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Will DS4 and earlier users ever get a workaround for duf files?!
Posted: 08 December 2012 06:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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You feel forced to upgrade but isn’t what your suggesting forcing content creators to do work multiple times without high odds of additional compensation for near double hours of work?

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:27 PM

I really wish there was a workaround like this for macs! Is there any reason you can’t do the same on MAC OSX? Unfortunately I’m not running Windows, but if I had the option to keep my current install untouched and just give DS4.5 a spin ... I certainly would.


I dont have a Mac to test with to be sure if it will work but I do know that Mac and windows treat things differently so what works with one does not always work with the other (speaking of the file managers)

Because I dont know what files will or will not be deleted, left behind or replaced with a newer version when you upgrade, I cannot suggest or advise you attempt an upgrade with my previous suggestion in mind.


Brain storm… If I remember my Mac tech support from an old job, you can create a new account with admin privliges and install DS 4.5 to there and play around with the default content.  Maybe copy over a few of your favorite items to just to compare.  And the two different versions will not affect or overwrite one another.  If I recall correctly.  Please look that up online to verify you wont screw yourself over before following my idea.  Please!

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Pendraia - 08 December 2012 01:14 PM

IIRC, doesn’t it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

Why do people lately react to any change they don’t like by saying someone is trying to force them to do something…I just don’t get it or see it that way. : (

Staying with a particular version of DS is a choice made by the user. I’ve done it myself several times to make sure a new version isn’t buggy.

Wasn’t the new format also to help create the plug in for Poser?

I haven’t updated all my files to dson…one day I might get around to it and everything seems to work okay for me.

It’s not good to generalize Pendraia smile because I can’t speak for “people” I can only speak for myself and I actually don’t dislike the change. If I had the option I would have tried DS4.5 right alongside my current build ages ago. What I dislike is the fact that I now can’t buy/use certain DazO’s unless I upgrade. And you’re correct, upgrading is absolutely the choice of the user, or @ least it should be. If this upgrade was necessary for DS to function that would be one thing, but as improved as DS4.5 might be in certain respects, DS4 still works just fine for me.

Isn’t it my right to forgo the hassle and continue using the program that is comfortable for me without Daz forcing my hand by not including file formats that work for Legacy users with their products?

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:36 PM

My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn’t be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It’s never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don’t really understand why it is the case now??

I’m sorry, but that’s a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade.  The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ.  Look at Microsoft with Office—files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don’t open in older versions.  If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

And your DS3 argument doesn’t work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher.  DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Khory - 08 December 2012 06:40 PM

You feel forced to upgrade but isn’t what your suggesting forcing content creators to do work multiple times without high odds of additional compensation for near double hours of work?

What I’m suggesting is that content creators continue to support many of the people who have supported them by purchasing their products and putting money into their pockets for a long time - like myself. I don’t recall ever asking for Legacy content to be given away for free? I’m pretty sure my purchase of a product counts as compensation.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Mattymanx - 08 December 2012 06:46 PM
LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:27 PM

I really wish there was a workaround like this for macs! Is there any reason you can’t do the same on MAC OSX? Unfortunately I’m not running Windows, but if I had the option to keep my current install untouched and just give DS4.5 a spin ... I certainly would.


I dont have a Mac to test with to be sure if it will work but I do know that Mac and windows treat things differently so what works with one does not always work with the other (speaking of the file managers)

Because I dont know what files will or will not be deleted, left behind or replaced with a newer version when you upgrade, I cannot suggest or advise you attempt an upgrade with my previous suggestion in mind.


Brain storm… If I remember my Mac tech support from an old job, you can create a new account with admin privliges and install DS 4.5 to there and play around with the default content.  Maybe copy over a few of your favorite items to just to compare.  And the two different versions will not affect or overwrite one another.  If I recall correctly.  Please look that up online to verify you wont screw yourself over before following my idea.  Please!

That would be awesome ... if it works of course lol. I will definitely contact mac support and look into this, it’d be worthwhile to at least try. Thanks for the suggestion Matty! grin

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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I think it’s worth keeping in mind that this dilemma is not a whim or conspiracy.  The reason that running both 4.0 and 4.5 on the same machine is very difficult to make work is not because DAZ 3D felt like making it difficult, but because it would have been a tremendous amount of work to make it something that could be done easily, reliably, and without introducing major instability.  The reason that products built using 4.5 sometimes don’t have legacy versions is that it would be a major increase in the amount of work required to do so.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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I mentioned in another thread that a DAZ owned product may have been made by an PA at the request of DAZ3D and to certain specifications which support only the latest version of the software or a certain figure.  Instead of the PA making it to their own specifications regardless of what they felt was better.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 07:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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FSMCDesigns - 08 December 2012 06:39 PM
LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:20 PM

Just quoting my first post to clarify that I have no hopes of DUF becoming usable in DS4, at least not officially ... my biggest concern is that Daz Original (I’m not really speaking on PA products, because those are obviously at the discretion of the artists) products are coming out without any options for those of us who don’t care to upgrade to DS4.5. I bear no personal grudge against 4.5, it sounds awesome in many ways! Just not awesome or ground breaking enough for me to re-install my entire library and deal with compatibility issues and bugs.

It would be so different if Daz had released this as DS5 and allowed us to run both DS4 and the new build side by side if we chose, but despite the fact that both builds are radically different, they’re basically saying: you MUST have one or the other ... and if you don’t have the one WE want you to have, then you won’t be able to use many of the products currently releasing into the store. And THAT is what I find both unfair and extremely irritating, especially as a PC member. If I’m paying for the discount, I shouldn’t suddenly be limited in what I can buy based on what works in the version of DS I’m running!

I totally disagree with your way of thinking. it is “your” choice to not be able to use new products, not DAZs. “You” choose not to install the most current version of DS, you only have yourself to blame. There is nothing keeping you from using the latest products other than your choice in which version of the software to run.

Why would you have to reinstall your whole library? just point the new version to your files.

So basically if in fact the new format is so that the poser users can use genesis content with DSON, you would have them do without simply because you can’t be bothered to move up to the latest build of DS?

 

Woah woah woah. Did I ever ask anyone to do without?! Lol, I think you’ve misunderstood quite a bit. I’m glad that poser users are back in the mix and I think everyone should have the freedom to move up to DS4.5 ... if they want to. I choose to stick with DS4 because it’s more comfortable and I don’t want to have to reinstall all my genesis content (which you MUST do, FYI) or clean up the duplicate errors, among other things. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. If this was a matter of painlessly upgrading and simply pointing to my runtime - no reinstalling genesis, no risk of big incompatibilities ... we might not even be having this conversation.

I’m not on a soapbox preaching about support for DS2 here, we’re talking about two builds that aren’t even a FULL version number apart! I think it’s silly that I even have to LOBBY that continued support be included as a default, for a release which is barely a year old.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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cwichura - 08 December 2012 06:49 PM
LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:36 PM

My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn’t be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It’s never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don’t really understand why it is the case now??

I’m sorry, but that’s a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade.  The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ.  Look at Microsoft with Office—files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don’t open in older versions.  If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

And your DS3 argument doesn’t work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher.  DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

Well I think it’s a load of malarkey that a build which came out a year ago is now considered to be in the doldrums of history LOL. And my sense of entitlement is just fine with me, because it wasn’t free, I purchased it many times over by patronizing Daz’s store along with keeping a PC membership. And that is all I’m trying to CONTINUE doing really, buying things ... Apparently though, my money should be relegated into the doldrums of history as well. tongue wink

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Posted: 08 December 2012 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:06 PM
mjc1016 - 08 December 2012 12:18 PM
LEI1 - 08 December 2012 11:04 AM

I’ve seen more and more DS4.5 only . I’m a firm believer in ‘if it’s not broken don’t fix it’ ... Even so, while I still don’t understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That’s fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?

But that’s where you are wrong.  4.5, not only adds new functionality…but if fixes quite a few problems in 4.0, not the least of which are some rather major 3Delight problems.  Plus besides fixing the 3Delight problems (some of which were long standing ones, that finally were fixed in the last few updates to 3Delight), it has all the speed improvements those updates include.  The latest beta version (which I haven’t run) includes the 10.0.73 (I think…it’s a 10.7 series)  3Delight, which includes even more speed enhancements (the 10.0.6x in 4.5.1.6 has significant speed improvements over the 10.5x in 4.0). Somewhere between a dozen and two dozen fixes, alone, from 10.5 to 10.6x, for 3Delight.

Then there’s the various internal fixes.

A few of the 4.0 to 4.5 fixes:
Fixed UV set load on very old scenes
Fixed a crash issue when using transfer utility to transfer weights to a figure that was already active in the weightmap brush tool
Fixed an issue where the Inherit Parent Scale option would remain set on bones that were formerly the root but are no longer when converting legacy content during Auto Fit

Here’s the ChangeLog…

http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_5_1_6

Plus, it had been about a year from when 4.0 was released to when 4.5 came out…(10/11 months or so…).

To me the word broken suggest that something is unusable ... the 3Delight engine and DS4 as a whole is definitely not unusable. If you want to argue that improvements have been made that’s another story which I’m in no position to disagree with. But seeing as I use it constantly I can confirm that nothing about DS4 is ‘broken’.

Did you even bother to follow the link to the change log?

I don’t think so…there were very real ‘broken’ parts of DS and 3Delight…one of the major ones was the Area light issue.  It affected ALL area lights, not just Uber ones.  The raytracing problem (well there were 2 of them, actually).  One dealt with bounces being stuck at 2.  In other words…NO MIRRORS.  The second was with how shadows were calculated, especially with opacity (glass was one of the most noticeable things affected by this one).  And that issue not only, unnecessarily extended render times, but in some cases caused excessive memory use, to the point of crashing 3Delight. (both of those affected all 3Delight users of versions between 10.0.50 and 10.0.63)

So that’s 3 actual fixes…NOT improvements…and there’s more, if you delve into the change logs.  That’s in addition the the 3 fixes I listed before…and 6 is actually a very short list.  That doesn’t count ANY ‘improvements’/new functions.

LEI1 - 08 December 2012 07:20 PM
cwichura - 08 December 2012 06:49 PM
LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:36 PM

My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn’t be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It’s never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don’t really understand why it is the case now??

I’m sorry, but that’s a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade.  The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ.  Look at Microsoft with Office—files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don’t open in older versions.  If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

And your DS3 argument doesn’t work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher.  DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

Well I think it’s a load of malarkey that a build which came out a year ago is now considered to be in the doldrums of history LOL. And my sense of entitlement is just fine with me, because it wasn’t free, I purchased it many times over by patronizing Daz’s store along with keeping a PC membership. And that is all I’m trying to CONTINUE doing really, buying things ... Apparently though, my money should be relegated into the doldrums of history as well. tongue wink

If you are actually sticking to a 2 yr dev cycle, it is…

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Posted: 09 December 2012 01:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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LEI1 - 08 December 2012 07:20 PM
cwichura - 08 December 2012 06:49 PM
LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:36 PM

My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn’t be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It’s never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don’t really understand why it is the case now??

I’m sorry, but that’s a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade.  The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ.  Look at Microsoft with Office—files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don’t open in older versions.  If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

And your DS3 argument doesn’t work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher.  DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

Well I think it’s a load of malarkey that a build which came out a year ago is now considered to be in the doldrums of history LOL. And my sense of entitlement is just fine with me, because it wasn’t free, I purchased it many times over by patronizing Daz’s store along with keeping a PC membership. And that is all I’m trying to CONTINUE doing really, buying things ... Apparently though, my money should be relegated into the doldrums of history as well. tongue wink

I provided legacy installers for my last release but it is highly unlikely that I will be able to do so in the future. Why not? The short answer is time, money, equipment,  resources AND lack of features in those older versions compared to the newest one. 

Right now, I am running DS3 & DS 4.0 on my computer and DS 4.5 on my SO’s system in order to upgrade my products.  Soon I will upgrade MY DS to 4.5 and Poser to 2012 and that will be the end of my legacy files.  Sometimes, it is not about supporting or not supporting past versions or being forced by ANYONE to do anything.  The reality is that these three versions simply don’t play well together anymore.  It happens to most software at various junctures, even when the company really tries to make everything backwards compatible (certainly happened to Adobe several times with Photoshop).  But you’d probably be hard pressed to find many Photoshop users who want to go back to PS 6 or 7 now.  The feature changes really did give the majority of users tools they wanted, fixed problems, and more. 

As a vendor I kicked and screamed about upgrading until I realized something important about DS4.5.  I can make better products with it!  Please don’t upgrade because you don’t have any other choice.  Upgrade so I can give you the best deal for your money.

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Posted: 09 December 2012 02:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I’ve discussed this with some people before, and honestly it seems where some people get confused is with the numbering system this time around. 4.0 and 4.5 are very different animals, and 4.5 is a major revision above 4.0 in function and format. With the addition to the .duf format, and the fixes made, additional options, speed increases, etc. it is confusing in some regards why it wasn’t released as a new generation (DS 5). If you consider DS 4.5 as DS 5 for the time being, instead, things tend to make a lot more sense: It’s not common someone would expect products for a new generation to be made compatible for an older generation, at least not for long. Just the generation number tells you that processes have changed. So if someone were sitting here growling because Daz 4.0 products weren’t working right in DS 3, or even DS 2, the response would be an over whelming “That product is longer supported. You need to upgrade or miss out on new releases, sorry.” It’d just be foolish to expect a company to release products for a full generation back, when they have a new program to promote.
Now let’s look at 4.0 and 4.5 . Unlike DS 3 to DS 4, 4.5 just sounds like a simple upgrade from 4.0. It’s a bit more more confusing to try and explain to someone that products from 4 and a half aren’t compatible with 4, and that 4 doesn’t even recognize the file format that 4 and a half creates (.duf). So if you look at 4.5 as a fully different generation instead of a variation of the basic 4.0, the lack of backwards support makes a lot more sense, IMHO.

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