Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
Can’t you get AO or SSS with PWSurface or Ubersurface? And ubersurface comes with DS 4 right?
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
Can’t you get AO or SSS with PWSurface or Ubersurface? And ubersurface comes with DS 4 right?
The ‘problem’...UberSurface, UberEnvironment and pwSurface are ‘3rd party’ and not ‘native’ Studio items like the Poser controls for those features are. So, while, yes, the US and UE included in DS3.x and above ‘enable’ those features it still doesn’t mean they are ‘native’. Although I suppose the example ShaderMixer presets that have been included just as long do qualify as native, just how many people actually know about those, let alone use them?
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
Can’t you get AO or SSS with PWSurface or Ubersurface? And ubersurface comes with DS 4 right?
The ‘problem’...UberSurface, UberEnvironment and pwSurface are ‘3rd party’ and not ‘native’ Studio items like the Poser controls for those features are. So, while, yes, the US and UE included in DS3.x and above ‘enable’ those features it still doesn’t mean they are ‘native’. Although I suppose the example ShaderMixer presets that have been included just as long do qualify as native, just how many people actually know about those, let alone use them?
I’m not sure what you mean by native here - those are shaders, included with DS. So are the non-uber lights and the Default DAZ Shader, so I would have said they were equally native - they are now DAZ-owned, as far as I know, so it isn’t as if they can be whisked out by the creators.
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
Can’t you get AO or SSS with PWSurface or Ubersurface? And ubersurface comes with DS 4 right?
The ‘problem’...UberSurface, UberEnvironment and pwSurface are ‘3rd party’ and not ‘native’ Studio items like the Poser controls for those features are. So, while, yes, the US and UE included in DS3.x and above ‘enable’ those features it still doesn’t mean they are ‘native’. Although I suppose the example ShaderMixer presets that have been included just as long do qualify as native, just how many people actually know about those, let alone use them?
I’m not sure what you mean by native here - those are shaders, included with DS. So are the non-uber lights and the Default DAZ Shader, so I would have said they were equally native - they are now DAZ-owned, as far as I know, so it isn’t as if they can be whisked out by the creators.
The Uber stuff is now DAZ owned? I thought just the pw stuff was…
But, it was that the features, while exposed in things generated in ShaderMixer could be called ‘native’, just like the Poser controls for those options, Uber items were 3rd party and don’t quite qualify…yeah, it’s just semantics, but trying to convince the ‘other side’ that DS has had these features, natively, for a long time is like beating one’s head against a block wall. They weren’t surrounded by flashing lights and arrows saying “I’m a SSS shader!!!!”, so the assumption was, the feature wasn’t there in DS. 3Delight has had SSS, AO and all the rest for a very long time…so technically has DS.
But back to the OP’s original question…
As far as renderer’s go…just how many major motion pictures (or minor, independent ones, for that matter) use Firefly? How many use 3Delight (out of the two most common Renderman implementations, 3Delight and Prman, it’s a toss up as to which one is used more in production work)? How many use others?
Each and every one has its strong points and its weaknesses…
EDIT: Sorry about the previous post… someone used my terminal and forgot to log herself out….
mjc1016 - 05 November 2012 04:49 PM
Richard Haseltine - 05 November 2012 04:10 PM
mjc1016 - 05 November 2012 04:00 PM
larsmidnatt - 05 November 2012 02:58 PM
mjc1016 - 05 November 2012 02:56 PM
KaribousBoutique - 05 November 2012 01:56 PM
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
Can’t you get AO or SSS with PWSurface or Ubersurface? And ubersurface comes with DS 4 right?
The ‘problem’...UberSurface, UberEnvironment and pwSurface are ‘3rd party’ and not ‘native’ Studio items like the Poser controls for those features are. So, while, yes, the US and UE included in DS3.x and above ‘enable’ those features it still doesn’t mean they are ‘native’. Although I suppose the example ShaderMixer presets that have been included just as long do qualify as native, just how many people actually know about those, let alone use them?
I’m not sure what you mean by native here - those are shaders, included with DS. So are the non-uber lights and the Default DAZ Shader, so I would have said they were equally native - they are now DAZ-owned, as far as I know, so it isn’t as if they can be whisked out by the creators.
The Uber stuff is now DAZ owned? I thought just the pw stuff was…
Wow, I take a day off to help a friend and look what I miss…
It doesn’t matter who owns what. If it ships with the product, by definition it is native. Since UberSurface and UberEnvironment have both been included since DS3A’s release, they are no more 3rd party than the Shader Mixer or any other piece.
But, it was that the features, while exposed in things generated in ShaderMixer could be called ‘native’, just like the Poser controls for those options, Uber items were 3rd party and don’t quite qualify…yeah, it’s just semantics, but trying to convince the ‘other side’ that DS has had these features, natively, for a long time is like beating one’s head against a block wall. They weren’t surrounded by flashing lights and arrows saying “I’m a SSS shader!!!!”, so the assumption was, the feature wasn’t there in DS. 3Delight has had SSS, AO and all the rest for a very long time…so technically has DS.
Yes, DS has had a lot of capabilities through 3Delight for a very long time. DAZ overestimates the abilities, and motivation, of the user base.
But back to the OP’s original question…
As far as renderer’s go…just how many major motion pictures (or minor, independent ones, for that matter) use Firefly? How many use 3Delight (out of the two most common Renderman implementations, 3Delight and Prman, it’s a toss up as to which one is used more in production work)? How many use others?
As firefly doesn’t exist outside of Poser anymore, there’s NO PROFESSIONAL ANYTHING being done with firefly. It’s just the nature of the beast. With that being said 3Delight != DazStudio, although it could be argued that DS is just the UI for 3DL. Most of the 3DL work being done comes from Maya, SoftImage, or other high end software capable of working in standard RIB. I’d love to hear of instances where DS work was directly used in the industry.
I do know of instances where DAZ content was used, but I cannot verify the use of DS. I’ve heard rumors of Carrara being used for prototyping but, again, I’ve not been able to verify that.
EDIT: On the “others”: there are many boutique pieces of software being used in the in the industry, more than most realize. It is true that Renderman (represented primarily by PRRenderman and 3Delight) is still the most dominant rendering engine, but this is mostly due to the amount of experience that can be leveraged.
Each and every one has its strong points and its weaknesses…
This is true of all software. Use the tools for the job and let the work speak for itself. The ultimate test of a 3D software’s prowess is when it can add SFX into live action scenes and one cannot tell that it has been done. In other words, your best work is the work that no one notices. grin
Also, it’s very possible to get AO on surfaces in DS using Shader Mixer. I stole a bit from some forum posts and wrote a tutorial on it. The tutorial was done in DS3A, but shader mixer is pretty much the same in DS4/4.5, so it would still work. Tutorial Here. I think Shader Mixer has a LOT of potential… if only there were DOCUMENTATION. Ack.
Kendall Sears - 05 November 2012 07:11 PM
It doesn’t matter who owns what. If it ships with the product, by definition it is native. Since UberSurface and UberEnvironment have both been included since DS3A’s release, they are no more 3rd party than the Shader Mixer or any other piece.
Agreed. I think it’s more a historical reflection. If I implied otherwise, it’s because I don’t keep much track of what ships with the product!
mjc1016 - 05 November 2012 04:49 PM
But, it was that the features, while exposed in things generated in ShaderMixer could be called ‘native’, just like the Poser controls for those options, Uber items were 3rd party and don’t quite qualify…yeah, it’s just semantics, but trying to convince the ‘other side’ that DS has had these features, natively, for a long time is like beating one’s head against a block wall. They weren’t surrounded by flashing lights and arrows saying “I’m a SSS shader!!!!”, so the assumption was, the feature wasn’t there in DS. 3Delight has had SSS, AO and all the rest for a very long time…so technically has DS.
Tsk, Tsk. For some of us, there is no other side. And, I agree with everything you’ve said… but it kind of sounds like you’re implying that the flashing lights and arrows were… a bad thing? Because they only point out in Poser what DS already had? Seems to me that Smith Micro was just better at marketing these things. And why shouldn’t it? I feel like Poser is the more solid software platform—few service packs, full documentation, MANY fewer bugs—but DS has the interface and content integration and access (Genesis) nailed. Which is why Smith Micro screams, “SSS! AO!!” and DAZ screams, “GENESIS!” They market what they’re best at. And if you’re willing to fork over the money for Poser, you can have both, so the “which one is better?” question always seemed dumb to me. Like, when I go to the store and try to decide which pair of shoes I want to buy… if I can buy both, that seems like the best plan!
Kendall Sears - 05 November 2012 07:11 PM
As far as renderer’s go…just how many major motion pictures (or minor, independent ones, for that matter) use Firefly? How many use 3Delight (out of the two most common Renderman implementations, 3Delight and Prman, it’s a toss up as to which one is used more in production work)? How many use others?
As firefly doesn’t exist outside of Poser anymore, there’s NO PROFESSIONAL ANYTHING being done with firefly. It’s just the nature of the beast. With that being said 3Delight != DazStudio, although it could be argued that DS is just the UI for 3DL. Most of the 3DL work being done comes from Maya, SoftImage, or other high end software capable of working in standard RIB. I’d love to hear of instances where DS work was directly used in the industry.
I agree with Kendall. Is using a professional render engine really the point? And, okay maybe I’m wrong, but are there really many of us (DS/Poser users) who are, um, rendering professionals? I know there are many people who earn good money making CONTENT, but most of the people in this forum are not likely to be using any of the programs listed for serious, professional images/animation. The low cost and ease of use (little training required to get started) is the reason so many hobbyists and dabblers begin with these platforms. I’m not a snob about my software. I use what fits the bill. I try to keep the learning curves to a minimum. And I honestly don’t expect to turn out Pixar-quality work. The high-end render engines are cool, but as larsmidnatt pointed out, sometimes realism isn’t what you’re after.
And, yes, back to the OP’s question… Which one’s better?
Both!
But maybe I just think so because I’m a mom of twins. :D
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze). Cons: Interface is… challenging, at least at first. Some components are fairly useless—Face room, hair room, etc. Poser “people” (Alyson, etc.) lack the support and quality of DAZ figures.
And I find DAZ’s interface more challenging. That’s why no one can actually answer the question, because both can do stunning things. It’s just a matter of personal preference.
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
And, unfortunately, the documentation isn’t either. It is so sad to me that one of the biggest cons regarding DAZ (i.e. lack of documentation) seems like the easiest fix of all.
Poser - Pros: Firefly is much faster than Daz’s 3Delight, includes native IDL, more documentation for advanced material settings (node-based) including SSS and AO. Includes native support for volumetric atmosheres (haze).
That isn’t to say that DS (3Delight) DOESN’T support those features…because it does. The problem is, without 3rd party ‘add ons’, exposing them in the ‘native’ shader setup means delving deeply into ShaderMixer/Shader Builder. In other words…Poser has them ‘exposed’ while DS has them hidden. The support is there…the UI isn’t.
And, unfortunately, the documentation isn’t either. It is so sad to me that one of the biggest cons regarding DAZ (i.e. lack of documentation) seems like the easiest fix of all.
RenderMan (RiSpec), as used in 3Delight, is very well documented. Some very good documentation can even be had for free. Some other docs are not so free.
As was said previously, it is all marketing. SM TRUMPETED that they *now* had SSS in Poser, and the Poser masses swooned. Many of the uninformed even went on to claim that Poser was now even further ahead of DS because DS didn’t have SSS. Why did they have that misconception?
Because DAZ didn’t market that DS had those features. But think about it. DS has spent the majority of it’s existence as a free program. There was no direct monetary gain to be made by spending resources to trumpet features of a free program.
There’s nothing stopping the community from getting together to crowd-source a set of documentation. DAZ has even facilitated this with the Wiki. Yet folks would rather complain about lack of documentation than to try to write up some text to help move that goal along.
