamic, but it is hair at least:
http://www.daz3d.com/shop/look-at-my-hair

Word on the street is that the 3D Light engine is capable of magnificent things, so long as the features are enabled in some way. So I’m confident that the hair will only improve over time as users gain more sophistication with the tools. I’m also betting that making this hair dynamic is an ability already embedded in the current 3D Light toolset likely waiting only to be unlocked by someone’s clever plug-in released in six months from now. DS has a bright future ahead of it. Obviously.

 

I don’t mean to quibble, and I agree up to a point with your opinion on DAZ and it’s secondary software, but honestly, Carrara is still being developed, however slowly and D/S has a long way to go before it reaches feature parity, if ever. Not to say D/S doesn’t have some nice features, but you either have to pay for the pro version or spend bucks on plugins. I don’t mind paying for software that has the features I want, and there are D/S users that feel the same way, but D/S was originally designed as a give away, so people would by their figures and content. It still works much the same way. The plugins and the pro version are mainly for people hitting the limits of the free version.


Regarding the hair, it looks like it could be dynamic, but from reading the manual it also sounds as if once it’s set up, you have to do some conversion just to use it in the D/S scene. Plus I didn’t see any mention of it being able to be draped, or otherwise having physical forces effect it. It sounds as if it’s kind of a quasi-dynamic hair. There are other severe limitations, for instance you can only use it on one figure in your scene at a time.


I’m not sure where you’re coming from with the render engine. The renderer renders the hair in Carrara, but it doesn’t create it. The same with D/S. Making the hair dynamic and responsive to movements in an animation, or physical forces like gravity has nothing whatsoever to do with the render engine. Calculating how light reacts and behaves with the hair, that’s the render engines job. Carrara calculates the hairs movement and interactions for every frame based on the hair guides, and sends that position to the renderer where it calculates the light information and draws a picture based on that.

The hair looks better in some examples than in others, I admit. But it is hopeful. Only being able to apply it to one character in a scene seems odd, a strangle limitation. I don’t own the product yet so I cannot confirm that this is the case.

When I say renderer I don’t mean it literally as such, more of a reference to the underlying code likely being well prepared to deal with the particular challenges of animating and applying fields of influence to the hair fibers. Likely all of this has been done before in a more enabled version of 3D Light, all the plug-ins need to do now is unlock it for DS. That’s exciting to consider.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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This system is better, but it looks like it has many of the same features Carrara hair has.
http://www.garibaldiexpress.com/

But again, YMMV as some of the beta testers hair looks really bad. Shows skill and talent is still needed.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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Rashad Carter - 30 December 2012 01:50 PM

The hair looks better in some examples than in others, I admit. But it is hopeful. Only being able to apply it to one character in a scene seems odd, a strangle limitation. I don’t own the product yet so I cannot confirm that this is the case.

When I say renderer I don’t mean it literally as such, more of a reference to the underlying code likely being well prepared to deal with the particular challenges of animating and applying fields of influence to the hair fibers. Likely all of this has been done before in a more enabled version of 3D Light, all the plug-ins need to do now is unlock it for DS. That’s exciting to consider.


The figure limitation was from the PDF manual available from the developer’s web site. Future iterations of the product hope to eliminate the restriction.


Again, 3Dlight is the renderer. It does not calculate physical interactions. Only light interactions. D/S would calculate the movements and physical interactions of the hairs. D/S tells 3Delight the position of the hairs and 3Delight calculates the lights and the shadows. Plugin developers would need to write a plugin for D/S for movement of the hair. If there needed to be a change to the lighting model for the renderer to properly calculate the light interactions, then that would be a 3Delight plugin.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 30 December 2012 02:06 PM

This system is better, but it looks like it has many of the same features Carrara hair has.
http://www.garibaldiexpress.com/

But again, YMMV as some of the beta testers hair looks really bad. Shows skill and talent is still needed.


Kind of like Carrara’s hair for the creation of it, but no physical interactions that I can see, so animations may be out. Plus from the manual, to use it in D/S studio, you have to convert it to Renderman Curves or something. You can still change the material settings, but again, I don’t see the ability to use physical forces to push it or blow it.


Still, it looks better than most prop or figure hair, so that’s something.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 09:06 AM

Actually, as much as I hate to, I kinda have to agree with Joe on this one. .

You hate to agree with me? What is it with you guys? I suppose it’s more fun to hate me completely than to admit I might have a point worth considering. Geesh…

Anyway, I merely expressed surprise at someone saying the number is high. And someone calls that “sneering” at the number?

Good lord, people, lighten up.

In any case, I haven’t heard anyone provide any backup for the number yet, just a lot of discussion. Does that mean there’s no supporting data? And no, that’s not sneering. And no, that’s not intended to offend anyone.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 30 December 2012 02:54 PM
Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 09:06 AM

Actually, as much as I hate to, I kinda have to agree with Joe on this one. .

You hate to agree with me? What is it with you guys? I suppose it’s more fun to hate me completely than to admit I might have a point worth considering. Geesh…

Don’t hate you or have anything against you at all, Joe.  That said, I feel like you can be uneccessarily argumentative at times.  Not coming down on you or anything, just explaining why I said what I said.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 04:07 PM

Don’t hate you or have anything against you at all, Joe.  That said, I feel like you can be uneccessarily argumentative at times.  Not coming down on you or anything, just explaining why I said what I said.

Umm…okay…but you still haven’t explained why you said you hate to agree with me….

The reason I mention it is that I hear that a lot here. People hate to admit I might be right. I just don’t understand it. Seems strange that someone would hate to agree with someone else, or hate to admit they’re right.

But anyway, I suppose it is what it is and people are what they are…..no explanation necessary. I just find it strange

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Posted: 30 December 2012 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 30 December 2012 04:13 PM
Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 04:07 PM

Don’t hate you or have anything against you at all, Joe.  That said, I feel like you can be uneccessarily argumentative at times.  Not coming down on you or anything, just explaining why I said what I said.

Umm…okay…but you still haven’t explained why you said you hate to agree with me….

 

Yes, I did.  I hate to agree with you because you can be unnecessarily argumentative.  It gets under people’s skin.  That’s why I said it.  You get under people’s skin.  I don’t like to agree with people who get under people’s skin. 

When someone disagrees with you, you tend to get bent out of shape over it and often can be disrespectful toward others, including 3DAge (one of the most respected people here) who you seem to have a particular beef with for some unknown reason.

So, if I may, back to the topic at hand, which is Carrara.

If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that’s what they’re doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing?  Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

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Posted: 30 December 2012 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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Joe, I remember reading an old page talking about when Carrara was sold to some company years ago, one of the guys quoted was talking about the huge e-mail list they were getting (I think it included Ray Dream users). That’s probably where some of this stuff starts. But you know and I know that doesn’t mean everyone is an active user and the way e-mail addresses have changed for most folks over the years, I would safely assume those e-mail lists are worthless now (they were probably fresher and a better deal back then). You probably can’t count registered users either as some folks install and register and then do nothing. I have two friends who have high end CG programs—one has LW and he only got it thinking he’d need it for his production company—turns out he didn’t—he uses regular old video and After Effects. The other guy bought 3ds Max when he bought some other Autodesk stuff in some package deal. He’s never touched 3ds Max. He used other programs for designing sound studios and he doesn’t even do that anymore. Things change and people move on. Something folks should consider.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 04:26 PM

If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that’s what they’re doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing?  Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

I do not think it would be a good thing. As has been discussed at length in other threads, to make Carrara a program that would bring in the money needed to support the developers needed, it would cost a small fortune. Reminds me of an apartment building where I used to live in Detroit. Nice place then, still not bad now in appearance, but it needs $10 Million dollars in plumbing and heating repairs done, They tried to sell it recently and couldn’t. I think the City had to step in to get HUD to relax about some stuff. But a similar thing could be said for Carrara—was a nice software package and still is without some of the newer bells and whistles (though if people would dig, some of the same stuff can be done in it) but it would take millions of dollars for a company to fix it up to gee-whiz snuff. So it would probably die. At least with the DAZ content connection and it being their all-in-one most-pro solution, Carrara has a future at DAZ. The best way to keep it compatible with DAZ content is to keep it part of DAZ.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Steve K - 30 December 2012 12:53 PM
Dartanbeck - 30 December 2012 12:10 PM

...  the added bonus that one could easily import Poser figures and animate those for use in one’s creations.

Bingo.  That is when I gave up on Poser for most projects.

I was wishing, at that point. That’s where I first discovered Carrara but, alas, had to build the funds. By that time it was graciously taken over by none other than my favorite content folks, Daz3d! smile

Steve K - 30 December 2012 12:53 PM
Dartanbeck - 30 December 2012 12:10 PM

And now you don’t even need to import because Poser Libraries are treated as Carrara assets. With beta 8.5 the newest Daz3d libraries are being added as well.

Pretty much what the average Carrara user wants! Isn’t it?

I think so.  I have not used the 8.5 Beta much (at all?), waiting (and waiting, and ...) for the production release. 

But does the DS only content, e.g. Genesis, etc., work the same in Carrara as the Poser content?  I.e. links to external runtimes (or whatever DS calls them), direct load from the Carrara browser, etc.? 

And is there any talk of a release date for the final Carrara 8.5?

There was talk, a while back (shortly after the release of build 172, I think, that this was close to being the release candidate - but they wanted our input first.
Steve (and that goes for anyone else who might be thinking about it),
you should really give it a test drive! C8.5 Pro, build 172 is the best Carrara yet, as far as the Windows platform is concerned, I think.

Just be sure to:
A - Make sure the installer points to a new folder, like Carrara85b, for example, than your current installation.
B - Do NOT choose “Yes” if it asks to uninstall Carrara

After that, I made a new folder in my “My Documents > Daz3d” folder, “Carrara 85b”, copied the contents of my Carrara folder and pasted it into that new folder, basically copying over all of my own, Carrara My Library - so-to-speak. This way I can open and save, without changing stuff I don’t want to break. Of course, you’ll also have to install all of your cool Carrara stuff to the new Carrara, but that’s just fun!

Once you install the VERY LATEST version of Daz Studio, and any Genesis content you may have acquired, Carrara 8.5beta is now ready to open Genesis as it does everything else.

I’ve been using nothing but the beta since a couple or three builds ago, I like it that much better - but only play with Genesis on occasion.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 05:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 30 December 2012 04:46 PM
Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 04:26 PM

If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that’s what they’re doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing?  Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

I do not think it would be a good thing. As has been discussed at length in other threads, to make Carrara a program that would bring in the money needed to support the developers needed, it would cost a small fortune. Reminds me of an apartment building where I used to live in Detroit. Nice place then, still not bad now in appearance, but it needs $10 Million dollars in plumbing and heating repairs done, They tried to sell it recently and couldn’t. I think the City had to step in to get HUD to relax about some stuff. But a similar thing could be said for Carrara—was a nice software package and still is without some of the newer bells and whistles (though if people would dig, some of the same stuff can be done in it) but it would take millions of dollars for a company to fix it up to gee-whiz snuff. So it would probably die. At least with the DAZ content connection and it being their all-in-one most-pro solution, Carrara has a future at DAZ. The best way to keep it compatible with DAZ content is to keep it part of DAZ.

Absolutely.
All good intentions are one thing, but Daz3d truly has those. Carrara users were aching that they needed features fixed and/or added. Daz3d devs came right into the discussion and asked, “Like what, could you please give some examples and please keep the in-between clutter-talk (in that particular thread) to a minimum, so we can see your responses easier?” Holly must have had the most logically thought-out responses, and she did so right near the start of the thread… which makes me very excited to see if they take her heed in v9 or 10!!! Many others piped in and a nice list of great (and some not-so-great) ideas formed - and then the clutter took over! lol

I also don’t think that Daz3d was ever planning to put Bryce out of their plans, either. With the economy forcing everyone to stop spoiling themselves on their hobbies, Daz had to find a way to change their minds… and that they did! It worked very, very well! Don’t take that as a message from Daz3d stating that any of them are to be dropped. They really love the software they sell - that’s why they bought them (DS excluded, of course - they built that baby from ground up. And I still have a copy of D|S v0.7beta in storage!) wink

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Posted: 30 December 2012 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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PhilW, in his “Infinite Skills” Traing videos, has shown, very quickly, yet comprehensively that Carrara’s modeler works quite well. And he goes over UV Mapping and rigging, etc., just what the average 3d animator needs from the 3d software. It drives me nuts when people look at what big movie productions are doing and say: “Why doesn’t Carrara have that?”
If all you have is a Pinto, why look at a Corvette mod shop for ideas?
Carrara has an outstanding list of features to take a hard-working stone mason, and give him the tools to make videos without dealing with making costumes for people and making them run around in front of a camera. Topping that with the ability to add a fully rigged family of Dragons? Now we’re talkin’!
Carrara is beautiful. The presets are nice to give an example of where to start. The people who work on the dev team are really, really cool… and far more intelligent than anyone here gives them credit for. Howie actually looks at what he can do - not what he can’t - that’s why he’s so good. Some people just don’t exercise their imagination enough - so it hurts when they use those muscles. The same can be said for those who try to think. Pierre thinks from the time he wakes through the time he wakes. It doesn’t end for him. Spooky and Bruce have all proven to everyone how much they really want to give every one of us what we want. They really have - and recently, even! They don’t type for a month or two and they’re facing a mob, ready to pin them to a cross… what a bummer.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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I have very little modeling experience, but I have used Carrara’s modeler to build a few things and I have to say I like it for the most part.  It can be frustrating at times, but a little determination gets around that.  I find it rather intuitive.

I do have to say that I like Blender better.  Again, not a lot of experience with it, but I seems more cooperative.  Many say Blender isn’t user-friendly, but 2.5 changed that, in my opinion.  There are so many good tutorial vids out there for Blender, it’s very easy to learn.

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