Digital Art Zone

 
   
5 of 6
5
Better Renderer?
Posted: 06 November 2012 01:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  719
Joined  2008-05-05
mjc1016 - 06 November 2012 01:06 PM

There are faster ways to do AO in 3Delight, that aren’t readily evident through DS, but are accessible (at least now…point-cloud).  Most of the current AO solutions aren’t really optimized, on top of everything else (start/stop distances make a big difference, same with samples…not everything needs to be done at 128 or even 32).

I’d love to know more about this.  I’ve JUST downloaded the standalone 3Delight.  I often get terribly grainy AO in DS unless I take 50 years to render.  For example, the image here (in its original 2400 x 2268 resolution) took 25 hours to render.  The displacement settings (hard to see in small test renders) are not right, but I wasn’t about to correct it and render again!

Image Attachments
radiance.jpg
 Signature 

One in 150 children is diagnosed with autism. One is mine.

My deviantArt Gallery: http://karibous-boutique.deviantart.com/
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  396
Joined  2005-11-10

With tutorials I am so far behind on the ones that I have promised I will write. 
I suppose the next time I make a set of lights for a set for the sore I should record what I do with some screen shots and that would be an almost like a mini tutorial . 

In case you are wondering I do a lot of the DS lights for the Art Collaboration set. (especially the ones in the store with my name on as well)

 Signature 

Community Volunteer:
My DAZ Store 

NeilV Poser Stuff & Chohole’s Space

Old Post Count = 6362

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  2303
Joined  2010-12-18
KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 01:26 PM
larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 12:14 PM

Here is an example of some hair I rendered without bells and whistles and I filled it out a bit with painting. Not realistic at all but I enjoy the style.

If I had your talent for painting, I would undoubtedly do the same.  I’m envious of your lovely postwork.  That’s an area where I struggle—my creative vision and my abilities are far apart.  One can practice and improve… but some artistic things really do come down to inborn talent.  Your image is truly lovely!

thanks much for the kind words.

KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 01:38 PM

I often get terribly grainy AO in DS unless I take 50 years to render.  For example, the image here (in its original 2400 x 2268 resolution) took 25 hours to render.  The displacement settings (hard to see in small test renders) are not right, but I wasn’t about to correct it and render again!

Lovely image. That ponytail has legendary render times even without bells and whistles. And it takes up a lot of the frame. Not to say that is a good reason for a 25hour render, but it now I understand what you mean about slow. The longest 3DL render I did was about 7-8 hours but it had hair, very large fairy wings (trans mapped of course) and a lot of grass and tress in the background. Resolution was around 2400x3800. I can’t bear to wait that long for a render either so I can understand your reserve.

The more renders you do the better you get and it’s no fun waiting for your computer to finish. thanks for the reference image and how long it took, it really puts it all in perspective.

 Signature 

My deviantArt Pinup Gallery

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  45
Joined  2012-04-10

Thanks everyone for your input on which is better, I most render animations and not super hi res renders so I’d rather not use Lux. I’ve used Lux before and for me it takes forever to render it properly without any grain at all.
I guess I have to read up about some AO and shaders, because I have no idea how to use them. I only know how to work around textures and I’m used to Maya and 3ds Max

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  719
Joined  2008-05-05
NeilV 1 - 06 November 2012 02:20 PM

In case you are wondering I do a lot of the DS lights for the Art Collaboration set. (especially the ones in the store with my name on as well)


Awesome!  I *heart* ART Collaborations.  And I wish I knew more about DS lighting.  I’ll admit, it confuses me.  Using Poser is like using an extension of my arm.  I’m still working out that learning curve with DS.  Love the program, though—just not the render times.

2getit - 06 November 2012 02:44 PM

I guess I have to read up about some AO and shaders, because I have no idea how to use them. I only know how to work around textures and I’m used to Maya and 3ds Max

I did an AO tutorial at RDNA.  It’s aimed at using the AO Manager script for Poser, but the main points about surface shaders vs. AO lights and Max Distance/Bias are universal across both platforms.

And, incidentally, I’m jealous—wish I mostly rendered with Max and Maya!  I have Max (free!) though volunteer work I do for high school robotics teams, but barely have scratched the surface of it. Maya is WAY outside my budget, lol.

 Signature 

One in 150 children is diagnosed with autism. One is mine.

My deviantArt Gallery: http://karibous-boutique.deviantart.com/
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4524
Joined  2007-09-13

I rendered this with the scripted Point Cloud Occlusion in DS4.5, it took 28 minutes, as opposed to the UE render I did last night that took a bit over 2 hrs.

Yeah, things aren’t ‘perfect’, but for a first attempt at using that feature (yeah there’s some stuff with cowl and cape that needs to be cleaned up..) I think it came out well.  Need to play around with that example a lot more, if there is that kind of reduction in time.

Image Attachments
batman4.jpg
 Signature 

1432 old posts

My ShareCG gallery.

Just because something costs a lot, doesn’t mean it’s the best…

It just means it’s expensive.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  719
Joined  2008-05-05
mjc1016 - 06 November 2012 04:47 PM

I rendered this with the scripted Point Cloud Occlusion in DS4.5, it took 28 minutes, as opposed to the UE render I did last night that took a bit over 2 hrs.

Oooh! Thank you! I did not know such a thing existed!  I’m clearly uninformed about updates, lol.  Now I have to go play with that…

 Signature 

One in 150 children is diagnosed with autism. One is mine.

My deviantArt Gallery: http://karibous-boutique.deviantart.com/
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
Member
Rank
Total Posts:  45
Joined  2012-04-10

And, incidentally, I’m jealous—wish I mostly rendered with Max and Maya!  I have Max (free!) though volunteer work I do for high school robotics teams, but barely have scratched the surface of it. Maya is WAY outside my budget, lol.

They are both pretty amazing, once you understand how to use it haha, but you can always attempt to learn Blender, its free and runs really fast compared to maya. But it’s one Hell of a learning curve, even using Maya for a long time.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  719
Joined  2008-05-05
2getit - 06 November 2012 07:06 PM

They are both pretty amazing, once you understand how to use it haha, but you can always attempt to learn Blender, its free and runs really fast compared to maya. But it’s one Hell of a learning curve, even using Maya for a long time.

Attempt is the correct word for what I did with Blender, lol!  User interface is beyond me.  But I’ve seen what it can do… I’m just not patient enough!

And I’m finally able to post my two benchmark renders and times. The two renders are not COMPLETELY identical (and they’re both too shiny!) but they’re close enough. I tried to match the “bells and whistles” levels as best as I could. If the forums post the images in the order they’re attached, then the Poser image is on top, and the DS on the bottom.  My intention is to render this with the standalone, free (2 core) version of 3Delight, but I haven’t gotten that far yet.

Computer Specs:
Intel CORE i7 920 (2.67 GHz)
12 GB RAM
NVIDIA GeForce GTX260
Win7 x64
Image Resolution:  1200 x 900

Poser Pro 2012 (x64)
• V4 with SSS
• All Poser mats
• 1 HDRI Light
• 1 Specular Spot
• 1 Spot with depth-mapped shadows
Render Settings:
• Raytracing, shadows, SSS, smooth polys, and displacement on
• 1 Raytrace bounce
• 100% Irradiance Caching
• Pixel Samples = 10
• Min Shading Rate = 0.8
TIME: 3:32

DAZ Studio 4.5 (x64) with Native 3Delight
• V4 with HSS
• All DS mats except hair and earrings
• Uberenvironment with 65% occlusion, 128 occlusion samples
• 1 Specular Spot
• 1 Spot with deep shadow map
Render Settings:
• X and Y pixel samples = 10
• 1 Raytrace bounce
• 100% Irradiance Caching
• Pixel Samples = 10
• Shading = 0.08
TIME: 6:04

Image Attachments
PoserPortrait.pngGoodDSPortrait.png
 Signature 

One in 150 children is diagnosed with autism. One is mine.

My deviantArt Gallery: http://karibous-boutique.deviantart.com/
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 09:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  2303
Joined  2010-12-18

those are actually very close in look, Very impressive. Sure there are differences but I couldn’t pull that close of a look in two different engines at all.

The time for daz fairly slow compared to Poser for certain.  Sorry for being stupid here but are those minutes or hours?

 Signature 

My deviantArt Pinup Gallery

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 09:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  1874
Joined  2006-02-17
KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 08:58 PM
2getit - 06 November 2012 07:06 PM

They are both pretty amazing, once you understand how to use it haha, but you can always attempt to learn Blender, its free and runs really fast compared to maya. But it’s one Hell of a learning curve, even using Maya for a long time.

Attempt is the correct word for what I did with Blender, lol!  User interface is beyond me.  But I’ve seen what it can do… I’m just not patient enough!

And I’m finally able to post my two benchmark renders and times. The two renders are not COMPLETELY identical (and they’re both too shiny!) but they’re close enough. I tried to match the “bells and whistles” levels as best as I could. If the forums post the images in the order they’re attached, then the Poser image is on top, and the DS on the bottom.  My intention is to render this with the standalone, free (2 core) version of 3Delight, but I haven’t gotten that far yet.

Computer Specs:
Intel CORE i7 920 (2.67 GHz)
12 GB RAM
NVIDIA GeForce GTX260
Win7 x64
Image Resolution:  1200 x 900

Poser Pro 2012 (x64)
• V4 with SSS
• All Poser mats
• 1 HDRI Light
• 1 Specular Spot
• 1 Spot with depth-mapped shadows
Render Settings:
• Raytracing, shadows, SSS, smooth polys, and displacement on
• 1 Raytrace bounce
• 100% Irradiance Caching
• Pixel Samples = 10
• Min Shading Rate = 0.8
TIME: 3:32

DAZ Studio 4.5 (x64) with Native 3Delight
• V4 with HSS
• All DS mats except hair and earrings
• Uberenvironment with 65% occlusion, 128 occlusion samples
• 1 Specular Spot
• 1 Spot with deep shadow map
Render Settings:
• X and Y pixel samples = 10
• 1 Raytrace bounce
• 100% Irradiance Caching
• Pixel Samples = 10
• Shading = 0.08
TIME: 6:04

In studio, from the surfaces tab set “Raytrace” to Off for the Hair.  That will speed the rendering greatly.  EDIT2:  If the Raytrace: Off option isn’t available, then you’ll want to apply the HSS to the hair, and then turn the raytracing off.

EDIT: Also, in the new 3DL you may find that using full raytracing to be faster than Shadow Maps in some cases.

Kendall

 Signature 

Any opinions expressed in this post are those of Kendall Sears and may, or may not, be more, or less, valid than any other opinion.

The contents of this post are intended for the DAZ forum only, do not re-post any portion to any other forum without his permission.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 11:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  719
Joined  2008-05-05
larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 09:20 PM

those are actually very close in look, Very impressive. Sure there are differences but I couldn’t pull that close of a look in two different engines at all.

The time for daz fairly slow compared to Poser for certain.  Sorry for being stupid here but are those minutes or hours?

Minutes. smile  It was a test render, so I wanted it to render quickly.  My normal render resolutions are usually at least 2000 x 2000 or so.  That’s why time is so important to me.  A 3 minute difference in a small, simple scene equals a HUGE difference in a large, complex scene.

Oh, and I even used the same map for the HDRI light in Poser and the Uberenvironment color map, to try to keep the lighting very close.  That was the most challenging part of this for me—lighting the scenes so they were using the same types of lights, but with the same look.  UE and Poser handle the same image very differently, so intensity adjustments are required.

Kendall Sears - 06 November 2012 09:23 PM

In studio, from the surfaces tab set “Raytrace” to Off for the Hair.  That will speed the rendering greatly.  EDIT2:  If the Raytrace: Off option isn’t available, then you’ll want to apply the HSS to the hair, and then turn the raytracing off.

EDIT: Also, in the new 3DL you may find that using full raytracing to be faster than Shadow Maps in some cases.

Kendall

Turning Raytracing off for the hair means that if I’m using raytraced shadows or reflections, the hair isn’t there.  I could make the hair invisible to raytracing in Poser, too, which would also speed up its render time in exactly the same way.  For the purpose of a render comparison, I wanted to keep the options as similar as possible.  If I was creating a scene in Poser, I would not turn raytracing off for the hair, so I needed to keep it on in DS, regardless of whether it speeds up render times. I also could have turned SSS off in Poser, which would have knocked a minute off of the render, but that didn’t seem fair if I used the HSS shaders in DS.  Just wanted to keep things equal, as much as possible.

And I still really need to look more into the new 3DL. Sounds very promising! Wish I had more time to experiment.  *sigh!*

 Signature 

One in 150 children is diagnosed with autism. One is mine.

My deviantArt Gallery: http://karibous-boutique.deviantart.com/
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2012 11:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]
Power Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  2303
Joined  2010-12-18

Ok good to know smile Based on your 24 hour render I wasn’t sure wink

 Signature 

My deviantArt Pinup Gallery

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 November 2012 12:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]
Active Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  719
Joined  2008-05-05

Lord, you should have seen how many test renders I did to try to achieve identical renders… If they’d been 6 hours and 3 hours each, I’d have been 80 before the benchmarks were done!  smile

 Signature 

One in 150 children is diagnosed with autism. One is mine.

My deviantArt Gallery: http://karibous-boutique.deviantart.com/
Proud Member of the Bald Wizards Club

Profile
 
 
Posted: 07 November 2012 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]
Addict
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3049
Joined  2004-04-14
KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 03:49 PM

I wish I knew more about DS lighting.  I’ll admit, it confuses me.


Bookmark this - http://digilander.libero.it/maclean/DStutorial.htm - and take your time going over it.  All screen shots are DS1 but the information is still relevant.


When it comes to rendering in DS, everyone has their way of doing things and there are many factors to consider that effect render times.  One thing that may not be very obvious is how certain options in a light set or surface shader overlap with the advanced render settings.  Since 3Delight is a renderman compliant shader, it is very easy to find informaion online about the different features.

 Signature 

My DAZ3D Store
My Free Stuff
My Art @ DeviantART
Ships of the Line - MEGA THREAD
How to use the Poser Format Exporter - **Updated 2013-02-09**

Profile
 
 
   
5 of 6
5