Altering textures - copyright question

TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
edited December 2012 in The Commons

Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.

Post edited by adamr001 on
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Comments

  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.


    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

  • BagletBaglet Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    The way to do this might be to make a layer (.png or .psd) that can then be added to the texture in a 2D program (as LIE has not been updated).

    So if you made say a scar that could be added to a skin texture, you could redistribute the scar for adding on, but not the texture itself.

  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    MLIE is included in 4.5 as a standard part of the pro bundle.

    201211291314_mlie.png
    446 x 455 - 23K
  • BagletBaglet Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Thanks. There's so much in Pro I'd never noticed it there.

    That's three useful things I've learned today which makes it a good day.

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 2012

    adamr001 said:
    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.
    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

    OK. Rather silly if you ask me, as I can create an almost identical texture from scratch and redistribute it freely.

    Post edited by Taozen on
  • JimmyC_2009JimmyC_2009 Posts: 8,344
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    adamr001 said:
    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.
    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

    OK. Rather silly if you ask me, as I can create an almost identical texture from scratch and redistribute it freely.


    It depends on the texture surely. I am sure that many of the textures that are included free with the DAZ 3D models take a great deal of time to create, and texturing is no simple task in my opinion.

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Either that or save the details you've made (ie. a scar) as a png without a background. that way people can layer those details in Gimp or photoshop... If you do it right, such details could then theoretically be added to other texture sets too. and as long as everything on your png is 'all yours' then you can distribute it. (Obviously you cant if it has some one else textures in it (in part or full)) You can only distribute what IS YOURS. :)

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,638
    edited December 2012

    Taozen said:
    adamr001 said:
    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.
    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

    OK. Rather silly if you ask me, as I can create an almost identical texture from scratch and redistribute it freely.


    It's not silly. Its the same principal as me slightly modifying somebody's clothing item and distributing it. Even though I can make it myself. Bottom line, it does not belong to you so you have no right distributing it.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    Baglet said:
    The way to do this might be to make a layer (.png or .psd) that can then be added to the texture in a 2D program (as LIE has not been updated).

    So if you made say a scar that could be added to a skin texture, you could redistribute the scar for adding on, but not the texture itself.


    In this case I've covered some holes in a jeans texture by pasting some other part of the texture over them. If I should do like you say I suppose I'll have to use some other source material then, otherwise it will also be a copyright infringement?

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,312
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    Baglet said:
    The way to do this might be to make a layer (.png or .psd) that can then be added to the texture in a 2D program (as LIE has not been updated).

    So if you made say a scar that could be added to a skin texture, you could redistribute the scar for adding on, but not the texture itself.


    In this case I've covered some holes in a jeans texture by pasting some other part of the texture over them. If I should do like you say I suppose I'll have to use some other source material then, otherwise it will also be a copyright infringement?

    That is correct.

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    adamr001 said:
    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.
    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

    OK. Rather silly if you ask me, as I can create an almost identical texture from scratch and redistribute it freely.

    It depends on the texture surely. I am sure that many of the textures that are included free with the DAZ 3D models take a great deal of time to create, and texturing is no simple task in my opinion.


    True, but i'm only considering the legal aspects here.

    If I alter some textures of a product in a way that improves them and give them away for free, it might actually help selling more copies of the original product. So it might actually be in DAZ' own interest to allow it.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,822
    edited December 1969

    There are many of us who make textures for Daz Products and distribute, but we do make them completely from scratch, we never alter other peoples textures.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,312
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:

    If I alter some textures of a product in a way that improves them and give them away for free, it might actually help selling more copies of the original product. So it might actually be in DAZ' own interest to allow it.

    Daz loves it when you do that, give away free stuff that makes their products better. But it has to be 100% all your own work/content. Or at least you have to have the rights to said content. In this case you don't.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,312
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    There are many of us who make textures for Daz Products and distribute, but we do make them completely from scratch, we never alter other peoples textures.

    Well to be clear here, you can make things from scratch or use content you have permission to distribute and reuse. For example merchant resource textures are fair game as well as other content people share and state can be redistributed.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 2,013
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    Taozen said:
    adamr001 said:
    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.
    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

    OK. Rather silly if you ask me, as I can create an almost identical texture from scratch and redistribute it freely.

    It depends on the texture surely. I am sure that many of the textures that are included free with the DAZ 3D models take a great deal of time to create, and texturing is no simple task in my opinion.


    True, but i'm only considering the legal aspects here.

    If I alter some textures of a product in a way that improves them and give them away for free, it might actually help selling more copies of the original product. So it might actually be in DAZ' own interest to allow it.

    Ok, let me hit a bit closer to home. How about I reverse-engineer the code for the programs you plan on selling, make improvements to that, then redistribute it? I'm sure you'll allow that, if I apply the same level of logic. You're OK with that, right?

    I'm pretty sure you'll be trying to contact a lawyer to stop me from doing that. Just like DAZ would stop you from modifying their items and redistiributing it.

    If it isn't yours, then you can't redistribute it, period. Show your improvements through work you've done yourself; don't modify and redistribute. It can't be much clearer than that.

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    Taozen said:
    adamr001 said:
    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.
    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

    OK. Rather silly if you ask me, as I can create an almost identical texture from scratch and redistribute it freely.

    It's not silly. Its the same principal as me slightly modifying somebody's clothing item and distributing it. Even though I can make it myself. Bottom line, it does not belong to you so you have no right distributing it.


    In this particular case I think it is. The whole idea of copyright is to prevent someone doing domething that causes a loss in the original creator's income. As long as you don't do that, I don't see a problem. In some cases it might even benefit the original author making extensions that improves his product so he sells more copies.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,822
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    There are many of us who make textures for Daz Products and distribute, but we do make them completely from scratch, we never alter other peoples textures.

    Well to be clear here, you can make things from scratch or use content you have permission to distribute and reuse. For example merchant resource textures are fair game as well as other content people share and state can be redistributed.



    Yes agreed I do use Merchant resources as well as making my own "fabrics". As long as they are Merch resources that allow them to be used for freebies.

    What I never do is use the Vendors original texture, or any part of it.

    I would never even think of altering someone else's texture either. After all, quite apart from the fact that it is his/her interllectual property, I think that if the vendor had wanted the texture done that way, then he or she would have probably done it that way themselves.

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 2012

    Ok, let me hit a bit closer to home. How about I reverse-engineer the code for the programs you plan on selling, make improvements to that, then redistribute it? I'm sure you'll allow that, if I apply the same level of logic. You're OK with that, right?

    I'd actually appreciate if you'd do that, as long as what you're making only can be used by people who already have bought my program.
    Which is the case with textures - they only work for people who already own the original product. The original creater don't lose anything - not even if I use his own textures as source material for new textures. He might even sell more products because of it.

    Post edited by Taozen on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 2,013
    edited December 1969

    Taozen said:
    Zev0 said:
    Taozen said:
    adamr001 said:
    Taozen said:
    Is it allowed to redistribute (for free) a texture included with a DAZ product, which you have altered slightly? It can only be used by people who have purchased the same product anyway, so I can't see anyone would lose anything by doing this.
    No. Redistribution is never allowed.

    OK. Rather silly if you ask me, as I can create an almost identical texture from scratch and redistribute it freely.

    It's not silly. Its the same principal as me slightly modifying somebody's clothing item and distributing it. Even though I can make it myself. Bottom line, it does not belong to you so you have no right distributing it.


    In this particular case I think it is. The whole idea of copyright is to prevent someone doing domething that causes a loss in the original creator's income. As long as you don't do that, I don't see a problem. In some cases it might even benefit the original author making extensions that improves his product so he sells more copies.

    But there could be possibly a loss, however tangible, on the reference material used. Perhaps there's an agreement on how that texture is used. Since you don't know because you aren't a party to what that agreement is, modifying that material and redistributing it could create that loss in the reference owner's eyes. And that's the point; you aren't the owner, so you don't actually know the value of that particular reference.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,822
    edited December 2012

    And as we were saying in the posts about Merchant Resources, there are a good many merchant resources that will not allow them to be used for creating freebies, This is another point to remember, quite apart from the points about the original texture being the vendors intellectual property, and therefore not for redistribution unless specifically permitted by the vendor, which no products sold by DAZ 3D, whether DOs or PA brokered products, will allow.

    You don't know which merchant resource the vendor used, or even if he did use one, so you don't know the terms of that merchant resource.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 2012

    chohole said:

    I would never even think of altering someone else's texture either. After all, quite apart from the fact that it is his/her interllectual property, I think that if the vendor had wanted the texture done that way, then he or she would have probably done it that way themselves.

    Well that's a different aspect of it, of course, and I fully respect that.

    But still, if I create an addon texture that alters the original texture if applied, which I suppose is legal, isn't that tecnically the same.as altering the original creators texture? And if I don't want my product used in any context other than privately with other textures than the ones I include myself, can I then demand that in the copyright terms? Can I also demand that no one must create addon textures for my product?

    Post edited by Taozen on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,822
    edited December 2012

    Taozen said:
    chohole said:

    I would never even think of altering someone else's texture either. After all, quite apart from the fact that it is his/her interllectual property, I think that if the vendor had wanted the texture done that way, then he or she would have probably done it that way themselves.

    Well that's a different aspect of it, of course, and I fully respect that.

    But still, if I create an addon texture that alters the original texture if applied, which I suppose is legal, isn't that tecnically the same.as altering the original creators texture? And if I don't want my product used in any context other than privately with other textures than the ones I include myself, can I then demand that in the copyright terms? Can I also demand that no one must create addon textures for my product?



    Creating a different texture for a product is a completely different thing from editing an existing texture. If you create your own texture, all your own work, then that is not the same thing as altering the texture that is shipped with the product. You can distribute your own textures, you cannot redistribute other peoples textures.

    I have 5gb of additional textures on my site, but none that are copies or edited copies of the vendors textures.

    What you do for your own use is different, but you specifically asked about redistributing an existing texture in an edited form.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 2012

    But there could be possibly a loss, however tangible, on the reference material used. Perhaps there's an agreement on how that texture is used. Since you don't know because you aren't a party to what that agreement is, modifying that material and redistributing it could create that loss in the reference owner's eyes. And that's the point; you aren't the owner, so you don't actually know the value of that particular reference.

    OK, that's a valid point of course.

    Post edited by Taozen on
  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 386
    edited December 2012

    Taozen:

    I see where you are coming from, and I agree with you.

    It is sad that one can't do what the author should have done in the first place. He/She should have included a non-ripped version of the jeans texture, and you just want to give people (who own it) that option by doing the work for them (because, not everyone is inclined, or even have the simple skills to accomplish the mind-numbingly simple procedure).

    Unfortunately, as everyone have profusely stated, your only recourse are the work-arounds presented, or you could write a small tutorial teaching those to apply the texture to the holes.

    What I find hilarious is I can imagine that I have the exact 'base' jeans texture in my texture catalog just like the nearly $30.00 product I downloaded yesterday that used three of the same leather texture bases (non-altered even) that I have in my catalog, and I know exactly where they got them from (free for both commercial and non-commercial 3D ventures).

    Now, if the base jeans textures are heavily modified (cloud noise, dodge, burn, custom painting, etc.) like custom work that is done by chohole, then even if you have the base texture (with freebie distribution rights) to recreate the needed patch for the holes, you will have to create it as close to the author's as possible.

    Definitely the alpha layer patch would be the way to go, unless you feel like teaching those who can't do for themselves which would save you from any hassles of trying to be a nice guy, and helping anyone out in the first place.

    Just my buck-fifty...

    Post edited by DaremoK3 on
  • TheNathanParableTheNathanParable Posts: 679
    edited December 2012

    Question; couldn't you just RTEncode it?

    That way, it can only be used by people who own the original product, and they essentially have to prove they own it in order to even get access to it. That way, no content is being redistributed in such a way that any Tom, Dick, and Harry could use it.

    I'm interested in this topic as i'm currently working on a set of matching Adzan HiroGens textures for characters who previously have no genital textures (such as 3DU's Jason), and in order to make sure the skin match i've had to use samples from the torso texture.

    Post edited by TheNathanParable on
  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 386
    edited December 1969

    More posts came in while I was writing, and after reading what transpired further I think I will change my mind...

    I think your best bet would be to just create a non-ripped jeans version completely from scratch that is all your own. Hell, you could even do a ripped counterpart version (with your references, or course), completing a texture set, and people might even like your version better than the original authors.

  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    The fireworks are gonna fly now!

  • DzFireDzFire Posts: 777
    edited December 1969

    The best way around this is to contact the vendor and ask. I've been asked in the past about some of my textures and on a few occasions, I have allowed the altered texture to go out.

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 2012

    chohole said:
    Taozen said:
    chohole said:

    I would never even think of altering someone else's texture either. After all, quite apart from the fact that it is his/her interllectual property, I think that if the vendor had wanted the texture done that way, then he or she would have probably done it that way themselves.

    Well that's a different aspect of it, of course, and I fully respect that.

    But still, if I create an addon texture that alters the original texture if applied, which I suppose is legal, isn't that tecnically the same.as altering the original creators texture? And if I don't want my product used in any context other than privately with other textures than the ones I include myself, can I then demand that in the copyright terms? Can I also demand that no one must create addon textures for my product?



    Creating a different texture for a product is a completely different thing from editing an existing texture. If you create your own texture, all your own work, then that is not the same thing as altering the texture that is shipped with the product. You can distribute your own textures, you cannot redistribute other peoples textures.

    What about altering a texture for a product and using it in my own renders then? Are there any rules here for private / public / commecial use of such renders?

    Post edited by Taozen on
  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    DzFire™ said:
    The best way around this is to contact the vendor and ask. I've been asked in the past about some of my textures and on a few occasions, I have allowed the altered texture to go out.

    That is one of the most reasonable answers I have ever heard on this type of topic.

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