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Will DS4 and earlier users ever get a workaround for duf files?!
Posted: 08 December 2012 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]
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I’ve seen more and more DS4.5 only products coming out in the store and frankly it’s irritating. I’m a firm believer in ‘if it’s not broken don’t fix it’ ... Even so, while I still don’t understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That’s fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?


I personally have no interest in DS4.5 and my main concern is that Daz isn’t providing legacy installers with all their new content, as they should. Especially with the Daz Original content which I pay a membership fee to get a discount on, and now can’t even use. I’ve passed up on the majority of the new items in the store for this reason, and I’m wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same frustrations or has found a way that legacy users can work with products that are in duf format? I was interested in the Horse2 and I know someone said there’s a remap floating around out there, but I’m wondering how you can even remap something that - like genesis/most genesis content - probably doesn’t have a standard obj (to import into DS) associated with it?


I’m not holding my breath for a solution since I’m pretty sure duf wasn’t created to be backwards compatible, but it would be really nice to hear some official word from Daz on why we’re being cornered into this upgrade and whether us legacy users will eventually have to shop elsewhere for new content!

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Posted: 08 December 2012 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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The DUF files (DSON Format) were created to allow compatablity with other software is the really short answer since I dont know the technical bit behind it all.

At the same time, DS45, if you have not tried it, is much faster then DS4 when it comes to viewport navigation and is also a bit faster in rendering.

In regards to PA owned items, it is up to the PA as to whether or not they will support older versions of the software.  Regardless of whether its DAZ Studio or Poser.

If you want to try DS45 but not loose DS4 or even compare the two (and your on a Windows machine) you can do the following

1. Using Winrar or anther compression program of choice, compress your DS4 program folder into a single archive.

2. Move that file somewhere safe where you will not delete it by accident.

3. Uninstall DS4

4. Install DS 4.5

5. Install DS45 content to a newer location then your current content to avoid overwriting your excisting DS4 only content

6. Decompress the DS4 folder to a new location of your choice

7. Create a short cut to the new DS4 location.

I do not know if you can run both at the same time but you can now at least launch one at a time and compare loading times plus overall handeling

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Posted: 08 December 2012 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Besides moving to DUF for cross-app compatibility, 4.5 includes a number of features that very quickly became a standard part of how I build scenes.  Things like group nodes and geometry shells.  And it’s MUCH more responsive.  In 4, if I had a couple figures with subdivision level set to 2 in a scene, the viewport was unusable due to how slowly it updated.  In 4.5, I don’t even notice a slowdown at all.

The original 4.5 was pretty buggy, in particular to saving to the new DUF format.  But DAZ has been very responsive to fixing these types of bugs, and all the stuff I reported was fixed and 4.5.1.6 has been very stable for me; as stable as the last 4.0 was, if not moreso.

Yes, it’s a pain to go through and re-download stuff in your library to fix all the duplicate ID errors.  But that’s a one-time thing.  I grumbled about it, too.  But now it’s done, I could never go back to 4.x.

The only thing in 4.5 I wish they’d revert is the new moronic handling of MLIE definitions.

As to the original question: your workaround is called ‘install 4.5’.  There will never be a DUF importer for 4.x.  It’d be silly for DAZ to move backwards like that.  I recall seeing comments from one PA saying DUF also supports advancements in weight maps, which means it’s more than just an import.  At least DAZ has been supporting 4.x users by including ‘Legacy’ installer options for a bunch of new products.  But that’s partly a function of what the PA provides DAZ when they submit the product.  Eventually that will go away, too.  In the end, you’re just gonna have to bite the bullet and upgrade.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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LEI1 - 08 December 2012 11:04 AM

I’ve seen more and more DS4.5 only . I’m a firm believer in ‘if it’s not broken don’t fix it’ ... Even so, while I still don’t understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That’s fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?

But that’s where you are wrong.  4.5, not only adds new functionality…but if fixes quite a few problems in 4.0, not the least of which are some rather major 3Delight problems.  Plus besides fixing the 3Delight problems (some of which were long standing ones, that finally were fixed in the last few updates to 3Delight), it has all the speed improvements those updates include.  The latest beta version (which I haven’t run) includes the 10.0.73 (I think…it’s a 10.7 series)  3Delight, which includes even more speed enhancements (the 10.0.6x in 4.5.1.6 has significant speed improvements over the 10.5x in 4.0). Somewhere between a dozen and two dozen fixes, alone, from 10.5 to 10.6x, for 3Delight.

Then there’s the various internal fixes.

A few of the 4.0 to 4.5 fixes:
Fixed UV set load on very old scenes
Fixed a crash issue when using transfer utility to transfer weights to a figure that was already active in the weightmap brush tool
Fixed an issue where the Inherit Parent Scale option would remain set on bones that were formerly the root but are no longer when converting legacy content during Auto Fit

Here’s the ChangeLog…

http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_5_1_6

Plus, it had been about a year from when 4.0 was released to when 4.5 came out…(10/11 months or so…).

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Posted: 08 December 2012 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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IIRC, doesn’t it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

Why do people lately react to any change they don’t like by saying someone is trying to force them to do something…I just don’t get it or see it that way. : (

Staying with a particular version of DS is a choice made by the user. I’ve done it myself several times to make sure a new version isn’t buggy.

Wasn’t the new format also to help create the plug in for Poser?

I haven’t updated all my files to dson…one day I might get around to it and everything seems to work okay for me.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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I moved from DS4.0 to DS4.5 so fast my Modem caught fire. It is a 100% improvement in my eyes. Speed, usability, feature enhancements all make for a faster and better user experience. I have not had one problem. The only users I do know of that do have issues are ones who just are not able to have updated PC’s. If that is your issue I also would stay with DS4.0.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Pendraia - 08 December 2012 01:14 PM

IIRC, doesn’t it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

I don’t remember Shader Baker in DS4.0… or at least, if I tried it, I gave up on it… I do know that in 4.5 it works amazing!

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Posted: 08 December 2012 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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wancow - 08 December 2012 01:40 PM
Pendraia - 08 December 2012 01:14 PM

IIRC, doesn’t it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

I don’t remember Shader Baker in DS4.0… or at least, if I tried it, I gave up on it… I do know that in 4.5 it works amazing!

IIRC I think it was but I know that Shadermixer had several changes between 4 and 4.5 it was one of the reasons I wanted to upgrade.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Pendraia - 08 December 2012 01:49 PM
wancow - 08 December 2012 01:40 PM
Pendraia - 08 December 2012 01:14 PM

IIRC, doesn’t it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

I don’t remember Shader Baker in DS4.0… or at least, if I tried it, I gave up on it… I do know that in 4.5 it works amazing!

IIRC I think it was but I know that Shadermixer had several changes between 4 and 4.5 it was one of the reasons I wanted to upgrade.

Shader Baker has been around for a long time…it was in DS 3 (not sure if it was all versions or just A and P versions).  I think it was even in DS 2…

I didn’t specifically list AutoFit keeping morphs as a fix…but it’s kind of both a fix and a feature upgrade.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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mjc1016 - 08 December 2012 12:18 PM
LEI1 - 08 December 2012 11:04 AM

I’ve seen more and more DS4.5 only . I’m a firm believer in ‘if it’s not broken don’t fix it’ ... Even so, while I still don’t understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That’s fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?

But that’s where you are wrong.  4.5, not only adds new functionality…but if fixes quite a few problems in 4.0, not the least of which are some rather major 3Delight problems.  Plus besides fixing the 3Delight problems (some of which were long standing ones, that finally were fixed in the last few updates to 3Delight), it has all the speed improvements those updates include.  The latest beta version (which I haven’t run) includes the 10.0.73 (I think…it’s a 10.7 series)  3Delight, which includes even more speed enhancements (the 10.0.6x in 4.5.1.6 has significant speed improvements over the 10.5x in 4.0). Somewhere between a dozen and two dozen fixes, alone, from 10.5 to 10.6x, for 3Delight.

Then there’s the various internal fixes.

A few of the 4.0 to 4.5 fixes:
Fixed UV set load on very old scenes
Fixed a crash issue when using transfer utility to transfer weights to a figure that was already active in the weightmap brush tool
Fixed an issue where the Inherit Parent Scale option would remain set on bones that were formerly the root but are no longer when converting legacy content during Auto Fit

Here’s the ChangeLog…

http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_5_1_6

Plus, it had been about a year from when 4.0 was released to when 4.5 came out…(10/11 months or so…).

To me the word broken suggest that something is unusable ... the 3Delight engine and DS4 as a whole is definitely not unusable. If you want to argue that improvements have been made that’s another story which I’m in no position to disagree with. But seeing as I use it constantly I can confirm that nothing about DS4 is ‘broken’.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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LEI1 - 08 December 2012 11:04 AM

I’ve seen more and more DS4.5 only products coming out in the store and frankly it’s irritating. I’m a firm believer in ‘if it’s not broken don’t fix it’ ... Even so, while I still don’t understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That’s fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?


I personally have no interest in DS4.5 and my main concern is that Daz isn’t providing legacy installers with all their new content, as they should. Especially with the Daz Original content which I pay a membership fee to get a discount on, and now can’t even use. I’ve passed up on the majority of the new items in the store for this reason, and I’m wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same frustrations or has found a way that legacy users can work with products that are in duf format? I was interested in the Horse2 and I know someone said there’s a remap floating around out there, but I’m wondering how you can even remap something that - like genesis/most genesis content - probably doesn’t have a standard obj (to import into DS) associated with it?


I’m not holding my breath for a solution since I’m pretty sure duf wasn’t created to be backwards compatible, but it would be really nice to hear some official word from Daz on why we’re being cornered into this upgrade and whether us legacy users will eventually have to shop elsewhere for new content!

Just quoting my first post to clarify that I have no hopes of DUF becoming usable in DS4, at least not officially ... my biggest concern is that Daz Original (I’m not really speaking on PA products, because those are obviously at the discretion of the artists) products are coming out without any options for those of us who don’t care to upgrade to DS4.5. I bear no personal grudge against 4.5, it sounds awesome in many ways! Just not awesome or ground breaking enough for me to re-install my entire library and deal with compatibility issues and bugs.

It would be so different if Daz had released this as DS5 and allowed us to run both DS4 and the new build side by side if we chose, but despite the fact that both builds are radically different, they’re basically saying: you MUST have one or the other ... and if you don’t have the one WE want you to have, then you won’t be able to use many of the products currently releasing into the store. And THAT is what I find both unfair and extremely irritating, especially as a PC member. If I’m paying for the discount, I shouldn’t suddenly be limited in what I can buy based on what works in the version of DS I’m running!

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Actually, you don’t need to reinstall anything right off the bat.  There’s a script to fix duplicate IDs which I’ve found works just fine for my needs.  Some content seemed to get lost, but when I found that, it was just a matter of re-installing that particular item.  It hasn’t been a very big deal at all for me.

I highly recommend upgrading.  I think you won’t regret it.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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Mattymanx - 08 December 2012 11:17 AM

In regards to PA owned items, it is up to the PA as to whether or not they will support older versions of the software.  Regardless of whether its DAZ Studio or Poser.


I was actually referring more to Daz Originals ... I actually haven’t seen PA releases that are DS4.5 only yet, maybe I missed them??

 

Mattymanx - 08 December 2012 11:17 AM

If you want to try DS45 but not loose DS4 or even compare the two (and your on a Windows machine) you can do the following

1. Using Winrar or anther compression program of choice, compress your DS4 program folder into a single archive.

2. Move that file somewhere safe where you will not delete it by accident.

3. Uninstall DS4

4. Install DS 4.5

5. Install DS45 content to a newer location then your current content to avoid overwriting your excisting DS4 only content

6. Decompress the DS4 folder to a new location of your choice

7. Create a short cut to the new DS4 location.

I do not know if you can run both at the same time but you can now at least launch one at a time and compare loading times plus overall handeling


I really wish there was a workaround like this for macs! Is there any reason you can’t do the same on MAC OSX? Unfortunately I’m not running Windows, but if I had the option to keep my current install untouched and just give DS4.5 a spin ... I certainly would.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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It is not so much DAZ forcing anyone to update as content creators updating to make their work easier or more flexible. Sometimes they can support older versions with little trouble. Saving shader presets as .dsa files is one example. In other situations supporting the older version would mean redoing the work at least once.

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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cwichura - 08 December 2012 12:03 PM

Besides moving to DUF for cross-app compatibility, 4.5 includes a number of features that very quickly became a standard part of how I build scenes.  Things like group nodes and geometry shells.  And it’s MUCH more responsive.  In 4, if I had a couple figures with subdivision level set to 2 in a scene, the viewport was unusable due to how slowly it updated.  In 4.5, I don’t even notice a slowdown at all.

The original 4.5 was pretty buggy, in particular to saving to the new DUF format.  But DAZ has been very responsive to fixing these types of bugs, and all the stuff I reported was fixed and 4.5.1.6 has been very stable for me; as stable as the last 4.0 was, if not moreso.

Yes, it’s a pain to go through and re-download stuff in your library to fix all the duplicate ID errors.  But that’s a one-time thing.  I grumbled about it, too.  But now it’s done, I could never go back to 4.x.

The only thing in 4.5 I wish they’d revert is the new moronic handling of MLIE definitions.

As to the original question: your workaround is called ‘install 4.5’.  There will never be a DUF importer for 4.x.  It’d be silly for DAZ to move backwards like that.  I recall seeing comments from one PA saying DUF also supports advancements in weight maps, which means it’s more than just an import.  At least DAZ has been supporting 4.x users by including ‘Legacy’ installer options for a bunch of new products.  But that’s partly a function of what the PA provides DAZ when they submit the product.  Eventually that will go away, too.  In the end, you’re just gonna have to bite the bullet and upgrade.

Well install 4.5 definitely isn’t a ‘workaround’ of any kind lol, and the support for Legacy users has been inconsistent - which is basically why I wrote this post. The NightOut suit for Hiro5 and the Horse2 are prime examples of new releases I would have happily purchased had they not been DS4.5 only. This whole post wasn’t at all about comparing DS4 to 4.5, I’m sure 4.5 has lots of cool things going on! My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn’t be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It’s never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don’t really understand why it is the case now??

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Posted: 08 December 2012 06:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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LEI1 - 08 December 2012 06:20 PM

Just quoting my first post to clarify that I have no hopes of DUF becoming usable in DS4, at least not officially ... my biggest concern is that Daz Original (I’m not really speaking on PA products, because those are obviously at the discretion of the artists) products are coming out without any options for those of us who don’t care to upgrade to DS4.5. I bear no personal grudge against 4.5, it sounds awesome in many ways! Just not awesome or ground breaking enough for me to re-install my entire library and deal with compatibility issues and bugs.

It would be so different if Daz had released this as DS5 and allowed us to run both DS4 and the new build side by side if we chose, but despite the fact that both builds are radically different, they’re basically saying: you MUST have one or the other ... and if you don’t have the one WE want you to have, then you won’t be able to use many of the products currently releasing into the store. And THAT is what I find both unfair and extremely irritating, especially as a PC member. If I’m paying for the discount, I shouldn’t suddenly be limited in what I can buy based on what works in the version of DS I’m running!

I totally disagree with your way of thinking. it is “your” choice to not be able to use new products, not DAZs. “You” choose not to install the most current version of DS, you only have yourself to blame. There is nothing keeping you from using the latest products other than your choice in which version of the software to run.

Why would you have to reinstall your whole library? just point the new version to your files.

So basically if in fact the new format is so that the poser users can use genesis content with DSON, you would have them do without simply because you can’t be bothered to move up to the latest build of DS?

 

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