Digital Art Zone

Exactly and well said…;-)

Okay, well, it’s raining, the ocean is too rough, and I’m getting bored, so I’ll respond to Andy’s response to my post.

Yeah, I know I shouldn’t. Yeah, it’s dumb. And I’m sure everyone will just get furious at me…

So sue me….

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Investors invest in a company in order to gain a financial “Return” on their initial investment,.. they don’t just give a company money to spend.

That, sir, is what I call “insanely obvious”. And nothing that I wrote was intended to say anything different. I know what investors do. I am one. And I’ve owned and managed businesses with investors. I’ve been involved in venture capital funding. I have quite a bit of experience with this. So if you’re assuming that I don’t know what I’m talking about, you’re mistaken.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

If the company isn’t performing as the investor expected, then the investor withdraws their funding…at any time..

Well, kinda, but I don’t think you really want to get into a technical discussion of venture capital funding of privately held firms and exit strategies. The point is that no, it’s not nearly that easy. But for purposes of this discussion, it’s pretty much irrelevant, so I won’t pursue it.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

All companies in all markets have competition. ... ..

Again, sir, that is insanely obvious.  My point was NOT that DAZ is different in that it doesn’t have competition (which I figured was too obvious to even mention), it was that DAZ has different competition than many other companies. Even those in the same business.

For example, It has a product similar to Lightwave in many regards, though its competition is far different. Newtek’s broad market is those who want a full featured, live video production capability. DAZ’s market, and therefore its competition, is different. DAZ’s main competition is in the content market. Few other companies have that as competition. Which means DAZ is different in that regard from other companies who produce a similar software product.
 
My point was addressing those who compared DAZ to other companies that are VERY different. How you can argue with that is beyond my comprehension, but anyway. 

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

you should think a lot about things before you write them,. especially if you have no idea what you’re talking about…

Right….
...anyway…..

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

All companies have different individuals (Staff) but with similar resources (Skill-sets) EG accounts, payroll, etc, and most companies have different product ranges or services from other companies.  (that’s how we have competition and a diversified marketplace)...

DAZ has different resources from other companies. Again, I thought that was too obvious to discuss in detail, but apparently not.
DAZ has, from what I last read from D&B, about 40 employees (though I’m sure that’s probably out of date…but at least in the ballpark…probably less than 100). Those employees have different skills and experience from those in other companies. You can’t compare it to Adobe, or Autodesk, or Luxology, or Newtek, or SmithMicro, or just about any other company in the business. It has a different pool of investors, a different revenue (last I heard it was around $2 million, though that’s probably out of date),  a different debt structure, a different market with different customers with different needs, and on and on and on.

So the point is (and this is just an analogy for discussion, not a real example), the head of DAZ can’t, tomorrow, decide they want to, say, add fluids to Carrara and have it done by next Tuesday. He has to have developers who know what that means and how to implement it, he has to have the money to pay them, he has to deal with other concurrent priorities and goals the company might have, he has to consider how long it will take, he has to keep investors happy in the interim, and on and on. Other companies are probably very different in the specifics of their considerations in implementing something like that.

Again, the point is: you can’t compare DAZ with other companies unless you really, really know what the right companies are to compare with. If they even exist.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Thankfully “Most” companies do not change their goals overnight. and I don’t see Daz3D changing their goals,....

Of course they do. Although I suppose you’ll argue about whether stuff actually occurs “overnight” rather than accept the analogy….
DAZ decided to change their goals drastically when they decided to give away their software for free. DAZ decided to change their goals drastically when the decided to merge with Gizmoz.

I’m sure if you think about it you can see that it’s quite obvious that companies regularly change their goals. Maybe not their overall, defining goals as a corporation, but daily/monthly/yearly operating goals, revenue goals, marketing goals, sales goals, strategic goals, and on and on. Business conditions change, economies change, resources change, costs change, etc., and new goals are formed regularly to meet those changes.

In terms of DAZ, my only point was to recognize that what they face today may not have any relevance to what they may have faced in the past, or what they may face in the future. And what they did in the past may or may not be viewed as a good thing for what they’re facing tomorrow.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Point one is intended to suggest that a SMALL company is at a natural disadvantage,. this is a wrong assumption based on ignorance of reality and has no basis in fact. ...some small companies are world leaders in their field.

Absolutely not, and I never even implied anything about a disadvantage. It’s a fact. In the US, a small company is defined as having less than 500 employees. That definition is an important one, and defines, for example, how the SBA assesses who qualifies for loans. I never said it’s a bad thing, nor would I ever say that. You clearly misinterpreted what I said. The point is that DAZ is a very small company (probably less than 100 employees) and that fact alone defines resource availability and a whole bunch of other stuff.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Point two is another wrongly assumed disadvantage. look in any store at any product range, and you will find competitive products with similar features being sold , sometimes by the same manufacturer under a different brand name (Market diversity).

I’d respond if I could figure out what you’re saying. My point was that there exists duplicate functionality across their product line. That’s a fact. Duplicate modellers, lots of duplicate functionality between D|S and Carrara, and so on. And if it requires a specialized group of developers who can understand and develop those duplicate functions in those very different apps, it gives a legitimate reason to wonder if it’s what DAZ wants to do in the long term. Simple, reasonable question.

So if, for example (and this is only a hypothetical for discussion) the revenue from Hex is tiny, and Carrara already has a modeller function, does it make sense to continue expending resoures on Hex? And that question goes for all the DAZ product line. The same questions you’d be asking if you ran DAZ.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Point three dismisses the facts that Daz have built Daz Studio (to be independent of any possible “third party software developments) while continuing to develop Hexagon Bryce and Carrara, and in the last year have added genesis technology to the main two figure handling applications DS and Carrara.  (both of which are still in development)).

Again, I really don’t know what you’re saying. All I stated was the fact that to add the “buzzword” features to Carrara would take many years. That’s a fact. An obvious fact. Just look at the history of any major feature development in any 3D app. So I won’t pursue it.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Point five,. Investors can withdraw at any time. but that doesn’t prevent a company seeking alternative investors or other avenues of funding.

Aside from the innaccuracy about “any time”, what you’re saying is totally irrelevant to the discussion. I said you need to keep investors happy, by providing a return on their investment. You said all you have to do is look for more investors. Huh?

Andy, if you can’t provide investors a return on their investment (ie, a profit), then you can look around until you turn purple and you still won’t find any investor out there who’s going to give you money. Again, I’m shaking my head trying to understand your point.

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Point Six,. All the other “professional” 3D software makers have not added support for Poser/Daz Content to their programs, despite being larger and better funded,

Oh, wait, I think you’re agreeing with me on this one, so I’ll move on…

3DAGE - 31 December 2012 06:20 AM

Point seven,. unfortunately shows a complete lack on understanding of Daz3D as a business, and it’s development history.

I said that DAZ has changed course towards content, not software. Is that not true? It’s no longer selling most of its software, it’s now only selling content. Before the free giveaway they were selling software, now they’re not. That’s a change. I’m not sure what your problem is with that, unless you want to argue about some detail specifics about what percentage revenue they’ve gotten from content vs. software over the years. If you have those numbers, and I’m wrong about that, then fine, I’ll admit I’m wrong.

Andy, you can keep saying I don’t know what I’m talking about if that makes you feel better, but the issues I raised are reasonable ones, based on facts, experience, and a bit of reasonable conjecture based on rational analysis. If that’s not enough, then I’m sorry, that’s all I’ve got. 

Oh, and for some additional facts to support some of what I said….

There’s an article in the Salt Lake Tribune from just after DAZ started the software giveaway, that says stuff like:

“The giveaway-away — anyone can download three programs for free at daz3d.com — is part of a strategic shift by new CEO Jim Thornton, who came to DAZ last year from Provo Craft & Novelty, a manufacturer of craft, hobby and education products.”

So, apparently, DAZ has shifted its strategic goals, and very recently. A new CEO who changed strategy for the company. Pretty standard stuff.

Also:

“About 80 percent of the DAZ’s sales come from its stock of images created by artists that can be imported into software programs and used to make two- and three-dimensional images, such as mythic warriors, busty maidens characters or desert or rainforest landscapes. The company’s software provides about 20 percent of its revenue, said Thornton.”

Aside from the confusion about what ‘content’ is (they seem to think it’s ‘images’), it seems like DAZ’s revenues, before the giveaway, were 80/20 content sales over software. And now that there is only a fraction of the software sales, since most of it is free, you have to assume that it might be on the order of 90/10 or maybe 95/5, or something like that. So yeah, it seems that right now DAZ is pretty much fully a content company, although in the recent past it was heavily content already.

Goes to show that software sales are small, and getting smaller. 

Also:

“Thornton said after a strategic review, the company decided to jettison some products, and lay off staff as a result, in order to concentrate on its 3D content and software.”

Again, a big change in the company with the new CEO. And, as I suspected in a previous post, apparently they cut staff in the process. Perhaps the lack of movement on the Gizmoz front in recent years was part of that….

Also:

“The company has about 40 full time employees”, which confirms the figure I posted.

Here’s the link to the article if anyone’s interested:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/53801962-79/daz-company-software-thornton.html.csp

OT: Ya know of all the forums I am active on, I only have 1 persona on an ignore list.

If the makers of a line of paintbrushes suddenly stopped manufacturing those brushes it would not change the ability of an artist to paint new works with the brushes already owned. That’s up to the artist, not the production factory. Carrara will “die” when users stop posting awesome work. There’s lots of awesome Carrara work out there, just not in one place for folks to easily see. I’m sure we can agree that whatever the perceived shortcomings of Carrara (or any other software) it is the creativity of the user that is the most valuable contribution to any software package. Carrara offers exponentially more positives for a creative person than negatives. This article was released a couple years ago. The work still impresses the daylights out of me today.
http://www.highway12ventures.com/2011/01/06/ive-seen-the-future-of-3d-special-effects-and-animation/
Happy Creativity in the New Year to everyone!

I wonder what comping software he use to tie it all together, it is amazing to watch, even the 5th time….

In the Carrara 2010 demo real that’s on the same page you see a red Car “muscle car”, If that’s a straight Carrara render its amazing, Id love to get hold of the file to pick apart the render setup.

ShannonHope your right, if all the top end art that has been produced is one thread it would give people a creative boost and be a positive for Carrara.

ShannonHoppe - 01 January 2013 09:28 AM

If the makers of a line of paintbrushes suddenly stopped manufacturing those brushes it would not change the ability of an artist to paint new works with the brushes already owned. That’s up to the artist, not the production factory. Carrara will “die” when users stop posting awesome work. There’s lots of awesome Carrara work out there, just not in one place for folks to easily see. I’m sure we can agree that whatever the perceived shortcomings of Carrara (or any other software) it is the creativity of the user that is the most valuable contribution to any software package. Carrara offers exponentially more positives for a creative person than negatives. This article was released a couple years ago. The work still impresses the daylights out of me today.
http://www.highway12ventures.com/2011/01/06/ive-seen-the-future-of-3d-special-effects-and-animation/
Happy Creativity in the New Year to everyone!

petef - 01 January 2013 12:12 PM

In the Carrara 2010 demo real that’s on the same page you see a red Car “muscle car”, If that’s a straight Carrara render its amazing, Id love to get hold of the file to pick apart the render setup.

ShannonHope your right, if all the top end art that i and has been produced is one thread it would give people a creative boost and be a positive for Carrara.

Why is it that I have some inability to sum up as quickly as that?
You two are spot on.
Carrara sure has a good way of giving us the tools to get some great art made, that’s for sure!

ShannonHoppe - 01 January 2013 09:28 AM

If the makers of a line of paintbrushes suddenly stopped manufacturing those brushes it would not change the ability of an artist to paint new works with the brushes already owned. That’s up to the artist, not the production factory. Carrara will “die” when users stop posting awesome work. There’s lots of awesome Carrara work out there, just not in one place for folks to easily see. I’m sure we can agree that whatever the perceived shortcomings of Carrara (or any other software) it is the creativity of the user that is the most valuable contribution to any software package. Carrara offers exponentially more positives for a creative person than negatives. This article was released a couple years ago. The work still impresses the daylights out of me today.
http://www.highway12ventures.com/2011/01/06/ive-seen-the-future-of-3d-special-effects-and-animation/
Happy Creativity in the New Year to everyone!

It’s been a while since I’ve seen this movie (all done in Carrara - except the live-action), but don’t think I’ve ever read the short, but inspiring article. I really love this part (Ben = Graphic Artist who made the movie using Carrara):

Ben used Carrara because he had used it before for animation and wanted to see if a film like this could be made without using “industry standard” (i.e. expensive) software. What he discovered was Carrara had all the tools necessary at a fraction of the cost. “It didn’t let me down. Carrara has all the functionailty that the most expensive software in the industry has. It’s simple, not expensive, and completely user friendly. It’s a great package to learn how 3D works. It taught me.”

Aside from the part about being taught by Carrara (even though in many ways, it HAS taught me), I feel exactly the same as Ben.
I also find that Carrara is simply a lot more FUN to use than Maya or Max - even though both are truly awesome - just not as fun or easy.

Yeah, I had kinda forgotten about that video. A very nice piece by a very talented group of people. When it comes to eye candy, the guys who produced it are pros   And if you need some inspiration, it’s a great piece.

And Shannon, your analogy to a paintbrush maker is a great one. Two great examples showing that it’s not the software or the tools, it’s the artist.  A concept that all too often gets lost in the discussions here, by folks who are totally focused on, and totally reliant upon, the software.

I also recall a fairly lengthy discussion when that video first came out.

(BTW, a warning to those who might be upset by anything that isn’t gushing inspiration…if that describes you, then it’s best to stop reading at this point and move on…)

I think it’s fairly obvious that all the hype proclaiming that this video was done in Carrara by one guy on his MacBook Pro in his “spare time” (edited to protect the delicate sensibilities of some here…) might perhaps lead some to a rather unfortunate and simplistic conclusion which might not be entirely accurate.

And to say stuff like “one person made this movie, with off-the-shelf software on his MacBook Pro…I guarantee you that it won’t be long before it is and then you’ll see 5th graders making films like this.” might be (edited to protect the delicate sensibilities of some here…) somewhat questionable. And I certainly hope that anyone investing in any company doesn’t use such simplistic hype to assess the “goodness” of their investments.

It’s also fairly obvious, and stated in the accompanying articles, that this video was produced by a group of people, some or all of whom were very talented, and with some skills and experience on a “feature film professional” level, and with access to a LOT of software, a LOT of expensive equipment, a LOT of money, and a LOT of time. And Carrara was a very small part of that.

And, unfortunately, in spite of the pro-Carrara hype, I think it’s also clear that he could probably have done it quicker, and with less software, by using some free software out there that has some of the capabilities they needed built in.

For example, Blender has matchmoving and it also has a built in compositor, both of which they used in the production, and neither of which Carrara has.
 
And, unfortunately, I think it’s also clear that just about any 3D app out there could be used to generate the CG sets in that video, espcially if you have access to all of the other software and equipment and talent and experience and other resources they used in the production. Because you could make a real good case that the real work in bringing together that video was in the compositing.
 
As Shannon said, it’s about the artist, not the software. Well, in this case, that and many thousands of $$ of equipment, and video compositing software (in this case, After Effects), and greenscreen studios, and HD cameras, and lighting setups, and crew, and titling software, and actors, and costumes, and sound editing software, and a musical score, and matchmoving software, and a Steadicam (or equivalent), and a bunch of other stuff.

Now, that’s not to say that the same guy (or guys) couldn’t have generated an awesome short video solely in Carrara (or any other CG app), that maybe didn’t have the eye candy and live action that this had, but had a great story and was a big hit with audiences. They certainly seem to have the talent for it. Unfortunately, nowadays, what scores a hit is mostly the eye candy, not the content.
 
Anyway it’s also clear that you don’t see videos like this circulating around very often for a good reason. It is EXTREMELY difficult to find a group of people with that kind of time and money and resources and skill and experience and equipment, just hanging around, waiting to do a project which will cost them a lot, and probably result in no income whatsoever when it’s all done.

But it’s fun to think about….

JoeMamma2000 - 01 January 2013 07:40 PM

I think it’s fairly obvious that all the hype proclaiming that this video was done in Carrara by one guy on his MacBook Pro in his “spare time” is utter hogwash.

Sorry, Joe.  You just lost any and all credibility.  Now you’re accusing others of being dishonest about their work without any evidence to back up your claim.  For you to go that far is the epitome of insult and it really makes you look like an ass.

If you don’t mind, just stop posting in my thread.

So I got the upgrade to C8Pro…but I’m a little worried about using 8.5?  Over in the Beta thread, seems Blaine may have left, and there has not been any comm’s and the serial number says it is dead in less than 2 weeks.  Any recommendations, or should I just stop at 8.1 for now?

Kodiak3D - 01 January 2013 07:56 PM

JoeMamma2000 - 01 January 2013 07:40 PM

I think it’s fairly obvious that all the hype proclaiming that this video was done in Carrara by one guy on his MacBook Pro in his “spare time” is utter hogwash.

Sorry, Joe.  You just lost any and all credibility.  Now you’re accusing others of being dishonest about their work without any evidence to back up your claim.  For you to go that far is the epitome of insult and it really makes you look like an ass.

If you don’t mind, just stop posting in my thread.

Wow. 

Starting out the New Year kinda cranky, aren’t we??? 

Go ahead with 8.5.  It works pretty well, has a few little additions other than Genesis (but not much) and they’ve been good about giving a new serial number when the old one expires.

OK, and I choose “not” to uninstall 8.1 before installing 8.5 right?  Just install right on top of it?

Yes, choose not to uninstall 8.1.  No, do not install over it.  Make a new directory.