OK, DAZ, seriously, what's going on?

Kodiak3DKodiak3D Posts: 0
edited January 2013 in Carrara Discussion

Build .172 has been out now since July (I believe) with no update since. What's the plan here? I'd like to know, if for any reason so I can make decisions on what to purchase. Is 8.5 going to see the light of day? Are you skipping 8.5 and going straight to 9? Is Carrara dead?

DAZ Studio has now become capable of serious animation with the addition of keyMate and graphMate. Lookatmyhair has added dynamic hair and Infinito added landscapes. Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there' not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio (as far as animation goes). If Carrara is just going to fade away into nothing, then I may need to start buying some of these things, and I'd prefer to do so while they're on sale.

PLEASE, tell us where things are with Carrara. Forgive me for saying so, but having just gone silent on the matter seems mighty shady. We're a pretty dedicated community of users here, and I feel like we deserve at least enough respect to keep us in the loop of what's going on.

Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
«13456789

Comments

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Kodiak3D said:
    DAZ Studio has now become capable of serious animation with the addition of keyMate and graphMate. Lookatmyhair has added dynamic hair and Infinito added landscapes. Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there' not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio (as far as animation goes). If Carrara is just going to fade away into nothing, then I may need to start buying some of these things, and I'd prefer to do so while they're on sale.

    I'm sure they will jump right on this "threat" to stop you spending your money needlessly....

    If D|S is the better solution then you should invest in it. But if you are just attempting to duplicate with D|S what you already have with Carrara, I don't really see the advantage (assuming DAZ releases SOME final version of Carrara with the C8.1 bug fixes)

    But this is DAZ. How long before those plugins are abandoned due to D|S updates...? And will D|S be rendering any FASTER because that seems to be the big block to animation, imo...

    On the bad news you can see how long the Carrara bug tracker has been idle. Whatever the issues, Carrara development is at a stand still, since at least October, afaict.

    But seriously, if Carrara "goes away" I would not be investing in D|S.... Things that are on sale today will be onsale again several times this year. Never buy anything at DAZ unless it's 50% off, but it's ok to wait. It'll be 50% off again soon enough.

  • Kodiak3DKodiak3D Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Well, my post wasn't intended as a "threat." Either I buy DAZ Studio stuff or Carrara stuff. I just think the silence from them is ridiculous.

    Also, yes, I've checked the Bug Tracker, and that bothers me the most. I find it difficult ot believe that DAZ would kill Carrara at this point (having 8.5 in at least a functional beta), but the inaction on the Bug Tracker is a very disturbing thing.

  • edited December 1969

    Personally I've been of the opinion that Carrara is basically dead for months now. Even if Daz does keep it on life support as they have been the last couple of years, it's more painful to stick with it than to bite the bullet and learn another package. Horrendously slow development, constant bugs, the lack of serious and stable professional features, incredibly sluggish OpenGL playback, etc. is very harmful to my productivity. I've been using C4D for a couple years for most of my 3D work, but as far as content goes I decided to ditch Carrara and start using Daz Studio. There is just way more community support for DS, hence the number of great plugins that are being released. I've been learning Keymate and Graphmate the last couple of days, and I have to say that I've already started animating some really cool scenes that would have been very difficult to do in Carrara because of the sluggish playback. I haven't noticed any major problems with the speed of rendering either, although maybe that's because I'm on a 12-core Mac Pro. And I have to say I do like the quality of the 3Delight renderer. Very solid stuff as far as I'm concerned.

  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    Nothing I can really add that I haven't already in 12 other threads...

    I too lament the apparent neglect Daz has shown Carrara. If they are NOT neglecting it, then please, drop a post in the forum and update us. Not a lot to ask, I think.

    I bought LightWave recently and am learning its ropes. I don't think I'll abandon Carrara completely for a long time -- but that depends on what Daz does with it.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited December 2012

    Kodiak3D said:
    Build .172 has been out now since July (I believe) with no update since. What's the plan here? I'd like to know, if for any reason so I can make decisions on what to purchase. Is 8.5 going to see the light of day? Are you skipping 8.5 and going straight to 9? Is Carrara dead?.

    So, when they decided to give away almost all of their software for free, was that not a clear enough sign? Was that not like everyone in DAZ jumping up and down and waving their hands, and saying "Hey Kodiak !!! Over here !!! We're no longer a software company !!! We just sell content !!! "

    As I originally (and almost jokingly) predicted months ago, 8.5 will be out next year sometime. But after that, I'm guessing that any improvements in any of their software will be SOLELY to support new content features. Like Genesis.

    It's not about software any more, it's about content. Software is extremely expensive to develop, takes many years, requires a big and trained staff, and with stuff like Blender out there there's too much competition with free software that does stuff much better.

    Content, on the other hand, is cheap and easy and gives a quick return on your small investment.

    They no longer make money on software development. They gave it all away free. So it's probably not dead, but becomes more of a content delivery mechanism that is developed solely to support content. When and if that's needed.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • Kodiak3DKodiak3D Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Well, Joe, we can only take them at their word, and the last word we had was that Carrara 8.5 was in development and apparently going well. Then...zilch.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited December 1969

    Kodiak3D said:
    Well, Joe, we can only take them at their word, and the last word we had was that Carrara 8.5 was in development and apparently going well. Then...zilch.

    Also, keep in mind that this is the end of the year. Thanksgiving, Christmas....

    It's when many companies shut down and many people go on vacation. So I wouldn't read too much into silence during these last two months.

    Personally, I'm speculating (with no proof whatsoever) that they may have cut back on development staff when they did the big giveaway, so that might explain some of the silence also.

  • McGuiverMcGuiver Posts: 133
    edited December 1969

    If you go to the DAZ Studio forum you will see that they are actively working on Daz Studio updates.
    Daz Studio beta 4.5.149
    Daz Studio 4.5.16
    All in the past couple of months.....no time to mess with Carrara....They are pushing Genisis in Studio.

    It would be nice if someone at Daz would at least say "When we get Genisis the way we want in Studio, we will give you Carrara users some much needed attention".

    Holding my Breath.................

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    McGuiver said:
    It would be nice if someone at Daz would at least say "When we get Genisis the way we want in Studio, we will give you Carrara users some much needed attention".

    Holding my Breath.................


    They did say that.

    Unfortunately they said DAZ Studio..., then POSER..., then Carrara last... :roll:

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited December 2012

    McGuiver said:
    All in the past couple of months.....no time to mess with Carrara....They are pushing Genisis in Studio..

    Of course. Because DAZ Studio is the prime "content delivery system" in the arsenal. It has to work great with all the new content concepts they develop. If they develop a cool new Genesis, they need a free software to go with it so that everyone can use Genesis.

    And where does Carrara fit in there?

    Umm......

    1. Expensive (which nobody likes),
    2. None of the cool features that are all over the industry now (which everyone wants),
    3. Requires a big development staff that knows not only DAZ Studio code but also Carrara code,
    4. After 5 years of development work will still be 5 years behind,
    5. Needs a complete rewrite of its manual
    6. And on and on....

    Please. Don't hold your breath. It could be very painful. :)

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • McGuiverMcGuiver Posts: 133
    edited December 1969

    Holly,
    Seems Carrara is near the bottom...only Bryce and Hexagon below it in the scheme. :bug:

    Joe,
    I can hold my breath for a couple more years....building a hotrod pretty much keeps me away from Carrara.:coolgrin:

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I just want a permanent serial number for 8.5. I am still happy with Carrara, my needs have not radically changed, nor has Carrara DEvolved or stop working just because Poser get's more love....

    I'm trying to branch out into more realtime game engines. Carrara is working for me because I still have to build and convert models, bake textures, etc... Carrara's still my day-to-day. I don't see any advantage in going to D|S....

    Couldn't care less about Genesis... Just stop holding me hostage to it.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited December 1969

    McGuiver said:
    Holly,
    Seems Carrara is near the bottom...only Bryce and Hexagon below it in the scheme. :bug:

    Actually, I think you could make a strong argument that Bryce and Hex are higher than Carrara right now in the scheme of things.

    They're free. They draw customers to DAZ. Customers who (hopefully) buy lots of content.

    Carrara, OTOH, draws only a select few who want to pay big bucks for software, and don't mind that it's so far behind the times feature-wise. Based on that, Carrara might be perceived as less of an asset. Free stuff draws more people than expensive stuff.

    Or at least it would seem.

    For that reason, it might be more of a priority to add Genesis capability to Bryce than to improve Carrara. I have no clue what I'm talking about there, because I don't follow Bryce at all, but I think you get the point.

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I've given up, Once I have the $ I'm getting C4D. Now I regret not getting it in the first place, and having spent the money on carrara that I have. I have given up on DAZ doing anything more with carrara then putting it in it's grave.

  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    ManStan said:
    I've given up, Once I have the $ I'm getting C4D. Now I regret not getting it in the first place, and having spent the money on carrara that I have. I have given up on DAZ doing anything more with carrara then putting it in it's grave.

    Any reason for C4D over any other (non-Daz) software? Modo? Blender? LightWave?

  • RealtimeRealtime Posts: 48
    edited December 2012

    ManStan said:
    I've given up, Once I have the $ I'm getting C4D. Now I regret not getting it in the first place, and having spent the money on carrara that I have. I have given up on DAZ doing anything more with carrara then putting it in it's grave.

    Been there done that.
    Althought C4d has awesome technology, they are not customer friendly.
    I jumped in at version 9.5 an jumped off at version 11. During this time I had bought several plugins (modules). Only to find out that they took the company in a different direction in midstream. I was reduced to the base package and told that if I wanted the plugins to work I'd have to cough up an extra $1500 (just to get the features that I had already paid for). sweet!
    They lost me at, "stick up your hands, and give me your wallet".

    about Carrara...
    I have had this gut feeling for quite awhile - the Carrara community is being told one thing to keep the $$$ flowing while the writing on the wall says something else.

    Let's stage a protest. Carrara community does not spend another $$$ until there is transparency. I have several things that I am wanting to buy for Carrara - but I am unwilling to to spend more $$$ until it clear whether this is an investment or an empty promise.

    Daz, you got plans for Carrara ? Let's see them.
    Seriously, how long do you expect people to be OK with this?

    BTW - who runs Daz3d? Does any one know? It's pretty easy to see who heads up Luxology. Take a few notes from Brad Peebler of Luxology - embrace the Carrara community.

    Post edited by Realtime on
  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Garstor said:
    ManStan said:
    I've given up, Once I have the $ I'm getting C4D. Now I regret not getting it in the first place, and having spent the money on carrara that I have. I have given up on DAZ doing anything more with carrara then putting it in it's grave.

    Any reason for C4D over any other (non-Daz) software? Modo? Blender? LightWave?

    C4D was probably the most similar to Carrara... You could say Carrara is a poorman's C4D. Or it WAS until C4D took the modules route and now it just seems ridiculously overpriced in my opinion.

    Lightwave made some radical mistakes attempting to abandon all their old code and move to a whole new program... but things didn't work out so neatly, as I recall and the company floundered for a couple years.

    Modo is nice, but like Carrara there is not a large user-base.... It is still catching up in features, but what it has is remarkable. Call it a poorman's Maya (eventually).

    Blender is amazing, but it's not exactly as "open source" as they'd have you believe. It has been funded by various venture capital firms.

    This conversation is a bit bizarre. Carrara doesn't STOP working just because DAZ focuses on their other programs. I see no way that Hex and Bryce are "above" Carrara, seems extremely unlikely that Bryce will gain Genesis support anytime soon if ever... I don't understand how "free" means "more important", I would consider the opposite to be true.... This is about whining and foot stamping and being dramatic. D|S is and always will be about presets. All these "wonderful" plugins only begin to move D|S to Carrara's capabilities, but seeing as how the "dollhouse" people bitch about learning features in Carrara, do you really think they will rush to embrace a complicated new set of plugins for D|S??? More likely they will compulsively spend money and ignore the features they can't figure out. There will always be a new trampy outfit to dress up dolly with... Genesis has more "remake" clothes from the V3 era than it has new original products.... If you want to punish DAZ for ignoring Carrara the obvious thing to do is to NOT buy anything Genesis related. That's what I'm doing, and I am very indifferent to Genesis's progress.

    Our situation is not mysterious (neither are "who" is in charge at DAZ - his name is Dan Farr and he looks exactly like the old Michael2). We are waiting on Genesis, and we will continue to wait for Genesis until it's working properly. My Carrara works fine without Genesis, I just need a permanent serial number for 8.5.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 653
    edited December 2012

    I thought Dan Farr stepped aside and went into an advisory role, and then departed the company (according to some post early this year). I haven't seen him post since last year. There was a thread in the old forum about the new management team that lists who's who, etc. Perhaps more changes have taken place. I haven't seen many of the same old DAZ folks post in quite a long time.

    EDIT: Maybe he's still there -- there's an article from February where he's talking about the software giveaway.
    http://www.cgchannel.com/2012/02/daz-3d-why-we-gave-our-software-away-for-free/

    Calls him Chief Strategy Officer. Jim Thornton was mentioned as the new CEO, replacing Dan in that role.

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hmmm. I would blame the "strategy", so I would still point the finger at Farr. LOL.

  • OscarkoOscarko Posts: 4
    edited December 2012

    My vote for Modo. Modo seems to have amazing development, every new version seems to bring more wow. And it is the most carrara-like software in my opinion. Even daz used Modo for making vicky and michael as i recall.

    On the other hand, just release the 8.5 already! I am quite sure we will never get to the v.9 and it is fine so just wrap all the loose ends and give us permanent version 8.5. Announce the end of development and we can be done with it and focus on what it is there not all the weird wishes for next version that will never materialize. This endless beta testing with no milestones is useless in my opinion.
    Selling content is fine, just wrap the software loose ends.

    Post edited by Oscarko on
  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 1,028
    edited December 1969

    Carrara's still my day-to-day. I don't see any advantage in going to D|S....

    Couldn't care less about Genesis... Just stop holding me hostage to it.

    My feelings exactly. It may be hard to justify renewing my Platinum Club next time ...

    Also, the "We are a content provider" argument seems a little strange. I thought DAZ was doing well with Poser content for years, all of which worked in Carrara. So why develop DS in the first place?

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,849
    edited December 1969

    That is a very simple question to answer. Were you around at the time of the Poser 5 Fiasco ?

  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    Steve K said:
    So why develop DS in the first place?

    It almost sounds conspiratorial...but how about: "Let Carrara die slowly and we have a replacement product ready and waiting with our name in its title."

    My understanding is that Bryce and Hexagon are not being developed any further either. They are 32-bit apps stuck in a world where most of us have at least 8 GB of RAM. That's like towing a freight train with a Prius...

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 653
    edited December 1969

    Steve K, DS was developed when it looked like Poser was going to go away as Chohole said around the time of Poser 5. The company that owned them at the time had problems. This was years before DAZ saved Carrara and Hexagon when eovia closed its US operations.

  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    Steve K, DS was developed when it looked like Poser was going to go away as Chohole said around the time of Poser 5. The company that owned them at the time had problems. This was years before DAZ saved Carrara and Hexagon when eovia closed its US operations.

    Not so conspiratorial then. ;)

    In that case, I must return to the oft repeated request...Daz, please tell us your intentions.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 653
    edited December 2012

    Horrendously slow development, constant bugs, the lack of serious and stable professional features, incredibly sluggish OpenGL playback, etc. is very harmful to my productivity.

    My OpenGL seems fine and V4 moves well in it since I moved Carrara to my box with a GTX 470. Very smooth posing and playback. Wish I would've waited for the price to drop on that card, they are now down around $150.

    EDITED to fix card number

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    From the above cgchannel URL: "Farr commented that Carrara 9 was expected to ship within the next month or two, and would be the first version of the software to support the company’s new Genesis line of 3D figures, introduced with DAZ Studio 4."

    It is a good thing I wasn't drinking anything when I read that.

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 1,028
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    That is a very simple question to answer. Were you around at the time of the Poser 5 Fiasco ?

    Then I wish you would have answered it.

    But OK, I'll bite. Lessee, Wikipedia says that was around 2003 ... so, yeah, I was around, but I'm a little hazy on the details. I'm guessing Curious Labs was in trouble so DAZ went with DS, since they did not have Carrara for several more years. Something like that?

    Still, the continued emphasis on DS/Genesis, with Carrara in the stable for years now, (and Poser doing OK?) seems to somewhat contradict the "content provider" emphasis for DAZ. And is certainly disheartening to me as a satisfied Carrara user.

    And I also would like to hear from DAZ about Carrara's future.

  • Steve KSteve K Posts: 1,028
    edited December 1969

    Horrendously slow development, constant bugs, the lack of serious and stable professional features, incredibly sluggish OpenGL playback, etc. is very harmful to my productivity.

    My OpenGL seems fine and V4 moves well in it ... Very smooth posing and playback.

    EDITED to fix card number

    Same here, its never "sluggish" in Carrara, at least on my fairly high end machine.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,849
    edited December 2012

    Steve K said:
    chohole said:
    That is a very simple question to answer. Were you around at the time of the Poser 5 Fiasco ?

    Then I wish you would have answered it.

    But OK, I'll bite. Lessee, Wikipedia says that was around 2003 ... so, yeah, I was around, but I'm a little hazy on the details. I'm guessing Curious Labs was in trouble so DAZ went with DS, since they did not have Carrara for several more years. Something like that?

    Still, the continued emphasis on DS/Genesis, with Carrara in the stable for years now, (and Poser doing OK?) seems to somewhat contradict the "content provider" emphasis for DAZ. And is certainly disheartening to me as a satisfied Carrara user.

    And I also would like to hear from DAZ about Carrara's future.



    Well, it is a long and sorry story, if you really want to read about it, this is a good description. http://www.cocs.com/poser/poser5mess.htm

    And I do have sympathy for you Carrara people. My son uses Carrara sometimes, is up to C 8 Pro now I believe. As for me, well I make no secret of which program holds my loyalty, and I use poser as an add-on to it,. an older version, as I don't need all the modern bells and whistles to prep stuff for transfer as obj. I feel your frustration of seemingly no communication of current status. Posted BTW as myslef, not in my official status as a mod.

    Post edited by Chohole on
This discussion has been closed.
Rocket Fuel