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Better Renderer?
Posted: 06 November 2012 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]
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larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 10:55 AM

Well I don’t think you need to know everything about the render engines to get a good output.

Of course not, you buy the light preset, the shader preset and even the camera preset and you have the instant render.

larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 10:55 AM

You don’t need to even master the subset of features you use.

So how do you know what to do when your scene is made for a sunny day but you want to use it for a rain scene? Pavements does not look the same when dry or wet. That is only one subset.

larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 10:55 AM

Nothing wrong with going that route if you like, but it doesn’t need to take years to get good(i suppose that also depends on the person).

Some people learn faster than other, no doubt, but you still have to learn how to use your tool. Be it months or years, you still have to sweat at least a bit.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]
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mjc1016 - 06 November 2012 11:04 AM
Akhbour - 06 November 2012 10:49 AM

How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

I can answer that one…

How long is eternity?

Because, as long as render engine is still being developed there are going to be new things to learn.

And even if they stopped development today, what would be your guess?

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Posted: 06 November 2012 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]
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Akhbour - 06 November 2012 11:20 AM
mjc1016 - 06 November 2012 11:04 AM
Akhbour - 06 November 2012 10:49 AM

How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

I can answer that one…

How long is eternity?

Because, as long as render engine is still being developed there are going to be new things to learn.

And even if they stopped development today, what would be your guess?

About two weeks less than that…

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Posted: 06 November 2012 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]
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So you are a programmer! ^_-

I have to work harder than that to even understand what is written in the manual!:)

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Posted: 06 November 2012 11:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]
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larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 09:21 AM

Speed isn’t an issue for me with Daz studio but I turn off raytracing hair and transparencies. Not a problem for me but I know some people can’t live without.

I’d be one of those people.  I prefer AO effects on hair, and if you are using raytraced shadows or reflections… well, they’re bald if RT is off!  lol. You are right, of course, that there is always a trade-off between time and render bells-and-whistles. I guess I meant that Poser renders the bells-and-whistles faster. ‘Cause, apparently, I’m a bells-and-whistles kind of gal.  :D

Akhbour - 06 November 2012 10:49 AM

How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

Point taken—mastery only comes with time and practice.  But, I suppose that’s the point.  I prefer to master the skills I already have a good grasp of, rather than forging into foreign (and sometimes frustrating) territory. Some of us just don’t have a lot of time, and a long learning curve is a real hurdle for me.  I think my goals are best met by improvement through baby steps that don’t require months of practice that I don’t have.

When I said that my choice of render engines came down to time, I meant that I found the best balance of time and quality (for me) is Poser.  I could often get better quality with Lux or Vue or even Carrara, but the time isn’t worth it to me.  Besides, It took a lot of time to learn these platforms, even in a rudimentary way. If I want to achieve mastery, I will pick one and focus on it.

How long does it take a single mother to raise twins, one of whom is autistic?  Lol!  Answer: far too much to leave many hours for hobbies!!  raspberry

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]
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Akhbour - 06 November 2012 11:08 AM
larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 10:55 AM

You don’t need to even master the subset of features you use.

So how do you know what to do when your scene is made for a sunny day but you want to use it for a rain scene? Pavements does not look the same when dry or wet. That is only one subset.

I was debating if people would understand what I meant by “master”. They say it takes something like 10,000 hours to master something, but well before then you have other stages of good and very good that should be enough to satisfy and even impress.

You should definitely become familiar with what you use, but mastering it isn’t a requirement to reach a satisfying level.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]
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KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 11:57 AM
larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 09:21 AM

Speed isn’t an issue for me with Daz studio but I turn off raytracing hair and transparencies. Not a problem for me but I know some people can’t live without.

I’d be one of those people.  I prefer AO effects on hair, and if you are using raytraced shadows or reflections… well, they’re bald if RT is off!  lol. You are right, of course, that there is always a trade-off between time and render bells-and-whistles. I guess I meant that Poser renders the bells-and-whistles faster. ‘Cause, apparently, I’m a bells-and-whistles kind of gal.  :D

When I use the external renderers I tend to go with the bells and whistles and deal with the rendering time. Largely because I do not do much post to more realistic stuff.

But with more typical stuff I like to retouch the hair manually and make it more organic and less canned 3D looking so I’ve learned it is a waste for me to render with AO and RT in the hair. I do leave shadow casting on though LOL. I know my system isn’t for everyone but I’m just illustrating there are different ways to approach things.

I completely understand your point about learning too many tools though, I am very cautious not to over extend myself so i tend to spend months brooding over whether I should learn new plugings/software and if I REALLY need to.

Here is an example of some hair I rendered without bells and whistles and I filled it out a bit with painting. Not realistic at all but I enjoy the style.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]
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Akhbour - 06 November 2012 11:48 AM

So you are a programmer! ^_-

I have to work harder than that to even understand what is written in the manual!:)

I haven’t done any programming (except for some simple scripts) in many years.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]
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larsmidnatt thats really nice love the vibrancy of the colours.
Do you render the hair seperately or with the figure or both?

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]
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KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 11:57 AM
Akhbour - 06 November 2012 10:49 AM

How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

Point taken—mastery only comes with time and practice.  But, I suppose that’s the point.  I prefer to master the skills I already have a good grasp of, rather than forging into foreign (and sometimes frustrating) territory. Some of us just don’t have a lot of time, and a long learning curve is a real hurdle for me.  I think my goals are best met by improvement through baby steps that don’t require months of practice that I don’t have.

When I said that my choice of render engines came down to time, I meant that I found the best balance of time and quality (for me) is Poser.  I could often get better quality with Lux or Vue or even Carrara, but the time isn’t worth it to me.  Besides, It took a lot of time to learn these platforms, even in a rudimentary way. If I want to achieve mastery, I will pick one and focus on it.

My point was, what ever you do, there is a minimum of learning involved!
Once you have made up your mind (learning process!) it is up to every person to decide how much and what to learn.

KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 11:57 AM

How long does it take a single mother to raise twins, one of whom is autistic?  Lol!  Answer: far too much to leave many hours for hobbies!!  raspberry

I am sorry to tell you, that this will take your lifetime (if I believe what my mother tells me, and I am past 50!(and according to my own experience with my daughter!)) But to be honest, I do not want it any other way! ^_-

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]
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scorpio64dragon - 06 November 2012 12:29 PM

larsmidnatt thats really nice love the vibrancy of the colours.
Do you render the hair seperately or with the figure or both?

Thanks. I rendered the hair with the figure this time. largely because I don’t like to paint TOO much and didn’t want to have to figure out shadows around the face. so I rendered the character with the hair, then went into photoshop and added some layers and painted on those. Played with curves a bit and generally had a good time smile

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]
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larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 12:00 PM
Akhbour - 06 November 2012 11:08 AM
larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 10:55 AM

You don’t need to even master the subset of features you use.

So how do you know what to do when your scene is made for a sunny day but you want to use it for a rain scene? Pavements does not look the same when dry or wet. That is only one subset.

I was debating if people would understand what I meant by “master”. They say it takes something like 10,000 hours to master something, but well before then you have other stages of good and very good that should be enough to satisfy and even impress.

You should definitely become familiar with what you use, but mastering it isn’t a requirement to reach a satisfying level.

Maybe not 10.000 hours, but at least 50 to know a little bit!

But it certainly is nothing “instant” as some seem to claim.

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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]
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Akhbour - 06 November 2012 12:41 PM

Maybe not 10.000 hours, but at least 50 to know a little bit!

But it certainly is nothing “instant” as some seem to claim.

Completely agree there. I suggest splitting it up into smaller chunks and learning over time. Thats how I absorb most things.

 

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Posted: 06 November 2012 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]
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KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 11:57 AM
larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 09:21 AM

Speed isn’t an issue for me with Daz studio but I turn off raytracing hair and transparencies. Not a problem for me but I know some people can’t live without.

I’d be one of those people.  I prefer AO effects on hair, and if you are using raytraced shadows or reflections… well, they’re bald if RT is off!  lol. You are right, of course, that there is always a trade-off between time and render bells-and-whistles. I guess I meant that Poser renders the bells-and-whistles faster. ‘Cause, apparently, I’m a bells-and-whistles kind of gal.  :D

That’s the thing though…

There are faster ways to do AO in 3Delight, that aren’t readily evident through DS, but are accessible (at least now…point-cloud).  Most of the current AO solutions aren’t really optimized, on top of everything else (start/stop distances make a big difference, same with samples…not everything needs to be done at 128 or even 32). 

 

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Posted: 06 November 2012 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]
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larsmidnatt - 06 November 2012 12:14 PM

Here is an example of some hair I rendered without bells and whistles and I filled it out a bit with painting. Not realistic at all but I enjoy the style.

If I had your talent for painting, I would undoubtedly do the same.  I’m envious of your lovely postwork.  That’s an area where I struggle—my creative vision and my abilities are far apart.  One can practice and improve… but some artistic things really do come down to inborn talent.  Your image is truly lovely!

Akhbour - 06 November 2012 12:38 PM

My point was, what ever you do, there is a minimum of learning involved!
Once you have made up your mind (learning process!) it is up to every person to decide how much and what to learn.


I’m a reformed physics teacher.  You’re preaching to the choir.  smile  If I won the lottery, I would stop doing everything but learning new things.  Knowledge is one amazing thing that no one can take from you.

Akhbour - 06 November 2012 12:38 PM
KaribousBoutique - 06 November 2012 11:57 AM

How long does it take a single mother to raise twins, one of whom is autistic?  Lol!  Answer: far too much to leave many hours for hobbies!!  raspberry

I am sorry to tell you, that this will take your lifetime (if I believe what my mother tells me, and I am past 50!(and according to my own experience with my daughter!)) But to be honest, I do not want it any other way! ^_-

Nope, me neither.  My babies ARE my first and most time-consuming hobby.  One might say that I’m spending my lifetime rendering them. (It certainly felt that way when I was 34 weeks pregnant with an octopus!)

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