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Bryce and Mac (Mountain Lion)
Posted: 30 November 2012 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
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angusm - 30 November 2012 09:58 AM

Vue is, of course, aimed squarely at the same niche as Bryce. Given chohole’s known fanaticism on the subject of Bryce and the rather intimidating look of that awfully big stick, I won’t go so far as to suggest that Vue might actually be better than Bryce (heresy! heresy! stone the blasphemer! smile ) ... but let’s just say that it’s a very good program and generates some extremely impressive results. The catch, of course, is that to measure up to Bryce 7 Pro, you’d probably need to get the Vue Studio version, which will set you back a mere $400. They have occasional discounts, but it’s still a big investment.

Certainly, Vue’s environment and instancing is much more efficient, flexible and reliable than Bryce and in my limited experience with it, it also renders much faster (I’ve done a few animations using Vue’s most basic module)... If I had spare money or could justify the expense with a paid job that required it, I would really like to buy the full set of Vue modules and spend time exploring it… It would cost a lot more than $400 to do that though and the learning curve would eat away at my Bryce time. smile

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Posted: 30 November 2012 10:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
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TheSavage64 - 30 November 2012 10:25 AM
angusm - 30 November 2012 09:58 AM

Vue is, of course, aimed squarely at the same niche as Bryce. Given chohole’s known fanaticism on the subject of Bryce and the rather intimidating look of that awfully big stick, I won’t go so far as to suggest that Vue might actually be better than Bryce (heresy! heresy! stone the blasphemer! smile ) ... but let’s just say that it’s a very good program and generates some extremely impressive results. The catch, of course, is that to measure up to Bryce 7 Pro, you’d probably need to get the Vue Studio version, which will set you back a mere $400. They have occasional discounts, but it’s still a big investment.

Certainly, Vue’s environment and instancing is much more efficient, flexible and reliable than Bryce and in my limited experience with it, it also renders much faster (I’ve done a few animations using Vue’s most basic module)... If I had spare money or could justify the expense with a paid job that required it, I would really like to buy the full set of Vue modules and spend time exploring it… It would cost a lot more than $400 to do that though and the learning curve would eat away at my Bryce time. smile

well Vue is 64 bit multi-core capable so it can use more resources,  I haven’t used Vue since version 6 (pro), Bryce is ALOT easier to use and learn.  unless I was getting paid to use Vue on a regular basis, I doubt I will go back to it.  and it would be cheaper to get a windows netbook just for bryce than to buy Vue version X pro.  images are images, and object files are object files, they don’t care about OS or hardware.  or whether or not a mountain lion is coming through your windows

 

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Posted: 30 November 2012 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
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Yes I agree, my interest in Vue was for it’s amazing animation capabilities. Sadly I haven’t had any paid animation work for a few years as I’ve been spending so much time doing packaging design which Bryce does most excellently.

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Posted: 30 November 2012 11:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
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TheSavage64 - 30 November 2012 06:32 AM

You’re right, a development cycle shouldn’t take over 2 years.
But we’re dealing here with an application that when it was written was maverick and has been botched and patched by several companies over the years and uses code that quite frankly from what I read is a minefield of obscurity and confusion.
My guess is that finding someone with the right skill set to understand Mountain Lion integration as well as understanding code written in obscure 20 year old language that no one uses anymore is proving difficult… especially when Apple abandoned the utility that Bryce required to make that obscure code run on it’s operating system.

You know, at this point it may actually be easier to build a native Linux port of it and then make a Mac build from there…

In any case, one of the most desperately needed things is a serious clean-up and modernizing of the codebase. 

And something, that should possibly be considered, if there are truly no development plans…open source it.

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Posted: 30 November 2012 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
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mjc1016 - 30 November 2012 11:25 AM

You know, at this point it may actually be easier to build a native Linux port of it and then make a Mac build from there…

Or just find someone to write a Mac OS utility that solved the apparent problem of Bryce and Mac OS not getting along.
OK, that would still only be a Band-Aid, but it would at least get Bryce running on new Macs again, which would be a start.

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Posted: 30 November 2012 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
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I’ve never had Vue d’Esprit but seen a lot of renders - even participated in a Vue gallery with Bryce renders, which were tolerated (and soon “vuers” were amazed what Bryce can do - v6 at the time). The ecosystem Vue has is amazing. Vue is a really capable landscaper. What I observed is that all rendered images looked soft, not really sharp. But that must not mean Vue can’t do better, it might have been the choice of the artists. I didn’t like it.

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Posted: 30 November 2012 03:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
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Horo - 30 November 2012 06:01 AM

Yes, it does: DAZ-soon.

Soon is a relative term, soon as in a few weeks, a few months or a few years.  Right now soon is not an answer it is a dodge.

mjc1016 - 30 November 2012 06:19 AM

Vista fit your criteria of ‘long dev cycle’ and ‘established software’...

As to ‘no Apple’...just who was making/selling the ][ series…Banana? Cherry? Blueberry?

I didn’t ‘HAVE’ to go back to the beginning…I chose to.

Actually Vista was a short Dev cycle for Microsoft. 

TheSavage64 - 30 November 2012 06:32 AM

And did any of those companies buy up the competition and then develop them so they were 10 times better before killing them?
The fact that the enhancements that Daz has made to Bryce have turned it from a hobby software into a serious piece of kit with some of the most advanced lighting options available in any software package show a level of commitment to developing the product.
As has been pointed several times in these sorts of threads, Daz were caught short footed by Apple’s decision to stop supporting Rosetta when they released Lion. By that time, the only person they had who could code crunch Bryce had an expired contract and had left Daz’s employment. Daz does have many problems operating as a company that tries to look much much bigger than it really is but your assertion that they are deliberately letting Bryce die is not supported by the sheer amount of development that they (and the good people of this forum who were on the steering committee) have put into the product.

AE killed Dungeon Keeper 3, and shut the doors of Bullfrog almost a month or so after buying it up. EA is known to screw up software they get their paws on, so no… they never made the software better.

TheSavage64 - 30 November 2012 06:32 AM

You’re right, a development cycle shouldn’t take over 2 years.
But we’re dealing here with an application that when it was written was maverick and has been botched and patched by several companies over the years and uses code that quite frankly from what I read is a minefield of obscurity and confusion.
My guess is that finding someone with the right skill set to understand Mountain Lion integration as well as understanding code written in obscure 20 year old language that no one uses anymore is proving difficult… especially when Apple abandoned the utility that Bryce required to make that obscure code run on it’s operating system.

You know what you needs to happen then, they need to get it re-written from the ground up, otherwise it is never going to come out.

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Posted: 30 November 2012 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
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Matt Ridge - 30 November 2012 03:53 PM
TheSavage64 - 30 November 2012 06:32 AM

And did any of those companies buy up the competition and then develop them so they were 10 times better before killing them?
The fact that the enhancements that Daz has made to Bryce have turned it from a hobby software into a serious piece of kit with some of the most advanced lighting options available in any software package show a level of commitment to developing the product.
As has been pointed several times in these sorts of threads, Daz were caught short footed by Apple’s decision to stop supporting Rosetta when they released Lion. By that time, the only person they had who could code crunch Bryce had an expired contract and had left Daz’s employment. Daz does have many problems operating as a company that tries to look much much bigger than it really is but your assertion that they are deliberately letting Bryce die is not supported by the sheer amount of development that they (and the good people of this forum who were on the steering committee) have put into the product.

AE killed Dungeon Keeper 3, and shut the doors of Bullfrog almost a month or so after buying it up. EA is known to screw up software they get their paws on, so no… they never made the software better.

Game companies are especially known for being extremely cut-throat like that…not everyone else is.

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Posted: 30 November 2012 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
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Due to this thread being Mac specific, I hadn’t visited it earlier but have just caught some of the conversation.

It does all sound a mess on the face of it, but when it comes to development of Bryce, I tend to take notice of Dan and Horo because both have rubbed virtual shoulders with the original programmers or at least that’s what I’ve always thought.  I have to agree in that getting one of the original coders working on Bryce would be the answer to a lot of problems, but not all ...

Even better (and in DAZ’s best interest for future development) would be to get an original coder back for at least one development cycle and to bring Vasily back at the same time so that they can work together, and any special insights can be passed on to Vasily.  A lot of people won’t realise this, but Vasily had the unenviable task of having to not only work on Bryce, but with masses of code that would effectively be alien to him until he studied it.

He not only managed to do that, but managed to understand what we needed for TA improvements and stuff like that without even being told.  He’d say something to us, knock off a quick patch and throw it at us in no time at all, and guess what, whenever he did that it turned out that it was what we needed and we didn’t even know it.  A lot of the niceties in the new TA are actually down to Vasily’s insight and understanding of what Bryce is, what TA is, and what we want.  Of course we got what we wanted as well otherwise Blaine got an earful, but a lot of it is down to Vasily being good at what he does, he does the refinements we haven’t a clue about.

To that end, even if DAZ weren’t able to get one of the original coders back on the team, Vasily is still our salvation.  He’s also someone with a genuine love for the program otherwise he wouldn’t have spent night after night of his own time coding for us (we have a lot to thank Vasily for).  I hope that whatever happens, he is there too.  I think he’s our best bet for the future, and given any “secrets of the Bryce code”, I reckon he’d be unstoppable.

The hiring of two coders would obviously be a greater expense to DAZ, but it’s an expense for ensuring a future by passing the secrets on to the new generation.  If that doesn’t happen, any secrets will always lie with the original coders, and that’s not good for DAZ or the development or future of Bryce.  DAZ will kill every penny they ever spent so far on Bryce if these special skills or secrets don’t get passed on to those worth passing it on to.

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Posted: 30 November 2012 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
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pumeco - 30 November 2012 07:19 PM

DAZ will kill every penny they ever spent so far on Bryce if these special skills or secrets don’t get passed on to those worth passing it on to.

As far as DAZ pennies are concerned, any “special skills or secrets” should be located securely within the worthy ownership of DAZ.

If DAZ doesn’t own the intellectual property of Bryce, then it might as well spend its pennies on the detritus between the keys of my keyboard (account details on request).

 

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Posted: 30 November 2012 08:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
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Exactly, but that’s the way it is; DAZ effectively own something they know nothing about (or not enough about).

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Posted: 30 November 2012 11:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
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Matt Ridge - 30 November 2012 03:53 PM

You know what you needs to happen then, they need to get it re-written from the ground up, otherwise it is never going to come out.

Now that statement I agree with but there are a couple of issues probably most important is that to do that would cost far more then taking something that’s already set and try to make it better (what has been happening until now with Bryce). Part of the issue here is that Daz can’t afford to keep all the necessary programmers for the Mac version of Bryce on staff full time. So if that’s the case it’s unlikely they’ll be able to afford to rewrite it from the ground up. The second issue is why should they when it’s still working fine for PC and the PC market of Bryce is bigger?

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Posted: 01 December 2012 02:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
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Matt Ridge - 30 November 2012 03:53 PM
Horo - 30 November 2012 06:01 AM

Yes, it does: DAZ-soon.

Soon is a relative term, soon as in a few weeks, a few months or a few years.

 

This is exactly what “DAZ-soon” means.

 

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Posted: 01 December 2012 02:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
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pumeco - 30 November 2012 07:19 PM

Vasily is still our salvation.  He’s also someone with a genuine love for the program otherwise he wouldn’t have spent night after night of his own time coding for us (we have a lot to thank Vasily for).  I hope that whatever happens, he is there too.  I think he’s our best bet for the future, and given any “secrets of the Bryce code”, I reckon he’d be unstoppable.

I couldn’t agree more. Vasily had worked more than one weekend on his own initiative without being paid for. And he kept us busy with testing the patches which made it into the final code eventually. Hard to find a more dedicated “brycer”.

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Posted: 04 December 2012 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
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Thanks a lot for your observations and perspectives on alternatives to Bryce.
I started using Bryce on a Mac in ‘97 and I believe most of us understand it’s value and why we enjoy it.
I’ll keep watching and do a little less waiting. I’m going to try out Vue Pioneer and get back to you all.

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