Studio 4.5 - Why do you have to change the way things Work??

StevieDStevieD Posts: 96
edited December 1969 in Daz Studio Discussion

I finally figured out the method to save Pose Presets so I could work it perfectly and use it to animate different figures in a very flexible way.

Then came Studio 4.5. It does not work the way it used to. So far I can't get it to work at all.

And why does it save Pose Presets in duf format and not dsb format like it used to? As a side note, the old dsb Pose Presets that I made in 4 do still work. I would be really mad if all the poses I made before didn't still work..



  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 17,301
    edited December 1969

    To save Pose Presets in .dsa/.dsb format, use Save As > Deprecated > Pose Preset.

  • StevieDStevieD Posts: 96
    edited December 1969

    So what does Deprecated mean and why is there a save pose at all? or for that matter everything appears to be duplicated,,, why??

    You really need to put out a manual. Some things just don't make sense.

    Does this Deprecated Pose Preset work like the old pose preset did? I'll find out in a minute because I'm going to go there after I write this but I mean,,, really. I need to pose just the neck or just the waist or just a finger. I finally figured it out last version but it didn't look like it was possible when I tried it an hour ago.. I hope so..

    Thank You,

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    StevieD said:
    So what does Deprecated mean and why is there a save pose at all? or for that matter everything appears to be duplicated,,, why??

    Depracated means that it is an old way of doing something that will be dropped, in the future and is not the preferred method of currently doing things.

    Does this Deprecated Pose Preset work like the old pose preset did? I'll find out in a minute because I'm going to go there after I write this but I mean,,, really. I need to pose just the neck or just the waist or just a finger. I finally figured it out last version but it didn't look like it was possible when I tried it an hour ago.. I hope so..

    Thank You,

    The 'deprecated' version IS the old save.

    And the reason for the things work better moving forward.

    The new format is more flexible and can be used, with the DSON importer, to allow the current and future generation stuff to work with Poser (and possibly other software).

    Think of it this way...DS 4.0 is the Windows ME of the DAZ world...the sort of transition of what was to what is now...and isn't going to see much support. It's already living on borrowed time and is passed it's prime (more than six months past).

  • StevieDStevieD Posts: 96
    edited December 1969

    I think I get it., It does make sense but the problem was that in about an hour or three of trying to get it to work, I couldn't get it to work,,, at all. After I was told to look in Deprecated, I saw Pose Preset, used it the way I've been doing it just last week, and everything worked just fine. Why is that if this is progress?

    In the new version,, I couldn't check off things that I didn't want to set in the preset. They would all interact and turn off things that I wanted to set or else turn on everything, including limbs that I didn't want to be recorded..... But the worst part is that the poses I saved from the new Pose Preset,,, no matter how I configured it, didn't change the pose of the character.. didn't budge one bit.

    I must admit, I couldn't care less if it works with Poser. I don't use Poser. I have no intentions of using Poser. I've settled on DAZ Studio, invested a lot of money in DS items and that's all I care about. I think it's what I've been looking for, for a long time. I think Genesis is amazing! It looks so good. The problem is there is no, or very old documentation for the program. I am just getting into this after a long time of doing other things and it's hard to learn something, if after I spend weeks trying to figure it out,, it changes with no explanation of why or how. That's a big problem. I still am trying to learn the basics and everything is moving around without any kind of explanation.

    I've looked at all or most of the tutorials and I have the last manual made for it but almost noting looks like or is where it is on my program. So you can imagine how frustrating this can be.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    I can only say,, lets ask here, what you want to save about each case,,
    because there are many option, so you need to choose which parameter want to save.

    then do you try to use option which can select what you want,, extract tree etc,,?

    you can get answer from here, not daz documents, I believe.

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  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi StevieD...

    There is no reason that you can't continue to use the older save presets if you prefer, but...

    If your using Genesis, then using the new .duf Presets is better... and they are actually easier to use than the old presets...

    Just as kitakoredaz pointed out...

    The key is to use the Options Menu... Using Check Only > Check All Modified Only, and then Expand > Expand All Checked, this will expand the tree to show only the checked parameters, then you can un-check any that you don't want to include...

    The old preset dialog doesn't have the option to expand the tree... you have to click your way through every branch...

    The other thing to remember is that the 'white' checks are basically markers along the tree... the 'colored' check marks are the actual parameter values to include... this means that if you, say, check the neck as a colored check mark, then all of the parameters of the neck AND it's children will be the head, eyes, etc...

    The same is true for un-checking... un-checking a 'white' check mark will deselect that parameter or node AND all of it's children...

    Anyways... not trying to convert you, just thought I would point out a benefit to the new save preset...

    Hope this helps... :)

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  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 2012

    when I inaltal ds 4.5, I think need to make only duf files, for futrue.

    then I understand most of old dsa dsb files can work correctly,

    but I think, my handmade dsa or dsb preset sometimes, can not work as same as before,

    maybe I needed to clealy understand how to save them, but the prolblem is before,
    it work without problem.

    it is funny because,, some pose preset can apply poze without move genesis root node (or hip,,)
    but some pose presets duf apply poze and move genesis to start point ^^;

    but,, these are product which I get in daz shope released as new duf files .

    I think some vendor can not understand perfectly about these preset too.

    that means normal user can not undersatnd perfecly about thesee preset.

    but it seems naturall, because daz had never offered the documents about detail how to save them.

    if you set your figure in building, by translate root, then hope to apply preset.
    when you apply it, genesis run way or disappear from the buliding,, ^^;
    they stop exploer .

    I may need not make bug report or support ticket about these problems,,, but
    some vendor understand clearly, so they have two pose presets about each, on zero point, or not transltate.

    I believe, need not transltate root genesis node. not need to save the root genesis positon.
    but some product tranlstate genesis without caution and ofcourse there is no discribe in read me.
    so if user need to memorize, which preset file are how work? ^^;

    Post edited by kitakoredaz on
  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969


    When I first started making Pose Presets, I made that mistake alot... ;-P

    In my case it was because I was totally clueless... I had just started working in 3D and didn't know a node from a .cr2...

    When I saw what was happening to presets I made, I dove in a figured out where I was going wrong... now it only happens to me when I don't pay attention or I'm half asleep... %-P

    As far as purchased pose sets, well... I won't say that they could be mistakes or that they where intended to be that way... only the vendor knows...

    nicci... :)

  • StevieDStevieD Posts: 96
    edited December 1969

    Well I just spent an hour or more responding to you both and explaining what I am doing and what problems I am having, but I lost it all because I had to log in again and the forum dumped my response.. I can't deal with it now. I'll try to remember what I said and redo it.


  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,891
    edited December 1969

    When writing a long post, it may be better to do it off-line in a text editor, and then login to the forums and use cut 'n' paste to post your message. I never usually have any problems with the site, but then again, I don't usually write llong posts, maybe one day :)

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 1969

    Yes,, I often write something with one hour or more ^^; then when I upload it , I can not upload,
    every my writing has gone away ^^; so Jimmy is right.

    it sometimes cause me crazy more,,when I struggle with problem and feel bad,, then serch answer here,,
    but I know,, it it my mistake not to save it as text,, ^^;

    anyway,,, Hope StevieD can enjoy ds 4.5 . so hope you ask problems which you struggle with,,

    I hope to learn with U. (I have learned from april dazstudio,,but everytime I need to learn again and again something new,,
    oh,,, I hope everything become more simple and easy,, :shut: I just shot and make exciting sean with figure ^^;
    waht a difficlult world,,, I have thought 3D is just happy world like game playing ^^; )

    anyway I know,, enjoy is best %-P

  • StevieDStevieD Posts: 96
    edited December 1969

    OK, that was horrible.. I'll try to remember what I said yesterday.

    I must admit, I didn't check the Options Menu. I didn't think of it but in my defense. It's not very often that I find things pertinent to what I am doing in the options menu. Sometimes yes, but usually not. What's usually there are stupid things pertaining to the window. Like window options or dock/undock, the tab or expand all. That being said, OK it has expand/contract the tree. I suppose that's good but I didn't mind expanding each thing I needed along the tree as I need it. You get into a rhythm and you only expose what you are working on. With expand all you have a mess of items going way past the confines of the window that you have to sort through and hundreds of items most of which you probably don't even need all at once. That being said I could get used to that. It's not that difficult once you understand what everything means. I don't.

    The other things in there - "check all or only translations, transformations, rotations",,,etc. I'm not sure how many times you want to check or uncheck all of something. Usually you only have certain things you need to check which involve both or a combination of rotation, translation,,, etc.. So I don't see how useful most of that is,,, Maybe "check or uncheck all modified". T hat sounds promising but how does it know when it was modified? I'll have to experiment with that to see what it does.

    My problem is there seems to be many redundant items in the DUF "Save Pose Preset" that I have no idea what they do. I mean the number of combinations of things in there is probably in the millions. I was able to make sense of the DSA/DSB "Save Pose Preset". You go to the item you want to have saved and check it on.. I found, over much experimentation, that you have to be careful to go just so far or else! Maybe you want just the fingers to move but the whole hand will move because you include the wrist and things like that,,,, but I did finally get it right so I can control what I wanted. You know,, you position the hands to a pose that works no matter what pose the rest of the body is in. One does not effect the other and the body does not change just because you apply the hand preset. To answer one of Nicci's statements about white checks and colored checks you mentioned moving the neck and have the eyes be included along with it and that's why the eye check is colored by default. Well the way I use poses, I may very well want the neck to move to the position it was when I saved the pose but I may NOT want the eyes to be in the same position that they were when I saved the pose.

    There are things that are duplicated all through out the list. It has pose controls but they are very specific. Expressions, a whole list of expressions that you can do elsewhere with saving the settings of the face alone,,, and who knows how that particular expression setting will effect the particular morph of the face you apply it to? The extremities are also above in the list in the tree form, similar to the DSA/DSB Pose but works slightly different. I can't get precisely the combinations I want. You turn off some things and other things turn off that you need. Then there is also something called General transforms. No where is there any kind of explanation of all this. After I finish this post, I'm going to try again and see if I can figure it out. It'd be nice if I had a manual.

    The other thing is that OK, I did try the DUF "Save Pose Preset but it did't work when applied to the model. I tried many combinations, even though I couldn't understand what exactly did what and I couldn't get some of the combinations that I wanted. None of the presets I saved in DUF had any effect on the Genesis model I had just used to save the preset with. And yes I did change the model before I applied the pose to it. So that's part of my problem.

    This will give you an idea of what I am doing. I am making a band and animating it behind a song, concert style. Drums, Bass, Guitars, etc. I know I'm crazy. Right now I am working on the drummer. The drummer uses all his/her limbs at the same time doing different things. Most of the right hand hit is done with the wrist but the arm is in various positions whether hitting the cymbal or HiHat. The way I have been animating it works like this. I make poses of different positions of different parts of the body, so I can mix a certain position of the arm for example with a different wrist movement. When the drummer plays, the body is doing the same thing but also different things. It will be keeping the beat while looking at a different musician, then looking back at what she is doing on the drums. All four limbs are doing different things all at the same time. You can't have one pose for the position of the entire body because at different times the limbs do different things. Same with the guitar player. The fingers and some what the arms are making the chords but the face and legs could be doing different things at the same time or different times. For thing reason you need very selected poses for the various positions and the position at start and end of the movement. One position of what ever part can not effect any other part of the body.

    So using the new DUF Save Pose Preset, How can this very specific pose get saved? It hasn't been working the same way that the "old way" does. I haven't been able to make that work.

    Thank You

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi StevieD...

    Okay, that's a long post... but perfectly understandable, especially when something is frustrating...

    I'll try to clear some things up for you...

    When using the options menu, use the Check Modified Only, and the Expand Modified Only options to start... this will keep the screen cluter down and only check off the properties that have a value other than zero...

    The 'colored' checkmarks will indicate that a value is present for that property, group or node...

    If you look at the tree you will see icons next to the boxes... a bone for a node, "G" for a group, and "P" for a property... the property corresponds to a parameter in the Parameter tab...

    So if a 'colored' checkmark is next to a bone (node) then everything in that branch is selected for inclusion, next to a group "G" then everything in that group is included...etc...

    My example of checking the neck to a 'colored' checkmark, would then include any value, whether zero or not, and would have an effect on using the pose... such as, if the values for the eyes were zero in the preset, then when the preset is applied to a figure that has the eyes posed, it would set the eyes to zero, because the preset had been saved with the eyes checked at a value of zero...

    That's why I suggested using the Check Modified Only and Expand Modified Only... that way you can see where all the 'colored' checkmarks are, and un-check any that you don't want to include... also multiple clicking on a box will shuffle between 'white' and 'colored' checkmarks...

    General Transforms are the same as the General group in the Parameters pane... x,y,z translation, rotation and scale... for a figure like Genesis... the rotation properties are used for posing the figures body parts... Bend, Twist and Side to Side...

    The reason the Expressions show in the tree is because they are actually Pose Controls not morphs... and some users do use the Pose Controls to make Pose Presets... remember, anything that affects a General Transform can have a value...

    Now in your example of your band, if you only want to create a Preset for just one part of a posed figure, like the hand or arm, then it would probably be easier to not use the Options Menu, just un-check the root and then expand the tree manually to the nodes that you want to include... then check only the properties "P" that you want included... DS will create the 'white' checkmarks up the tree for you...

    Each node (bone) will have one or two things listed below it in the tree... a child node and a General group "G" which will contain the transform properties...

    The layout and some of the wording is different in the .duf Preset than in the .dsa/dsb preset, but they do the same thing...

    Again, if you find it easier to use the .dsa/dsb presets, then keep using them, after all, the goal is to create your project...not get a migrane...

    Hopefully this was easy to understand, but...

    If you need further help or more clarification, please don't hesitate to ask...

    nicci... :)

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 3,526
    edited December 2012

    oh my gosh,, I did same mistake,, so my writing has gone away ^^;
    yes Jimmy is right ,,,

    then,, I just say somethings about duf poze preset what i learn,,

    1, on default, now in ds it seems check on all property.
    (before beta,, at default, it dd not save the zero parameter,, so cause some trouble )

    that means, you can save the figure pozing about everything as it were. without morph.

    2 about transform (translation, rotation, scale)

    lets make it simple , just think about each value.

    a) Translation

    there seems many parameter for translation, but almost are empty.
    so we need not care much. important translation node is root and hip only.

    whether we check all translation, or not, most of them has not meaning,
    but make it simple, decide what you want. or do not care about translation.
    after that, think only about hip and root.

    edit (I mistake word, general ,, now change ,, "root" ^^;)

    if we seve pose preset with these translation value check on, it must keep the value.
    that means, if you make pose preset on the zero point,
    when you apply the pose preset, your actor move the point.
    if you hope not so, you need to check it off about root node translation, or hip node translation.

    hip or root which node should be recorded,, it depend on how you move your actor when make poze.
    so we may better, decide the way how translate the actor, by ourselfs.

    sometimes use root, sometimes use hip at random may cause problem, and it make us crazy ^^;

    b) about rotation

    it is key value for rigged figure pozing. but I understand as you said, we can not remember which node we used,
    when pozing ,,usually ^^; I like simple life. so at first I just check on all rotation.
    after that about root and hip, we think carefully , we need rotation value or not. basically we must need hip rotation.
    so we may just think about general rotation.

    then,,if we hope to mix two pozing, not overwrite poze, we need to think about each node.
    but It seems lare case. first we make pose preset which memorize every current rotation,
    then if we need, save it again as pose preset, then at this time, carefully plan about each node rotation.
    if hope to make only hand move pose preset, we may need check off every rotation, after that save only rotation of hand and children.

    c) about scale.

    if we hope to make animation with scale changing we must need to check on scale.
    but if we hope to apply the poze for every shape of actor, we need to check off scale.

    eg if I make pose preset about default scale genesis, and record poze with genesis scale too.

    when I apply the pose preset to small size human which you made just change genesis scale, he suddenly growing up ^^;
    I believe we may not hope so. .

    but there is exception, if the scale value is reffered (by ERC) to shape morph , and the morh change the scale,
    pose preset may not change the scale value which decide by shape morph. eg if we use kid morph, .(or V4shape for genesis)
    it change genesis scale, by erc.

    if we apply the pose preset which record scale 100% , it may not change the kid scale.
    for make it simple, usually we need not record scale I think.
    if we make pose preset by fgiure shape which changed directly scale and record scale too ,
    we need to carefully use the preset, which may change suddlenly your figure curernt scale.

    Post edited by kitakoredaz on
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