Wanted: Plugin developer for Kickstarter project to implement soft-body dynamics in DS

zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768

I know I'm not a good enough programmer to tackle this. But I'm pretty good at writing specs and testing, and organizing a testing community, and I can also write documentation. So here's my proposal:

The proposed plugin would implement an open-source soft-body dynamics engine, e.g. Bullet, in DS. The user interface would allow the user to specify a single object in the scene to drape, and one or more collision objects. The drape object would be extracted from the scene, along with copies of the collision objects, the drape would be simulated, and then the drape object in the scene would be replaced with the new draped object. Any realtime view of the drape could occur in a separate window, if this would ease the implementation.

This would allow conforming clothing to be loaded, fit to a figure, including morphs, scaling, etc., and then draped from that position. Ideally there would also be a command to revert to the conforming version if the user wishes to adjust the pose and re-drape. Because the clothing would be conformed and posed before the drape, this would maintain the ease of use advantages of the OptiTex solution, but because the clothes would also be morphed to fit the figure, including scaling, limitations of the existing OptiTex solution would be avoided. This method would allow any object in the scene to be draped, opening up the creation of dynamic items to many creators.

I understand that the effort required would not be minor. This is why I am proposing a Kickstarter campaign. Using Kickstarter, funds would be raised in advance to cover the initial development work, reducing the risk to the developer. Participants in the Kickstarter would receive discounts or waivers on the cost of the final product, depending on the level of funding per contributor. One of the most essential elements of a successful Kickstarter campaign is an existing community with an interest in the project who can be made aware of the funding drive-- we have that here.

Kickstarter requires that software projects have an identified developer in order to be listed. Again, I know this project is beyond my present coding capabilities. Is there anyone else here with experience writing plugins for DS who might be interested in working on such a project?

Note that with the new plugin interface for Poser, this could be a multi-platform solution, as it would offer capabilities not available in the existing Cloth Room.

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Comments

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,522
    edited December 1969

    I don't have the skills to do the plug-in but would be happy to contribute to the kickstart fund...

  • TugpsxTugpsx Posts: 139
    edited December 1969

    You are aware of Marvelous Designer II

    http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/

    There is a Daz plugin in the works. While it doesnt stop your project. Its just a heads up info

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    Tugpsx said:
    You are aware of Marvelous Designer II

    http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/

    There is a Daz plugin in the works. While it doesnt stop your project. Its just a heads up info

    We were told that rather a long time ago... granted you may be under NDA, but can you give any stronger hints that this really is being worked on? Because that would certainly be a good solution.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    Ever hear of the concept called 'vaporware'?

    Deep at its heart, it is one developer saying a certain product is in development...and then said developer spends more time dissuading others from developing a similar concept than actually spent developing the product...

    MD IS NOT DYNAMIC. (moving, changing, flowing, etc) clothing IN DS...and until (or even IF) there's a plugin, it won't ever be. It's been well over a year since the plugin 'fever' started...and every time...'waiting for the x.x (insert version number) SDK'. DAZ looks to be on a two year development track for DS 5...the 4.5 SDK has been out for months...and basic Qt hasn't changed much in the 4.8 series...so the next wait is for the DS 5 SDK?

    Z, sorry for ranting in your thread. You have my support. Heck, if I have to crack out the books and brush up on whatever flavor of 'C' is current and learn Qt on top of it, I will, if that will help.

  • TugpsxTugpsx Posts: 139
    edited December 2012

    DS was once considered an hobbyist program, therefore there was very little expectation that one would spend real money on its plugins.
    That has changed over the years and DS is now becoming main stream.

    It has been my desire to see Daz flourish so much so that a buddy and i once set a lot of the computers in Bestbuy and Tigerdirect to Daz website.

    Anyway back on topic. I assume this development is geared to clothing and not physics as in bricks falling and such.
    Casual has created some of the more bleeding edge scripts and addons for DS and his site may serve as a great source of information in this project.

    I know i should read your proposal again but we should bullet point.

    1, What is the project about
    2. What do you intend for the project
    3. Who is the benificary of the project
    4. Will the project be opensource

    These are just a few.

    With this much interest we can make a interface for the product.

    Post edited by Tugpsx on
  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Tugpsx said:
    You are aware of Marvelous Designer II

    http://www.marvelousdesigner.com/

    There is a Daz plugin in the works. While it doesnt stop your project. Its just a heads up info

    MD said there will be no plugin. it's not in their latest developers list.

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    implement soft-body dynamics in DS

    VOTE VOTE VOTE

    think of all the possibilities, just paint with a brush over a section you would have soft-body dynamics on.

    that would be some new awesome DS surprise.

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Tugpsx said:
    I assume this development is geared to clothing and not physics as in bricks falling and such

    Why only clothing? Soft-body dynamics could be used for so many more things.

    look about this nice animation of a bird with softbody simulation.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWuOR-5GZAw

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    implement soft-body dynamics in DS

    VOTE VOTE VOTE

    think of all the possibilities, just paint with a brush over a section you would have soft-body dynamics on.

    that would be some new awesome DS surprise.

    I don't think voting in a forum or poll site is going to get us there. A lot of programming work will be required, which means someone needs to invest a lot of time without knowing if the plugin will sell well enough to get their investment back. That's why I suggested Kickstarter. If there is an experienced programmer willing to tackle the job, we raise the money up front to cover their time.

    My only concern about open source is whether the original programmer will also be willing to be the primary maintainer. But an open source project could be a good way for contributors to feel like their investment is covered even if the original programmer later bows out. I'd be willing to participate either way.

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:
    implement soft-body dynamics in DS

    VOTE VOTE VOTE

    think of all the possibilities, just paint with a brush over a section you would have soft-body dynamics on.

    that would be some new awesome DS surprise.

    I don't think voting in a forum or poll site is going to get us there. A lot of programming work will be required, which means someone needs to invest a lot of time without knowing if the plugin will sell well enough to get their investment back. That's why I suggested Kickstarter. If there is an experienced programmer willing to tackle the job, we raise the money up front to cover their time.

    My only concern about open source is whether the original programmer will also be willing to be the primary maintainer. But an open source project could be a good way for contributors to feel like their investment is covered even if the original programmer later bows out. I'd be willing to participate either way.

    why not ask straight to the daz developers team?
    it's better to have physics engine build inside the main program and no external plugin.

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969


    why not ask straight to the daz developers team?
    it's better to have physics engine build inside the main program and no external plugin.

    I agree, that would be better. But the DAZ team seems to have a lot on their roadmap already. It doesn't seem like this is a priority. I would love for someone from DAZ to correct me about this, but I think if users want this functionality, we will need to find an external developer.

    Regarding the MD plugin, in thinking about it, that would only work with MD content. It would be nice to have a more general solution, that would work with any content, including existing conforming clothing.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    Basically, I think what we need it to 'revive'/start from scratch a Bullet plugin or some way of integrating the Bullet engine into DS. The plugin route is probably the easiest from a third-party standpoint.

    DS is already making extensive use of Qt. And yes, there's plenty of Qt/Bullet stuff around. So, the basics are there...it's the putting them together, that's the problem.

    OK...why Bullet?

    1. It's a well established, mature, stable project...and it's dirt cheap (yeah...OpenSource).

    2. It's widely used....it's already in Lightwave, C4D, Houdini and Blender (integrated) and has plugins in Maya and Softimage...oh, and Carrara, too. It's been used in qute a few commercial games and it's been used in movies...

    3. It does 'rigid', 'soft body' and collisions. The soft body includes cloth and other simulations.


    What that means is all the 'heavy lifting' is done...now we just need someone well versed in Qt and Bullet to put it together.

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 2012

    there was a demo project about Bullet engine in to DS3. (probably daz developers team)

    I wonder if those guys are still working on a DS4 or 5 version?

    with brushes available in studio (like paint weightmaps)
    i would like to paint softbodies on meshes.

    Post edited by creativemodelsbe on
  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    I agree about Bullet. Perhaps the people who were working on it earlier don't have time to take it up again now, but that shouldn't stop another developer from working on it.

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Tugpsx said:
    DS was once considered an hobbyist program, therefore there was very little expectation that one would spend real money on its plugins.
    That has changed over the years and DS is now becoming main stream.

    you made ​​me laugh very hard :lol: L*O*L

    Main stream >> still a long path to go.
    people still laughing with poser kind of programs in the 3d world.
    daz must further demonstrate big innovation, to be taken seriously.
    it is certainly not impossible. ;-)

  • TugpsxTugpsx Posts: 139
    edited December 1969

    True that the DS itself may not be used as much as they would like but when you find the daz characters being used in 3DSMax C4D Maya, Vue, Modo and many more.

    They may laugh about the program but they are still using it or its characters. :)

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Tugpsx said:
    True that the DS itself may not be used as much as they would like but when you find the daz characters being used in 3DSMax C4D Maya, Vue, Modo and many more.

    They may laugh about the program but they are still using it or its characters. :)

    great for stills, yes.
    not if people would do animations, you need to re-rig the figures (= waste time)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    Ever hear of the concept called 'vaporware'?
    I love vaporware! It makes for great drama!

    DS was once considered an hobbyist program, therefore there was very little expectation that one would spend real money on its plugins.
    That has changed over the years and DS is now becoming main stream.


    Glad I'm not the only one who believes this.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,235
    edited December 1969

    Tugpsx said:
    True that the DS itself may not be used as much as they would like but when you find the daz characters being used in 3DSMax C4D Maya, Vue, Modo and many more.

    They may laugh about the program but they are still using it or its characters. :)

    great for stills, yes.
    not if people would do animations, you need to re-rig the figures (= waste time)

    It doesn't take any more time to rig a DAZ figure from scratch in another app than it does to rig any other figure from scratch...so that argument just doesn't hold any weight, for me. The waste of time comes from expecting the rigging to transfer and then messing around trying to get it to work...

    Simple solution...assume it won't and start from scratch in your app of choice. And it's not just DAZ figures that have this problem...it's every thing.

    I've got Sintel and she works great in Blender...but export her and guess what. Pretty much need to tweak her rig, no matter where I send her. It would just be easier to re-rig her in the other app.

    There isn't a universal rigging standard, like there are several mesh formats. Even FBX has differences between it's versions that makes it very hard to get any kind of uniformity out of it...

  • mattiascibienmattiascibien Posts: 105
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:
    I know I'm not a good enough programmer to tackle this. But I'm pretty good at writing specs and testing, and organizing a testing community, and I can also write documentation. So here's my proposal:

    The proposed plugin would implement an open-source soft-body dynamics engine, e.g. Bullet, in DS. The user interface would allow the user to specify a single object in the scene to drape, and one or more collision objects. The drape object would be extracted from the scene, along with copies of the collision objects, the drape would be simulated, and then the drape object in the scene would be replaced with the new draped object. Any realtime view of the drape could occur in a separate window, if this would ease the implementation.

    This would allow conforming clothing to be loaded, fit to a figure, including morphs, scaling, etc., and then draped from that position. Ideally there would also be a command to revert to the conforming version if the user wishes to adjust the pose and re-drape. Because the clothing would be conformed and posed before the drape, this would maintain the ease of use advantages of the OptiTex solution, but because the clothes would also be morphed to fit the figure, including scaling, limitations of the existing OptiTex solution would be avoided. This method would allow any object in the scene to be draped, opening up the creation of dynamic items to many creators.

    I understand that the effort required would not be minor. This is why I am proposing a Kickstarter campaign. Using Kickstarter, funds would be raised in advance to cover the initial development work, reducing the risk to the developer. Participants in the Kickstarter would receive discounts or waivers on the cost of the final product, depending on the level of funding per contributor. One of the most essential elements of a successful Kickstarter campaign is an existing community with an interest in the project who can be made aware of the funding drive-- we have that here.

    Kickstarter requires that software projects have an identified developer in order to be listed. Again, I know this project is beyond my present coding capabilities. Is there anyone else here with experience writing plugins for DS who might be interested in working on such a project?

    Note that with the new plugin interface for Poser, this could be a multi-platform solution, as it would offer capabilities not available in the existing Cloth Room.

    I am actually using Bullet for my Thesis with DAZ3D (actually something different from yours). if you need help I'll be here,,,

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    So are you offering to be the developer? We'll need a plan if we go to Kickstarter.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,586
    edited January 2013

    Please Lord, let this happen. Amen:)

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • mattiascibienmattiascibien Posts: 105
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:
    So are you offering to be the developer? We'll need a plan if we go to Kickstarter.

    I would like to but ATM I am not available since I am working on my thesis. So I am not free until the end of march. Also I am attending new courses at university. I will work mostly in my free time so.

  • TugpsxTugpsx Posts: 139
    edited December 1969

    Im sure you guys are aware by now that Marvelous Designer was used in "the Hobbit"

    http://www.fxguide.com/featured/the-hobbit-weta/

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    any news about painting collision jiggle boobs and whiggle ass with gravity?

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    any news about painting collision jiggle boobs and whiggle ass with gravity?

    It's not even on my radar. Sorry, I'm more interested in clothes that drape properly. But since we don't have a developer, we don't have a project at this point. Maybe you'll have better luck finding a developer for the functionality you want.

    gravity0, no one else seems to be raising their hand to be a developer, so if you have time after March, you could be our best chance.

  • spielereinzspielereinz Posts: 11
    edited December 1969

    If no one else wants to carry the fire, I guess I'm willing to chime in as a developer - if there is at least one other willing to do so.
    This project is IMHO to big for a single developer ;)

  • zigraphixzigraphix Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    That would be super. What can the rest of us do to help? Do we need to start a kickstarter project to raise money for you? (We'll need a bio/CV, if so.) Do you want a feature specification? Technical specification?

    I'm sure you're right that ultimately more than one developer would be good, but if we could get a proof-of-concept beta, that would be a big improvement from where we are now.

  • spielereinzspielereinz Posts: 11
    edited December 1969

    As I work full time, I cannot commit to more than 20-30 hours (max) developing time a month on this.
    So if this project is going to fly, we need at least one more developer. I'm hoping that gravity0 can give a hand - at least he has some working experience with the DAZ/Bullet combo :)

    A full feature specification would allow me to give some initial estimates on how long (man hours) it will take to implement.

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    zigraphix said:
    any news about painting collision jiggle boobs and whiggle ass with gravity?

    It's not even on my radar. Sorry, I'm more interested in clothes that drape properly. But since we don't have a developer, we don't have a project at this point. Maybe you'll have better luck finding a developer for the functionality you want.

    gravity0, no one else seems to be raising their hand to be a developer, so if you have time after March, you could be our best chance.

    for drape clothes, i like to see marvelousdesigner input.
    not another quick softbody daz fix.

    Rigid Body Simulation with physics.

    that is what we need in dazstudio.

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