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OK, DAZ, seriously, what’s going on?
Posted: 30 December 2012 05:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 106 ]
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  Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there’ not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio…?

Correct ParticleFX DS4.5 is in a late beta…Soon…

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Posted: 30 December 2012 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 107 ]
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Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 05:53 PM

I have very little modeling experience, but I have used Carrara’s modeler to build a few things and I have to say I like it for the most part.  It can be frustrating at times, but a little determination gets around that.  I find it rather intuitive.

I do have to say that I like Blender better.  Again, not a lot of experience with it, but I seems more cooperative.  Many say Blender isn’t user-friendly, but 2.5 changed that, in my opinion.  There are so many good tutorial vids out there for Blender, it’s very easy to learn.

Blender is free - anyone can add that to their toolbox - same with(currently) Hexagon.

Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there’ not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio…?

Really?
Please tell me you aren’t serious!
Now I can go to bed laughing my…

I’m sorry. D|S totally rocks! I really feel this way! But to say that there’ not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio…?
Oh my stomach…
I’m.. ha ha ha… I’m going to bed now!
ha ha ha

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Posted: 30 December 2012 06:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 108 ]
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Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 04:26 PM

So, if I may, back to the topic at hand, which is Carrara.

If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that’s what they’re doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing?  Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

Thread derailing is what we do best! smile

This is an interesting hypothetical though! I suspect that it would maintain solid compatibility - and maybe even get better. It has been said quite a few times on other threads, once Blender can handle DAZ content, Carrara is dead. I’m not completely sure how I feel about that…but it would be a likely motivator for the hypothetical new Carrara owners to keep it compatible.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 109 ]
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Dartanbeck - 30 December 2012 06:08 PM
Kodiak3D - 30 December 2012 05:53 PM

I have very little modeling experience, but I have used Carrara’s modeler to build a few things and I have to say I like it for the most part.  It can be frustrating at times, but a little determination gets around that.  I find it rather intuitive.

I do have to say that I like Blender better.  Again, not a lot of experience with it, but I seems more cooperative.  Many say Blender isn’t user-friendly, but 2.5 changed that, in my opinion.  There are so many good tutorial vids out there for Blender, it’s very easy to learn.

Blender is free - anyone can add that to their toolbox - same with(currently) Hexagon.

Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there’ not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio…?

Really?
Please tell me you aren’t serious!
Now I can go to bed laughing my…

I’m sorry. D|S totally rocks! I really feel this way! But to say that there’ not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio…?
Oh my stomach…
I’m.. ha ha ha… I’m going to bed now!
ha ha ha

The person who quoted me left of part of it where I said “as far as animation goes.”  Carrara certainly has much more to offer than D|S as a whole, but Studio is quickly building a set of plugins that make it comparable to Carrara in its role as an animation program.  Carrara is certainly still more robust, but D|S is catching up quickly.  Carrara still has Modifiers that D|S doesn’t, which is a biggie in my opinion, but the dividing line is getting slimmer all the time.  D|S’s ability to use Luxrender is a BIG deal to me.  I like realism in my renders, and Lux is great at it.  Yes, Carrara can achieve realistic results as well, but Lux makes it easier.

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Posted: 30 December 2012 09:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 110 ]
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LOL! This whole premise rests on the assumption that a software company can’t own 2 similar-purpose programs….

Ladies but mostly Gentlemen, I give you exhibit A: AUTODESK
http://usa.autodesk.com/products/

If you NEED further evidence I was about to post a link to exhibit B: ADOBE
...but there apparently no single webpage that displays ALL of Adobe’s products, because they have SO many…

In BOTH cases, they have products they developed and products they acquired. As you can plainly see as long as there is a userbase for each product there is no reason to “dump” them. On the contrary, the game appears to be “to own as much of the gameboard as possible”. There appear to be no other viable rules to the game. Nothing says your products have to work reliably, or be compatible, or not be redundant…

Now I give you exhibit C: DAZ
http://www.daz3d.com/shop/software

and if you click that link ^ you are probably laughing your ass off or sobbing in tears right now. Yes kids, that’s the official link as reached through the big drop down interface on the DAZ website…. Maybe something different comes up for you on your web browser, but what I got is typical DAZ….

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Posted: 31 December 2012 12:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 111 ]
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Holly, I agree with you, except there are two major differences between DAZ and the likes of Autodesk and Adobe:  money and people.  DAZ just doesn’t have the money and number of developers that Autodesk and Adobe have.

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Posted: 31 December 2012 03:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 112 ]
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But Kodiak, there is another thing you should consider. If another company is going to own Carrara and make it spiffy, you will end up paying much more for it so they can have the money to pay those extra people you need. It would go for no less than modo and possibly up near LW. To get the development needed by the people impressed by golly gee whiz features, it could go for $3,500 to $3,700. When the economy is doing well and DAZ is doing well, they can add developers from content sales. And if people here would quit being so damn negative all the time, maybe they could sell some more copies and some more Carrrara content and make it more worth their while to develop Carrara further. User mardook already stated in a thread they were going to buy it and decided not to because of what they were reading. So I would kindly suggest to everyone to knock off the negative crap and get back to creating cool stuff in Carrara.

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Posted: 31 December 2012 04:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 113 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 31 December 2012 03:42 AM

So I would kindly suggest to everyone to knock off the negative crap and get back to creating cool stuff in Carrara.

Absolutely. And like I said before, we should all say only nice stuff, so people will buy it. And then, later on, after they’ve bought it, and they find out the bad stuff, and come into the forum complaining that nobody warned them, just put them on ignore or something….  smile

Seriously, though, this whole “which app is better” thing is nonsense. Look, if it does what you need, it’s great. If it doesn’t, then look elsewhere. And if you have to use 2 or 3 apps to get what you need, then do it. There is no perfect app, there is no perfect company.

And I am very proud to agree with Mr. Kodiak3D when he makes the distinction between DAZ and other companies. (Because even though he and I might disagree on occasion, that’s no reason to negate any good points he makes…).

DAZ is DAZ. DAZ has a completely different situation from other companies. It has investors who provide funds. Limited funds. It has competition, probably a different market than other companies, different resources (people, skills, products, etc.). And as with most companies, goals change. Sometimes overnight. So what worked yesterday might not work tomorrow.

Buying Hex and Bryce and Carrara and whatever else DAZ bought might have been a good thing when they did it, but it also might be a huge pain in the butt right now. Or maybe not. Nobody knows. Maybe they just didn’t want the other guy to have them. Or maybe the conditions at the time were a lot better than they are now. Nobody knows, except DAZ. So don’t make believe you know, just accept that you don’t and move on.

What is clear today is this:

1. DAZ is a real small company that has a lot of software to work on (ESPECIALLY for such a small company)
2. A lot of the software has duplicate functionality, and it is written very differently and requires guys who can deal with very different and very specialized software…not easy to find
3. It takes many years to develop that software and add features, and any big features they start on today won’t be done for years
4. DAZ doesn’t have unlimited funds
5. They have to please their investors with a healthy profit or they won’t have any more investors.
6. DAZ’s only real ‘edge’ in the market is its ability to handle characters and premade content. Other than that, the software is, in general, not real impressive (in most hobbyists’ view) compared to what’s out there. ie, Blender.
7. It’s also pretty clear that DAZ has turned course toward content, not software.

Now, I’m sure there are others, but that alone tells you that it’s not about who loves Carrara, it’s about whether Carrara can give them a profit, considering that the cost for development is huge (especially with all the duplicate and disparate functionality), as is the time it takes to realize a return on that investment.

You guys can argue until you turn purple about which is better, who loves Carrara, whether they should sell it, and on and on, but until you can figure out how Carrara, they way it is TODAY, can give DAZ a good profit, then all that talk is just talk. It takes YEARS and lots of money to develop cool features. YEARS. If they start today it will be YEARS from now before it will be ready for market.

It all comes down to money. Personally, I don’t see how Carrara can bring in any significant revenue when D|S, a very similar application (in most hobbyist’s view) is totally free. You can argue about plugins and hair and dynamics and all that, but the vast majority of DAZ’s market couldn’t care less. They’ll take the free software that allows them to play with content over that fancy stuff that costs $250 (or more) any day. Sure, there are exceptions, but the majority of the 3D market is guys who just want to play with cool software, especially if it’s free.

Which, BTW, is why content is such a brilliant and wonderful market to have a semi-monopoly on. People like cheap stuff that gives them instant rewards, and that’s exactly what content does. Software, on the other hand, is a huge pain in the butt to manage and develop.

And, like I’ve said before, if they did sell it, the company who buys it has the same problems to deal with. But they probably won’t have revenue from content to fall back on, so they’d be even stricter on requiring that Carrara provides a good profit on its own.

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Posted: 31 December 2012 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 114 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 31 December 2012 04:31 AM

And, like I’ve said before, if they did sell it, the company who buys it has the same problems to deal with. But they probably won’t have revenue from content to fall back on, so they’d be even stricter on requiring that Carrara provides a good profit on its own.

Exactly. That’s why whatever company silly enough to buy it would have to charge more. At least with DAZ, their main business is content and if that’s doing well, they can throw a little money toward the software, especially if it’s selling, because it’s now a promotional tool of sorts (look what you can do with our content). And at least there are folks at DAZ somewhat familiar with the code, a new company would have to start all over and Carrara wouldn’t be Carrara.

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Posted: 31 December 2012 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 115 ]
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Yeah, if some other company were to approach me (if I were Mr. DAZ) and ask me why they should invest money in purchasing the Carrara code from me, and what does it have that people (ie, the average hobbyist, which is DAZ’s market) would want, I’d have real tough time.

Well, it does content. But so does free D|S, and so does Poser.

Well, it is pretty comprehensive, since it has a lot of built-in environment stuff.

And it’s got some fancy stuff that the average hobbyist probably doesn’t care much about. And a nice interface that we all like a lot. Which unfortunately doesn’t sell software (“Buy Carrara: You’ll Just LOVE the Interface !!!”)

And on the flip side, it’s pretty sucky in terms of cool ‘buzzword’ features (unbiased renderers, fluids, cloth/dynamics, fire and smoke, etc.)

And they’d have to invest a lot of years to bring it up to speed, and probably by the time they brought it up to today’s standards it would already be 5 years (or more) out of date.

And like I’ve said over and over, the worst part is that as soon as Blender can work well with content, and maybe gets rid of that ‘bad interface’ reputation that is still haunting it, Carrara is suddenly, for the most part, out of the picture. Blender has all of those cool buzzword features, and they’re implemented really well for the most part. 

So, if you were an investor, would you buy that software?

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Posted: 31 December 2012 06:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 116 ]
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DAZ is DAZ. DAZ has a completely different situation from other companies. It has investors who provide funds. Limited funds. It has competition, probably a different market than other companies, different resources (people, skills, products, etc.). And as with most companies, goals change. Sometimes overnight. So what worked yesterday might not work tomorrow.

Investors invest in a company in order to gain a financial “Return” on their initial investment,..
they don’t just give a company money to spend.

If the company isn’t performing as the investor expected, then the investor withdraws their funding…at any time.

All companies in all markets have competition. ...

you should think a lot about things before you write them,. especially if you have no idea what you’re talking about.

All companies have different individuals (Staff) but with similar resources (Skill-sets) EG accounts, payroll, etc, and most companies have different product ranges or services from other companies.  (that’s how we have competition and a diversified marketplace)

I’m not sure what point you’‘re making here.  other than,.. Daz3D is a business, with investors and staff, selling products in a marketplace.

Thankfully “Most” companies do not change their goals overnight. and I don’t see Daz3D changing their goals,.
Can you explain what you mean by this ?

perhaps you can list a few of the companies which you’re basing this assumption on,. or is it purely speculative conjecture.

What is clear today is this:

1. DAZ is a real small company that has a lot of software to work on (ESPECIALLY for such a small company)
2. A lot of the software has duplicate functionality, and it is written very differently and requires guys who can deal with very different and very specialized software…not easy to find
3. It takes many years to develop that software and add features, and any big features they start on today won’t be done for years
4. DAZ doesn’t have unlimited funds
5. They have to please their investors with a healthy profit or they won’t have any more investors.
6. DAZ’s only real ‘edge’ in the market is its ability to handle characters and premade content. Other than that, the software is, in general, not real impressive (in most hobbyists’ view) compared to what’s out there. ie, Blender.
7. It’s also pretty clear that DAZ has turned course toward content, not software.

Point one is intended to suggest that a SMALL company is at a natural disadvantage,. this is a wrong assumption based on ignorance of reality and has no basis in fact. ...some small companies are world leaders in their field.

Point two is another wrongly assumed disadvantage.
look in any store at any product range, and you will find competitive products with similar features being sold , sometimes by the same manufacturer under a different brand name (Market diversity).

Point three dismisses the facts that Daz have built Daz Studio (to be independent of any possible “third party software developments) while continuing to develop Hexagon Bryce and Carrara, and in the last year have added genesis technology to the main two figure handling applications DS and Carrara.  (both of which are still in development)

Point four,. who does .?

Point five,. Investors can withdraw at any time. but that doesn’t prevent a company seeking alternative investors or other avenues of funding.

Point Six,. All the other “professional” 3D software makers have not added support for Poser/Daz Content to their programs, despite being larger and better funded,...( they rely on third party (plugins) to offer limited functionality) (or expect their users to be making their own models from scratch)
This really is a massive market advantage for Daz3D and it’s library of (ready to go) content, which makes it instantly more accessible to the first time buyer, or the Student on a budget.

Point seven,. unfortunately shows a complete lack on understanding of Daz3D as a business, and it’s development history.

Daz3D started as “Zygote”, and made 3D models,. they sold / licensed some of these models to the owners of Poser, as part of the bundled content,. Since that time,. Daz3D has developed into a “Retailer” of content which is now mostly made by other people (published artists)
Daz Started as Content suppliers, and have remained content suppliers,. but have also acquired some 3D software, in order to add a better foundation to their company by insuring they have their own software which their content library will continue to work in.

So, before work on Daz Studio beta began, Daz3D where content suppliers, and that was, and remains,.. the “CORE” of their business.
They were not software developers,. who also sold content..
They are content retailers who also now develop their own software, and by doing so they avoid being tied to any changes in the development of third party software by another company.

If you’re going to delve into a debate about how a company should be run or how it should market it’s products,. at least have some relevant and factual information, some practical experience, or actual knowledge of what you’re saying,. otherwise it’s as useful and relevant as the rambling nonsense spouted by a village idiot. 
it’s also potentially damaging as it can become the source of other speculative rumours.

The real fact is that NONE of what you’re assuming is either “Clear” or based on any reality,.
instead, you’re assuming things,. .....and apparently believing them to be correct, or at least, asking the reader to accept them as correct statements of fact.

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Posted: 31 December 2012 06:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 117 ]
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HEY ANDY !!! How are you?

Wow, and everyone was saying I had some beef with YOU. Sounds like the other way around.

Andy, I’m not going to respond, because I know it will just turn into a long drawn out battle over, well, whatever.

I’ll just wish you a very Happy New Year !!!  smile  cheese  smile

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Posted: 31 December 2012 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 118 ]
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I have to question just how valued owr patronage is. Apparently it isn’t valuable enough to be kept informed.

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Posted: 31 December 2012 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 119 ]
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Well if it makes anyone feel better…I upgraded (though did not get the serial code yet), because I know what Carrara can do, and I was re-inspired by Howie’s new stuff.  smile  Kevin does make a point about making good stuff will get folks to buy.  If people buy, Daz makes a profit, and that perhaps sends a message that they should hire an intern. smile 

I think Carrara Cafe was geared at that goal.  Daz should really get the Galleries back working correctly.  Seeing what you can do (in video, animation and render), really highlights Carrara’s capabilities, which is real good for many hobbyists.

IMO, it should be something that highlights Carrara’s strengths…that other low cost options are lacking (like surface replicator, particles, trees, ability to change something quick in model room, etc)  Straight content/posed renders really don’t sell it, based on what someone can do in poser or ds (which also have options for octane and lux)

Anyway…waiting for serial code, and then to jump back in.

(on a side note, I did not realize Bryce had procedural terrains, that was mentioned…I really like that in Vue, need to re-check that out)

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Posted: 31 December 2012 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 120 ]
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Serial code is in your account, here at Daz3d!
Have fun with it!

Oh… and the SN for 8.5 beta is in the first post of the stickied beta thread, here at the forum.
Cheers 3d.

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