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Does Carrara Pro do it all?
Posted: 20 December 2012 09:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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why don’t they update the manual along with the program?  even just an addon with new functions and features ....Just curious

because they already have our money that’s why

that’s why they are updating Carrar to Genesis compatability

for more of our money


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Posted: 21 December 2012 05:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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0oseven - 20 December 2012 09:27 PM

I dont think anyone “refused’ to read the manuals that are available. They probably have read them. What users are asking for is an updated manual meaning, i’m sure, they want the manual to include the new features and changes since the last publication   Even a supplement would suffice.

We’ve had some very long, drawn out discussions of manuals here, and I think it’s pretty clear that, when it comes to manuals, there is no “they”.

There are many different opinions on what the manual ‘should’ be.

There are many people who actually think it should teach you not only what a user manual normally teaches (what all the buttons do) but also the basics of 3D. In effect, they want something that tells them everything they need to know, so they can sit down with the software, starting with virtually no knowledge, and do whatever they want. People have actually said that. 

And many are also adamant about not wanting to rely on external training to learn the basics of 3D graphics. They will use external videos to learn about Carrara, but really want all that to come from DAZ. And when you suggest they pick up a book on general 3D graphics, people get real upset. Unless it’s Jeremy Birn’s book on lighting. Which isn’t even a book on general 3D, but it’s the most folks will discuss. 

And clearly, based upon questions that get asked here on a regular basis, many people don’t read the manual. Many. And in fact, when anyone suggests that someone read the manual, they get trounced on for being cruel and unusual.

Yeah, DAZ should update the manual. No question. And, BTW, as I recall, someone from DAZ poked his head in here and said they feel it needs a complete re-write, which would take a very long time. So at least from their perspective it’s not just a matter of a clarifying addendum.

But I strongly suspect that if most people learned the basics of 3D first, and actually read the existing manual, the cries for an updated manual would die down to a mere murmur. Or a quiet whisper. Or maybe just lips moving.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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I agree with most of what you’re saying,.. but this part is wrong..

BTW, as I recall, someone from DAZ poked his head in here and said they feel it needs a complete re-write, which would take a very long time. So at least from their perspective it’s not just a matter of a clarifying addendum.

The basic functions and features of Carrara have not changed since version 5,. so it doesn’t need a complete re-write.
what it needs is the New features added,. and the problem with doing that is that some of the new features are not completed.

Daz_Kat asked for volunteers to help with updating and checking the manual ,.. there were a total of three volunteers,. including myself,. but unfortunately, real world events meant that I had to back out.
the bulk of the manual is there in text format and it should be possible to create an on-line manual from that which could be added to and updated as features change,.

But, some people want to have a Physical copy of the manual instead of on-line doc’s or PDF,. and in that case that’s their choice (and Cost).. to have it printed so they can sit and read it a they work,. but that’s also where a manual needs to be “Complete” (before it’s release) and not have a series of addendum’s. 

Daz Also asked for volunteers to help with the DS manuals and tut’s, which has lead to a team of DS users making things like the “Learning strips” part of the DS interface. and having subtitled video tutorials.
but, DS has more users than Carrara, and obviously more are willing to help make things better for everyone else.

 

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Posted: 21 December 2012 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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But I strongly suspect that if most people learned the basics of 3D first, and actually read the existing manual, the cries for an updated manual would die down to a mere murmur. Or a quiet whisper. Or maybe just lips moving.
 

you not read it then Joe?

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Posted: 21 December 2012 07:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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wendy♥catz - 21 December 2012 07:01 AM

you not read it then Joe?

The slap heard around the world…I wonder what the noise that woke me up was… tongue wink

The Carrara manual is in a piteous state.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 20 December 2012 08:49 PM
0oseven - 20 December 2012 06:36 PM

Very Good Joe !

Anyone else have an analogy of their experience with carrara ?

Cute.

In any case, regarding renderers, I’m guessing that nowdays what most consider “good” renderers are the ones with the cool and fancy features that update their renders while you watch and make changes, and you can get those realistic renders real easily, and do it ‘a lot faster’ than those other renderers.

I doubt that a careful consideration of the quality and abilities of the renderers on the market, including comparisons with the non-fancy ones, is really the issue.

So yeah, Carrara’s renderer is ancient and not nearly as good. But DAZ Studio is good because of that cool render plugin.

Actually, my original post was precisely considering the quality and abilities of Carrara’s render engine against some of the other full-feature packages, and I think it is lagging pretty far behind in terms of quality. “Fancy” features are usually useful, so I welcome them too.

I love Carrara, I just think that the renderer is lacking in quality when it comes mainly to sub-pixel anti-aliasing as well as GI, motion blur and post filters. Go look at galleries from the competition - the render quality and realism speaks for itself and is why Carrara is not really used for broadcast or film production.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 09:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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That’s not why Carrara isn’t used by the big boys. That has more to do with pipeline issues, and no pro level development and support team to help a big studio if they did use it. Carrara is perfectly fine for smaller shops and is used at TV stations and smaller production companies. The quality of the renders of any package depend a lot on the skill and talent of the person setting things up. There are more users of the other competing packages so there are many better renders for those packages because of that. There are good Carrara renders out there but a very small group of people doing them. You could probably count them on both hands. So it really boils down to the folks using the software and knowledge of how to make something look good in Carrara and their skill and talent. I’ve seen bad renders out of the big packages, too.

But for content users, you have a very limited number of packages to easily get things done - Carrara, DAZ Studio, Poser and Bryce, with the most pro features being in Carrara, and DAZ Studio if you get the plugins. But Carrara is the one to get if you want to expand and do a better job using content. DAZ doesn’t charge enough for Carrara to get all the spiffy render features that the bigger packages have. There’s a reason why you can’t get LW for $800 anymore, just as an example. If you want DAZ to put in all those features, then you should expect to pay for the development costs. But they probably won’t even contemplate that because the Carrara user list is so small, compared even to Studio and Poser, they still wouldn’t make any money.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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evilproducer - 20 December 2012 08:39 PM
Kevin Sanderson - 20 December 2012 10:37 AM

....This is how misinformation starts. Carrara, Bryce and DAZ Studio all have DIFFERENT render engines. Carrara’s is more up to date than Bryce’s and DAZ Studio uses 3Delight which is the same core render engine used in the pro expensive version….


True, but regarding the 3Delight renderer, from what I’ve read it is extremely hobbled because they give D/S away. I don’t know if D/S Pro has a more full featured version or not.

It has features that are more hidden and is usually one version behind in Studio compared to the industrial strength version that goes for the big bucks. But you can access many of the “hidden” features through the plugins, especially the ones by omnifreaker, which give you access to things like raytracing settings. To use 3Delight as it is in the studio world, you need to be a code warrior. What Studio’s 3Delight does give you is ease of use and the ability to use multiple cores in one computer (I believe is at least 16 maybe more—seems I recall someone uses it with a 32 core beast) which you have to pay through the nose to get in the pro version which is really designed for render farms.

I also seem to recall in the old forum that DNA had tweaked/improved the version now being used by DAZ so textures could be shared between DAZ Studio and the free renderer that DNA provides to all.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 21 December 2012 09:11 AM

That’s not why Carrara isn’t used by the big boys. That has more to do with pipeline issues, and no pro level development and support team to help a big studio if they did use it. Carrara is perfectly fine for smaller shops and is used at TV stations and smaller production companies. The quality of the renders of any package depend a lot on the skill and talent of the person setting things up. There are more users of the other competing packages so there are many better renders for those packages because of that. There are good Carrara renders out there but a very small group of people doing them. You could probably count them on both hands. So it really boils down to the folks using the software and knowledge of how to make something look good in Carrara and their skill and talent. I’ve seen bad renders out of the big packages, too.

But for content users, you have a very limited number of packages to easily get things done - Carrara, DAZ Studio, Poser and Bryce, with the most pro features being in Carrara, and DAZ Studio if you get the plugins. But Carrara is the one to get if you want to expand and do a better job using content. DAZ doesn’t charge enough for Carrara to get all the spiffy render features that the bigger packages have. There’s a reason why you can’t get LW for $800 anymore, just as an example. If you want DAZ to put in all those features, then you should expect to pay for the development costs. But they probably won’t even contemplate that because the Carrara user list is so small, compared even to Studio and Poser, they still wouldn’t make any money.

All good points. Let me dial my sentiments back down to; I wish Carrara had a better quality renderer so that I don’t need to consider other packages.

I’m not so much a hobbyist as I use Carrara mostly for work, so I’m not saying it can’t perform, I just wish it was better… my company has the money to pay - maybe they should up the ante and price of the “Pro” version - we would certainly pay more.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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0oseven - 20 December 2012 09:27 PM

holly wetcircuit - 20 December 2012 07:01 PM

...there is valuable info in the manual. To refuse to read it because it is for C7 is silly.

I just HAVE to respond to this wink

I dont think anyone “refused’ to read the manuals that are available. They probably have read them…..

I’m just saying there are a few sections of the manual that are like:
“The WHIZ dial is used to control the quality of WHIZ in your renders. The Special option may me checked on or off to apply Special to the WHIZ…”

I’m not saying the manual is great, actually the opposite… There is SOME useful info in there (the explanation of the shader channels for instance tells you exactly what kind of info you can put in any channel, which channels are black/white which are color… etc) but a lot of it is also completely circular, like the author didn’t really know what the WHIZ was for either, and wrote some circular logic to fill out a paragraph….

I personally believe if anyone has READ the manual they would not be asking for MORE manual…. They would be a bit more neutral about the manual, saying: “Yes there is some info there and you should take a look, but really it is not the same as learning how or when to use a feature. And it won’t really teach you Carrara. It’s really more of a reference guide…”

The manual was written over more than a decade by several authors… It takes about 2 minutes to read a part of the manual (like the plant room, if there *is* even a section on plants), but you’ll still have to look up the word “Phillotaxy” to know what sort of thing you are controlling… When features are introduced we get great math/engineering words like “L-Systems” and “Eiger Angles”.... Which may actually help you understand what Carrara is doing under the hood better than the manual, but the manual doesn’t have that kind of info….

Anyway. I’ll stop derailing this thread…:P

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Posted: 21 December 2012 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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holly wetcircuit - 21 December 2012 02:14 PM

snip

Anyway. I’ll stop derailing this thread…:P

you mean it was ever on track?

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Posted: 21 December 2012 03:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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3DAGE - 21 December 2012 06:53 AM

I agree with most of what you’re saying,.. but this part is wrong..

BTW, as I recall, someone from DAZ poked his head in here and said they feel it needs a complete re-write, which would take a very long time. So at least from their perspective it’s not just a matter of a clarifying addendum.

Well, you can say it’s wrong, but I’m pretty sure it’s a fact. You can check the archives. I can’t recall who it was, but I’m pretty sure someone from DAZ said it needs to be rewritten. I recall discussing with someone about the manual, and that other person thought it would be a few months to get it done, and I said they couldnt’ even get an employee on board in a few months.

Now, if you’re arguing that you personally don’t think it needs a re-write, then okay.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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Garstor - 21 December 2012 07:28 AM
wendy♥catz - 21 December 2012 07:01 AM

you not read it then Joe?

The slap heard around the world…I wonder what the noise that woke me up was… tongue wink

The Carrara manual is in a piteous state.

Not sure why you consider that a slap, and why apparently you got such joy out of it, but anyway…

The answer is no, I haven’t read it from cover to cover. I check it when I need to, which is almost never. Because when I started with Carrara I had a very good understanding of 3D graphics, having been in the VFX industry for many years. I’ve taught some of this stuff, and worked with pretty much all of it, so with me it was just a matter of locating the buttons and switches for stuff that I already knew and understood.

When I have checked it, it usually answered my questions. I think.

And when 8.5 came out with Bullet, for example, and I wanted to try it out, I already understood the basics of cloth simulators, so it was just a matter of figuring out how DAZ had implemented and named the stuff that cloth simulators usually have. A manual would have been nice, but knowing the basics first made a manual less than necessary.

I’m not commenting on the state of the manual. I merely said that I recall that someone from DAZ said it needed to be rewritten. You’re free to check the archives to see if I’m mistaken, which I might be, but I’m pretty sure my thinker ain’t that broken. Although….

Personally, I couldn’t care less if they work on the manual. In fact, I think it’s pretty much the last thing they should work on. I’d rather have them spend time and money on features I need. The rest I can figure out on my own.

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Posted: 21 December 2012 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 21 December 2012 09:11 AM

That’s not why Carrara isn’t used by the big boys. That has more to do with pipeline issues, and no pro level development and support team to help a big studio if they did use it. Carrara is perfectly fine for smaller shops and is used at TV stations and smaller production companies. .

Exactly. Plus the fact that since it isn’t used in the industry, it isn’t used in the industry. If that makes sense.

Breaking into the industry and getting studios to change what they use, especially for the big studios, is freakin’ impossible, based on logistics alone. Changing software is really, really difficult, when you consider all it entails.

Ain’t gonna happen.

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Posted: 23 December 2012 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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3DAGE - 21 December 2012 06:53 AM

I agree with most of what you’re saying,.. but this part is wrong..

BTW, as I recall, someone from DAZ poked his head in here and said they feel it needs a complete re-write, which would take a very long time. So at least from their perspective it’s not just a matter of a clarifying addendum.

Ahh…okay…

In an effort to make sure I wasn’t losing my mind, I checked back to see if what I said was true. And yes, Mr. DAZ_Spooky said in Feb. of this year:

“You are missing some key points about the Carrara Manual.
1. It needs a top to bottom rewrite because it was written by the developers and many parts of it are seriously out of date. “

That was in a thread discussing Reality for Carrara, and Paolo and I were discussing the current state of the manual. So according to DAZ, it needs a complete rewrite, and your guess is as good as mine about how many years that will/would take.

However, on a bright note (at least IMO), they seem to recognize that a manual written by developers ain’ the best way to go, and it seems like their intent is to rectify that if they can….

Here’s the link: http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=162386&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=560

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