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Is Carrara dead?
Posted: 27 November 2012 05:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]
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Rhiana - 27 November 2012 03:32 AM

The whole Menu/GUI of Carrara doesn’t cover half of your workspace, like in DazStudio, Poser and even Bryce. You have a lot room to see your whole scene and you can navigate your camera through it without getting cramps in your hand… and you can pose your figures or manipulate things directly with your mouse, without using annoying wheel-/slide bars.

Yeah, exactly why I like the Carrara interface so much. I really think it’s a brilliant design. Very simple, lots of viewing space, and using simple navigation buttons to get around. And you can sit in a recliner with your laptop and a mouse on the table beside you without having to sit up and start doing keyboard shortcuts.

Now you can replicate a little of that in Blender, like make translate/rotate/scale manipulators on your objects, but the whole “keyboard shortcut to do anything” concept in Blender drives me nuts. Yeah, for the super power users it’s important to have, but for most people it’s just annoying. Geez, someone please just make a plugin with camera navigation buttons and object translate/rotate/scale buttons. When you have to memorize three-fingered shortcuts while you stand on one leg and bark like a dog just to move a camera around, something is definitely wrong.

But unfortunately I don’t think “interface design” and “ease of use” will sell many copies of Carrara.

I just hope that giving away DAZ Studio, with its convoluted and confusing interface (IMO, at least), didn’t cause a lot of potential customers to just shake their heads and give up. I used it for quite a while, and I still get confused when I open it up.

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Posted: 27 November 2012 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]
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Titanic401 - 27 November 2012 01:52 AM

And don’t give me the nonsense that C would cost even more if they added a bunch of new feature because Blender does it on a regular basis and is still FREE.

That is a slight re-wording on the argument that JoeMamma has put forth repeatedly in other threads. It simply isn’t financially viable to enhance Carrara is his thesis.

The hiccup with comparing Carrara and Blender is that the Blender devs are legions of coders who work on bits of the project in their spare time. I’d wager that very few are at full-time and earning a living wage at doing so. Comparing any commercial product with open source falls down here. Why isn’t this argument being made for LightWave or Maya versus Blender?

Titanic401 - 27 November 2012 01:52 AM

I also don’t want to hear the ridiculous arguments that Blender can do that because of it’s software is constantly maintained and updated by willing 3rd party programmers

Of course you don’t want to hear that. It is the CORE critique of your flawed comparison. Tossing that aside lets you blow holes in Carrara with impunity.

Titanic401 - 27 November 2012 01:52 AM

Carrara would probably have all kinds of new features if the SDK wasn’t so offputting.

I don’t know anything about the SDK. But documentation is most certainly an Achilles heel for DAZ. This is a much more supportable criticism than the commercial/open source tack.

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Posted: 27 November 2012 06:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]
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Garstor - 27 November 2012 05:50 AM
Titanic401 - 27 November 2012 01:52 AM

And don’t give me the nonsense that C would cost even more if they added a bunch of new feature because Blender does it on a regular basis and is still FREE.

That is a slight re-wording on the argument that JoeMamma has put forth repeatedly in other threads. It simply isn’t financially viable to enhance Carrara is his thesis.

The hiccup with comparing Carrara and Blender is that the Blender devs are legions of coders who work on bits of the project in their spare time. I’d wager that very few are at full-time and earning a living wage at doing so. Comparing any commercial product with open source falls down here. Why isn’t this argument being made for LightWave or Maya versus Blender?

Titanic401 - 27 November 2012 01:52 AM

I also don’t want to hear the ridiculous arguments that Blender can do that because of it’s software is constantly maintained and updated by willing 3rd party programmers

Of course you don’t want to hear that. It is the CORE critique of your flawed comparison. Tossing that aside lets you blow holes in Carrara with impunity.

Titanic401 - 27 November 2012 01:52 AM

Carrara would probably have all kinds of new features if the SDK wasn’t so offputting.

I don’t know anything about the SDK. But documentation is most certainly an Achilles heel for DAZ. This is a much more supportable criticism than the commercial/open source tack.

That reminds me of the question that’s in my head for a while now.

Why not allowing Carrara to become Open Source like Blender. Since Daz, apparently, doesn’t see any real financial gain in this software anymore, they could as well hand it over to the community.

There is still the possibility to make money with content, after all.

Blender is nice and has many nice features. But it is still not as comfortable to use as Carrara, plus it can’t really work with Poser or Daz Content.
And don’t forget that many people, me inlcuded, have accumulated tons of content over the years… and just throwing it away in order to move over to Camp Blender… I don’t know.
Nope. I very much prefer Carrara and its whole interface, shader system and and and :D

 

 

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Posted: 27 November 2012 06:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 27 November 2012 05:27 AM

Yeah, exactly why I like the Carrara interface so much. I really think it’s a brilliant design. Very simple, lots of viewing space, and using simple navigation buttons to get around.

I don’t use DS or Poser, so I cannot compare interfaces myself. There is a lot going for the Carrara interface - agreed wholeheartedly. But “brilliant” is absolutely undeserved as an adjective. There is some stuff that is flat-out stupid; things that even someone writing in Visual BASIC could do better…

The floating windows on multiple monitors are a gigantic pain…with only the lower-right as the region that can resize them. The Browser/Sequencer covers most of my second monitor; but somehow, the lower-right resize area has slipped off-screen (even the title bar is nearly off at the top of the monitor). I long ago gave up trying to find out how to re-adjust the window size.

Far worse than that is the Motion tab on the Properties window. Using a nail gun on your hand and desk is more pleasurable than trying to use the spin buttons to adjust values. When you directly type a value in—i.e. setting the size of X to 1.23 m—the control retains the input focus so when you press “d” to switch your camera to Dolly the letter overwrites the 1.23 value. A modal dialog box then whines to you about the invalid value. Holy f*** devs!!! REALLY?!?!?!? It is so simple to capture keystrokes before they get to the control…you can easily intercept the “d” and simply switch to Dolly rather than allow a letter to overwrite a numeric-only control value. Like I said, that is something you learn in week #2 of using VB… It is by far my biggest peeve with Carrara.

You’re stuck in just one unit (meters or feet). This is where LightWave impresses me. You can type in mixed units and even equations for its dimensions. Imagine setting a length of an edge to “13.2 in + (383 mm / 1.8 ft)”. Okay, not often you need that…but even switching units within metric or imperial measurements is vastly more flexible than what Carrara allows.

JoeMamma2000 - 27 November 2012 05:27 AM

...but the whole “keyboard shortcut to do anything” concept in Blender drives me nuts. Yeah, for the super power users it’s important to have, but for most people it’s just annoying.

That is like LightWave too. I grant you that it is very cumbersome for a new user to comprehend. Once the learning curve has been climbed, it does grant a huge amount of rapid work and editing power though.

JoeMamma2000 - 27 November 2012 05:27 AM

But unfortunately I don’t think “interface design” and “ease of use” will sell many copies of Carrara.

Those items alone…no, they won’t help. But combined with usability and some degree of editing power, they go a long way.

 

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Posted: 27 November 2012 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]
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Rhiana - 27 November 2012 06:14 AM

Why not allowing Carrara to become Open Source like Blender. Since Daz, apparently, doesn’t see any real financial gain in this software anymore, they could as well hand it over to the community.

There is still the possibility to make money with content, after all.

Excellent question! It has often been stated here that DAZ makes no money on Carrara sales and that their future plans are only to sell more content. If that is true, then why not spin off Carrara?

Whether it goes to a company that keeps it commercial but actually plans to make money on it or if it goes open source…as long as it gets some love and attention. Then the market can decide if it lives or dies as a product.

 

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Posted: 27 November 2012 07:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]
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I have used all three apps off and on for awhile I have also used the high end apps all clunky in their own way. Qne that has not been mentioned here is Animation Master a real all in one 3d app imho. Carrara seems to be a jack of all trades master of ? my expierance is too many things just don’t work import export toy or tool ? DS is far more innovative mimic live great concept. Carrara open source maybe the answer, I agree totally DAZ seems geared toward selling content not of much interest for content creation.

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Posted: 27 November 2012 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]
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Sorry, I often work from note pad.

“there’s a difference between a debate, and an argument”.3dage

And I’ll argue that that is debatable wink

“Ditch the whole “separate room” thing, and integrate everything into a single work area for starters.” Titanic401

No. One of the things I love about carrara is everything isn’t in one room. I like being able to change rooms when I change jobs and having the tools for that specific job right there. One of the things I hated about Maya was all the tools for every job was right there all the time so my actual work space was quite small, the rest of the screen taken up by stacks of tool bars.

“everytime I’m in a forum about a particular piece of software the only people really complaining they can’t get the software to work properly are the Apple users” Titanic401

Agree. What I read in most forums has convinced me to never go apple.


“And don’t give me the nonsense that C would cost even more if they added a bunch of new feature because Blender does it on a regular basis and is still FREE.” Titanic401

There is a difference between a volunteer; Blender devs, and an employee; DAZ devs.

“The whole Menu/GUI of Carrara doesn’t cover half of your workspace, like in DazStudio, Poser and even Bryce.” Rhiana

Agree, but you could have went on with that list by adding nonDAZ apps. wink

I am easily confused so I don’t want extraneous tools in my work space. I also don’t want tool/options I use all the time buried in a subfolder. This is one of those things I point out when saying carrara is being changed to be too much like studio.

This is sort of my poster child of “unnecessary, illogical changes to carrara” the 0 pose 0 figure used to be buttons on the character’s general settings. Right there , easy to click. Now they are in a sub menu of animation. Why other then to make the carrara interface more studio like?

Or how about on going requests for something that seems simple enough to do, like be able to set font size on the UI?

Carrara isn’t dead but a bit of simple plastic surgery to remove some warts would make it easier to look at wink 

One big thing that would actual help out the situation even more then a new feature, would be some real communication, like keeping the user base, fans, DAZ customers, informed.

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Posted: 27 November 2012 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]
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JUST SELL US THE DAMN 8.5 SERIAL NUMBER SO WE CAN GET ON WITH OUR LIVES!!!!! shock

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Posted: 27 November 2012 10:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 27 November 2012 05:27 AM

When you have to memorize three-fingered shortcuts while you stand on one leg and bark like a dog just to move a camera around, something is definitely wrong.

Do you need a webcam and microphone for the application to take “Stand on one leg” and “bark like a dog” inputs?

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Posted: 27 November 2012 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]
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holly wetcircuit - 27 November 2012 10:42 AM

JUST SELL US THE DAMN 8.5 SERIAL NUMBER SO WE CAN GET ON WITH OUR LIVES!!!!! shock

AMEN

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Posted: 27 November 2012 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]
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and stop flogging

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Posted: 27 November 2012 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]
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Rhiana - 27 November 2012 06:14 AM

That reminds me of the question that’s in my head for a while now.

Why not allowing Carrara to become Open Source like Blender. Since Daz, apparently, doesn’t see any real financial gain in this software anymore, they could as well hand it over to the community.

Oh Rhiana (and Garstor - just noticed you posted something similar), nobody knows that for a fact in this forum. They are still charging for Carrara in the store and according to Jay in an earlier post in this thread, they do have plans for it. They had plans for 9 right away after 8.5 until Genesis came along and then we all jumped up and said we wanted bugs squashed for 8.5 along with Genesis. I’d say it’s taking longest because of Genesis and all the changes at DAZ with the website, the store and now we learned they moved, too. In addition, we know bugs are hard to fix - so lots of time involved for a really overworked DAZ staff.

What is more accurate to say is that DAZ does not make a lot of money off software, they make it off content. It is also very accurate to say that implementing lots of new spiffy features is not cheap. If DAZ didn’t see any financial gain in Carrara, it would be free, too, like Studio and Bryce. When that happens to Carrara, then you will know that they consider no real gain with it. But in the meantime, we already have been told that 8.5 will be a paid upgrade and they are still charging for Carrara… the list price is high, but with sales and coupons, etc., not many ever pay full price.

I, too, find Carrara’s interface easier to use and there are fewer steps to get things done compared to other programs, so there is ease of use. That was a selling point years ago. I wish Sub 7th was still around this forum as his fruit bowl tute really showed how quick and easy some things are in Carrara compared to other programs, even more than PhilW or Mark Bremmer, and they are really good in their tutes.

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Posted: 27 November 2012 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]
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Kevin Sanderson - 27 November 2012 12:31 PM

(and Garstor - just noticed you posted something similar), nobody knows that for a fact in this forum.

I find that I defend DAZ more often than not. That is waning these days though.

Carrara is still something I’ll use a lot, no matter what happens with it. I just bought LightWave earlier today and expect it to become my tool of choice though.

As previously stated, it would please me to no end for a DAZ developer to drop into these forums—even once a month—with a short update on the progress of C8.5. Many companies are becoming more and more open and transparent (i.e. Channel 9 at Microsoft)—but DAZ prefers to keep us in the dark and allowing us to concoct fanciful tales about what might be going on… That’s sad.

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Posted: 27 November 2012 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]
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Titanic401 - 27 November 2012 01:52 AM

These were my sediments (SENTIMENTS! sediments are geologic) EP back in the days of Blender 2.49, I never could understand how DAZ expected customers to spend $500+ dollars on Carrara that can’t even come close to Blender that’s given away for free. Who would really be that stupid?

As for Apple, let’s face it - people only use Apple’s to be “seen” using an Apple. These Apple fans are constantly badmouthing PC’s and Windows yet everytime I’m in a forum about a particular piece of software the only people really complaining they can’t get the software to work properly are the Apple users. I have yet to ever have ANY problems with my trusty PC.


I’m sorry, when did Apple come into this? I have had numerous flavors of Macs throughout the years and all have been able to run Carrara just fine. In fact, I run a mixed network with a PPC G4(32 bit)  running OS X 10.5.x, a PPC G5 (64 bit and host machine) running OS X 10.4.xx and an Intel iMac running OS 10 10.6.x Snow Leopard. The only issue I’ve had, is a problem with certain procedural shaders that use random functions not working correctly. Avoidable, but annoying. I’ve also read complaints about this from Windows users. I do use Carrara Pro 7.2 so you’d think Snow Leopard wouldn’t even be able to launch my version, but it does.


If you guys want to piss and moan about Carrara being dead all day, that’s fine. If you want to hate on a computer platform that you have little to no knowledge of, go right ahead, but to those that have been here awhile (ManStan- Ahem!) I would point out that in Carrara 6 and the first iteration of Carrara 7, anybody that had a Windows 32 bit system had to get a script to be Large Address Aware (or something like it.) Oh yes, let’s not forget all the threads started by people who can’t figure out why they have to keep entering their serial numbers! My point is, for every flaw in Apple’s hardware and OS, I can point to an equal number of Windows and Intel screw ups.


One other thing I should also point out, is that DAZ is equally at fault for some of the OS X issues by not programming correctly and getting rid of legacy code. As much as I hate to say it, My main rig is obsolete. PPC is a dead architecture, and Cocoa and the code that allowed for Universal Apps is discontinued. Apple made no secret of killing the code- Especially Cocoa. There’s no reason DAZ should still include it in it’s software. I suspect getting rid of it would help stabilize their software.


Titanic401, if you want to act like a troll and try to start a platform war, with little to no relevance to the discussion at hand, then be my guest. Act like the very Apple users you claim permeate other forums. Judging by your post, I’m afraid I’m going to also have to assume that you’re a potential Blender troll as well as a Windows troll. But hey, I’ve been wrong before and actions speak louder than words. I’m hoping you prove me wrong.

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Posted: 27 November 2012 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]
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Garstor - 27 November 2012 06:16 AM

But “brilliant” is absolutely undeserved as an adjective. There is some stuff that is flat-out stupid; things that even someone writing in Visual BASIC could do better…

I was just trying to say something nice for a change….  smile

My point was that the design concept is very simple and easy to use. One hand on the mouse, no need to memorize keyboard shortcuts, nice view of the scene, easy navigation, and I love the whole “manipulator” design. Compared to other apps it’s, IMO, a whole lot nicer to use.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right, there are specifics I hadn’t thought of that could be done much better (hell, the entire vertex modeller is a disaster, IMO…just compare it to the Hex implementation, or any other decent modeller out there). 

And for those who are jumping on Titanic, I think he was just kidding with that post.

Heck, the moment he said “he’s never had a problem with his PC” I knew he was secretly “LMAO"ing while he typed.

As far as open sourcing Carrara, my only question is this: Why?

If it was your company, and you owned the software, why would you give it away? They already gave away all their other software, except for the code, and from the sounds of it there’s really not a decent SDK available for Carrara. So what are you gaining as a company? Why give away the code?

Yeah, it might be a good thing for users, after a bunch of years, if enough people get interested, and figure out the code without a decent SDK, and start developing. But in the Open Source world of CG apps, Blender is already out there for those who want to donate time to working on a CG app. And what does DAZ gain? They lose total control of it, and it no longer can serve as a vehicle for their content because users choose what gets implemented.

And that was one good point that Andy made (at least that I could make sense of), that it’s in DAZ’s best interest to maintain control over the software so they can ensure there is software out there that works well with their content.

And Garstor, you just bought Lightwave? Wow. I’d be interested to hear how that goes. I’ve got an old version sitting gathering dust on my DVD shelf. I vowed “never again” after they went thru that ridiculous “CORE” fiasco. And they couldn’t manage a decent cloth or dynamics sim. And there was no decent hair sim in sight after S&H bailed from LW. And everyone was bailing from the company. I hope things have turned around with LW 11.

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