Christmas Tree weirdness

TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
edited November 2012 in The Commons

I've been playing a bit with this Christmas Tree:

http://www.daz3d.com/shop/yuletide-treasure-tree-2011

Excellent product as such, but there's something I don't understand. In the Poser preview it looks like the tree has dropped all its needles on the right side. Doesn't matter if you rotate it, it's the same from all angles.

Likewise, if I set up a symmetric light set, the right side of the tree is equally dark, compared to the left. I have to use a rather asymmetric light setup to make the light look somewhat evenly distributed. It only seems to affect the tree, not the props.

Anyone who knows why that is?

I've attached some pictures to demonstrate what I mean.

christree03.jpg
642 x 806 - 102K
christree02.jpg
642 x 803 - 105K
christree01.jpg
672 x 811 - 171K
Post edited by Taozen on

Comments

  • jmperjmper Posts: 0
    edited November 2012

    Are the needles on the tree billboards rather than geometry? I would imagine they are (I don't have the product) and that can cause issue on how they face the camera and how light and shadow is cast.

    EDIT> Not that I don't fault the maker of the tree. All geometry would be a real system crusher. Not to mention, migraine inducing modeling.

    Post edited by jmper on
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited November 2012

    jmper said:
    Are the needles on the tree billboards rather than geometry? I would imagine they are (I don't have the product) and that can cause issue on how they face the camera and how light and shadow is cast.

    EDIT> Not that I don't fault the maker of the tree. All geometry would be a real system crusher. Not to mention, migraine inducing modeling.

    No idea, don't know what billboards are. But i agree, using geometry would probably be a gigantic task. In any case it's very detailed and looks very good so I don't complain... :)

    I've attached a close up in case that may reveal something:

    christree04.jpg
    490 x 806 - 76K
    Post edited by Taozen on
  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited December 1969

    Does it change anything if you switch preview mode (OpenGL - SreeD or visa-versa)? I have seen that before with transparencies. I assume it is not showing up in the render (those lower images are finished renders, right)?

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 620
    edited December 1969
  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited November 2012

    Billboards are transparent images often used to simulate foliage... a simple example would be a small square UV mapped with a leaf image on a black background... in the transparency setting poser is told NOT to render the black area... the modeler then covers the branch with many similar simple square polygons which will render out as leaves... the simple squares save resources as one does not have to model 6 billion actual leaves.

    Post edited by McGyver on
  • jmperjmper Posts: 0
    edited November 2012

    ***Double post from quoting myself!

    Post edited by jmper on
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited November 2012

    Does it change anything if you switch preview mode (OpenGL - SreeD or visa-versa)? I have seen that before with transparencies. I assume it is not showing up in the render (those lower images are finished renders, right)?

    Well now that you mention it - I've just installed Poser 8 and PP 2012 in Win 7 - 64. In Poser 8 and PP 2012 - 32 the preview only works with SreeD, so I set them to use that. It seems however that this setting also affects PP 2012 - 64 (which I'm using here). I've now set it back to OpenGL, and this is how the preview looks now, in PP 2012 - 64. No difference in the rendered scene though, as far as I can see.

    And yes, the two lower pics of the first three I posted are renders.

    christree05.jpg
    488 x 815 - 93K
    Post edited by Taozen on
  • jmperjmper Posts: 0
    edited November 2012

    Wow...gone for a few minutes and the help posts floodgates open.
    :)

    And looking at the picture you posted, they appear to be billboards to simulate the foliage (as lordvicore indicated). The foliage follows a similar path which would usually indicate a mapped transparency on a flat plane. Usually easier to tell if you observe it in the material room.

    ***GAAAH I quoted myself!

    Post edited by jmper on
  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited December 1969

    araneldon said:
    Hmmm... thats interesting... I wonder if that is the cause of something I had a problem with once... some weird shadows that would show up in a triangulated polygon... I googled it and never really fixed the problem and ended up redoing the part.

  • jmperjmper Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Since it is billboards, the only way I found to make the shadow and light look correct sometimes is to do what you did which was using a specialized light to enhance the offending side.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 5,568
    edited December 1969

    I really like this tree. IT renders quite well... Thanks for posting about it- although-sorry you are having trouble.

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited November 2012

    Looking at that again, it does appear to be made out of billboards... if you look on the left side some of the planes are tilted slightly to and fro.
    My amateur guess is that the preview mode does not see the light interacting "properly" and perceives the whole part as transparent.

    ?

    By the way, you are just asking why this occures (sorta like "is this normal?) and not trying to solve a problem... like you don't actually need this to appear "normal" in preview mode for some reason... right?

    Post edited by McGyver on
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    araneldon said:

    Hey, that seemed to fix it. I checked Normals Forwards for all the needle material groups I could find, and this is how it looks now, with symmetrical lights. Thanks! :)

    christree06.jpg
    643 x 805 - 104K
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    Billboards are transparent images often used to simulate foliage... a simple example would be a small square UV mapped with a leaf image on a black background... in the transparency setting poser is told NOT to render the black area... the modeler then covers the branch with many similar simple square polygons which will render out as leaves... the simple squares save resources as one does not have to model 6 billion actual leaves.

    Well here's how it looks in the material room:

    christree07.jpg
    212 x 206 - 26K
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited November 2012

    I really like this tree. IT renders quite well... Thanks for posting about it- although-sorry you are having trouble.

    Yes, it's an excellent product - have been looking at others (Rendo had one for sale last week) but this is by far the best I've seen yet. And the problem is fixed now as you can see.

    Post edited by Taozen on
  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited November 2012

    Maybe I had that backwards... I forget if it is black or white that is transpartent, I've only made a few parts that were transparancies... but yeah, thats what they look like... I also noticed that if you look at the ground in the preveiw image the shadows on the floor are all there... BUT... for squarish/rectangular objects.

    PS... here are some images from a thread at another site's forums that I was recently following, they sort of show how a leaf would be handled...

    ivy.jpg
    563 x 348 - 113K
    IG8cV.jpg
    590 x 428 - 90K
    Post edited by McGyver on
  • JaguarEllaJaguarElla Posts: 10,645
    edited December 1969

    one side of my tree would look like the first preview after the cats got into it?
    also it may have been too close to the fire ;-P

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited December 1969

    Wendy.... your new avatar is seriously feaking me out... nice though.

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    Looking at that again, it does appear to be made out of billboards... if you look on the left side some of the planes are tilted slightly to and fro.
    My amateur guess is that the preview mode does not see the light interacting "properly" and perceives the whole part as transparent.


    Could be - I don't know much about how this stuff works internally.


    By the way, you are just asking why this occures (sorta like "is this normal?) and not trying to solve a problem... like you don't actually need this to appear "normal" in preview mode for some reason... right?

    Well it doesn't matter that much in preview mode, but it was difficult to get some good lighting in the renders so I wanted to know if this was normal or if something could be done about it.

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    one side of my tree would look like the first preview after the cats got into it?
    also it may have been too close to the fire ;-P

    Maybe the Millennium Cats in my runtime have been playing with it... :)

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited November 2012

    Ah, I see... Yup, that is a big problem with Poser... I hate having to fiddle with the lights, and that damn little ball with the pins sticking out of it is virtually useless (to me- some like it)...
    You could try subsituting a primative cone of equal size maybe, to get a better idea where shadows will fall and then swapping back to the tree when you are satisfied... but as far as I know, there is probably not much you could do to change that...
    You could also try making a simalar thread like this one over at Renerosity in the Poser Q&A section... this would double your chances of getting a better answer if there is one.

    I don't know if you do this or if this is of any help, but I mostly postition lights manually by selecting them and them placing them roughly where I think they should go, using the TOP, LEFT, RIGHT,FRONT,BACK and or Bottom cameras.
    Its a pain in the butt, yet it works better than that stupid ball.

    Also... I think there is a way of "looking through" the light when using spotlights (if you are)... I forget how to do it and I don't have Poser with me or my Poser books either, at the moment...
    This method lets you get a better idea where they are aimed... Yeah, I really hope I'm not hallucinating this feature, or its not in some other program.


    Kids... always wear a helmet, or you'll end up like me when you get older.

    Post edited by McGyver on
  • MistyMistMistyMist Posts: 15,554
    edited December 1969

    i think you're referring to the shadow cams :)

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited November 2012

    AH YEAH! Stoooooooopid me. I knew it was something you see all the time but I'm always too lazy to really check out. Probably works real good and makes your life easier too. HA!

    Post edited by McGyver on
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    Ah, I see... Yup, that is a big problem with Poser... I hate having to fiddle with the lights, and that damn little ball with the pins sticking out of it is virtually useless (to me- some like it)...
    You could try subsituting a primative cone of equal size maybe, to get a better idea where shadows will fall and then swapping back to the tree when you are satisfied... but as far as I know, there is probably not much you could do to change that...
    You could also try making a simalar thread like this one over at Renerosity in the Poser Q&A section... this would double your chances of getting a better answer if there is one.

    Well the problem here wasn't really the lights, it appeared. After I checked the Normals Forward boxes, they lights not behave normally with the tree. So no problem here.


    I don't know if you do this or if this is of any help, but I mostly postition lights manually by selecting them and them placing them roughly where I think they should go, using the TOP, LEFT, RIGHT,FRONT,BACK and or Bottom cameras.
    Its a pain in the butt, yet it works better than that stupid ball.

    Yea, I do that too sometimes but I'm usually too lazy to do it. The ball is sort of okay for me, I just wish it - and the dials as well- could be easily fine tuned. If it's a heavy scene everything is delayed and jumps forth and back and it's difficult to hit the right setting. It's probably difficult fine tuning the light ball (though I have some ideas for how to do it) but with the dials it would be easy to make it so the sensitivity was increased or decreased x10 or whatever you choose, if you press ctrl or something. You can actually change the sensitivity but you have to open an annoying dialog box every time so for all practical purposes it's more or less useless.


    Also... I think there is a way of "looking through" the light when using spotlights (if you are)... I forget how to do it and I don't have Poser with me or my Poser books either, at the moment...
    This method lets you get a better idea where they are aimed... Yeah, I really hope I'm not hallucinating this feature, or its not in some other program.

    AFAIR Carrara has that feature also though I haven't used it yet. Will check the Poser manual to see if I can find something about it.

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 1,005
    edited December 1969

    At this point I don't know if this info is relevant or useful anymore, but I found some info in one of my Poser books... basically go to the render settings window and click the preview tab, in the next window and in the "transparency display" section you can try fiddling with those settings to see if it helps your situation any.
    I haven't tried fiddling with these settings yet myself... Sorry if you know about this already or is this is useless.

    Picture_4.png
    658 x 540 - 102K
  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,211
    edited December 1969

    At this point I don't know if this info is relevant or useful anymore, but I found some info in one of my Poser books... basically go to the render settings window and click the preview tab, in the next window and in the "transparency display" section you can try fiddling with those settings to see if it helps your situation any.

    This setting doesn't seem to have any effect on the tree in the preview. But how the preview looks doesn't mattter so much - the real problem was with the render, but that has been solved. But thanks anyway! :)

Sign In or Register to comment.
Rocket Fuel