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Carrara 8.5 pro upgrade ?
Posted: 08 November 2012 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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3DAGE - 08 November 2012 06:05 AM

...but, if people see the beta as a “free play” version, or an “upgrade to C8” and aren’t reporting issues, then,.. you get what you give.

I really wish we could get away from this attitude that the users are somehow obligated to DAZ, or ultimately responsible for the quality of the software. We aren’t. The beta is provided to us, and I quote:

“The purpose of providing this build is for you to see the progress we are making, see how Genesis looks in Carrara, see the new features we’ve added and provide input on the changes”

They ASK us to perform a service for them, and that is to report their errors. They pay us nothing. To imply that “you get what you give” is, IMO, ludicrous. THEY are responsible for the quality of their product. WE are not.

None of us ever agreed to spend whatever time it takes us to investigate and report every error we encounter. And none of us agreed to go out of our way to test as many features and functions to the best of our ability in an effort to find every possible error. We do what we can, and what we feel like doing. To imply that users are to blame if the final release is of poor quality because they didn’t work hard enough to report bugs is just ridiculous.

We are talking about THEIR errors. We wouldn’t need bug testing if there were no bugs. And that’s one reason why development takes so long, because they made errors during development. And that’s why users get frustrated and impatient.

But clearly you believe that the users are responsible for identifying errors, not the folks who made the errors. Hard to believe.

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Posted: 08 November 2012 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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    Joe            

                I do not think Andy believes user are responsible as like it was their product or job per se but he is pointing out the there does not have to have been a public beta at all and do not consider it as a free version for a period of time etc but an opportunity to see what is going on or not. To see what’s new .......and yes to uncover bugs and report them.

                No one is asking anyone to do anything.(  I think Andy is actually answering you before you even made a comment. ) My take is—-he is just saying if you want to join in and help find bugs cool….if not—-  the realities of Carrara DAZ development as we know are limited and so if you don’t report something you see…...it has no chance of getting fixed and by not helping in that fashion less bugs might be uncovered —-so you in that way—you get what you give.

                In theory—-you are correct with who has the ultimate responsibility to produce as bug free a product as possible that being— DAZ. However—the realities as we have them——Daz needs help from users to uncover and report bugs in the public beta period. Is it right? Not really . But it is what it is—-and if you want to get as best a Carrara that can be———Daz has made this a open beta for anyone who wants to help ....to help. The more who help the better the version will be .

                So if DAZ was like Autodesk charging 3k for a software license I would have to agree wholeheartly with you but that just not the realities here. So as I see , use the Beta .....have fun and reports any bugs you can ....in the end that’s going to give us a better product and what I think Daz is trying to do with the public Beta.

                And I for one want to thank any of the Beta users who have been reporting bugs. As that’s maybe one less bug we get to have.

             

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Favorite items   Cararra   - Modo -    Animation Master-    Houdini

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Posted: 08 November 2012 08:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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3dview, there are those who complain when it doesn’t make sense to complain, and those who never complain, even when they should. I think either approach is detrimental to customers and the company.

If you have, as some here do, impossible and impractical expectations that can never be met, and then complain when the company doesn’t meet them, that is, IMO, of no use. Likewise, if you don’t complain, even when entirely rational expectations aren’t met, that is also, IMO, detrimental.

I like to maintain rational expectations, that a rational, typical consumer might have, and complain when the company fails to meet them. That is (hopefully) beneficial, because it notifies the company that a typical, rational consumer is not pleased, and if the company is interested in keeping customers they should at least consider the complaint. I know how companies operate, I have a decent understanding of what DAZ is faced with, and I maintain expectations in line with that understanding. And I give them a LOT of leeway.

But expecting customers to spend their time testing software for bugs for over a year is, to any normal person, way beyond rational expectations. Sure, in this world, unfortunately, bug testing of software is a common practice that you have to put up with. It’s not right, no other industry has it, but with software it is what it is. No question. And beta testing for a few months is fine, and fairly typical.

A year is not. And when people say, after a year of beta testing, “oh, be patient, and don’t complain, and if you don’t report bugs don’t expect a quality product”, that does nobody any good. 

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Posted: 09 November 2012 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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I’ve been beta testing practically as long as I have been online. I started with winzip and have done public and private beta testing for several companies. Years ago when apps came on disks they had to be working right on release because there was no real updates to bugs later. But in this day and age most companies have this “release it now fix it later” attitude. Now a days it seems “beta” is just an excuse not to fix bugs; or at least not fix them in a timely manor. Look at all the “beta” forums online and you will see what I mean.

Years a go when a game expansion was released it was expected to work mostly bug free. I recently saw an expansion released for a top 5 game that was not only a month late{not a bigy} but was only half finished{missing skirmishes and instances} and so buggy a large segment of players couldn’t get the game to load after the update to the game that added the expansion.

So now we have this “public beta” thing. Most companies do it, let application users that will most likely buy the next build of the app to be beta testers. Why? To elevate the company from the responsibility of beta testing.  It is now the end users responsibility to beta test the app and turn in bug reports. If an app has a public beta test and is released with bugs the company can easily lay it off on the users for not taking part in the public beta test or filing bug reports.

My question is when did it become the end users responsibility to assure a company releases an app that is reasonably bug free?

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Posted: 09 November 2012 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Hi Joe smile

I agree that the provider of a product has a moral obligation, to provide it’s customers with a product which is “Fit for Purpose”. (as I’ve already stated)

Nobody would deny that it’s in the interest of both the customers, and the producers to ensure that a product is stable before it’s released into the marketplace. whether it’s computer software, or a washing machine, or a pizza.

It’s in their interest,.. but it doesn’t always happen.

sometimes market forces, such as having a group of customers asking when it will be released,.. can effect the decision of the manufacturers to release a product,.. before it’s ready.

As for beta testing,. Again,.. this is a VOLUNTARY process, which you personally can CHOOSE to be involved in,.

If an individual chooses to test the product, they are ASKED to report any issues they find,.
the purpose of this is clearly to help find errors

the alternative to this is to have the “Developers”, using the software for hours, or days, testing all the possible menu options and features of the software in a logical, methodical way..

This means that if they’re using the software,. they’re not actively developing it,, they’re looking for issues.
Also consider that the Code writers may be excellent programmers, but may not be experienced users of the software they’re working on.

Experienced users, will usually see issues quickly. and while those experienced users are finding issues, the programmers can be developing the program.

For the Company,. the Developers, and the customers,. this process makes sense.

The company can eventually release a product which has been tested and works.
the developers can spend time developing,
the customers should end up with a better product because they’ve been actively involved in testing it at different stages of development, and have assisted in tracking down issues. so that developers can fix those issues.

It’s also worth noting that users can add “Feature requests” in the Bug tracker, as well as reporting bugs.
so, they have the ability to influence the addition of new features into the development process.

to say that “No other industry” involves a small group of consumers in a testing process before a product is released to the public is,.. Ludicrous.

Have you never been asked to try a new food item while out shopping, or to take part in a consumer survey. ?

All hardware,. whether it’s a washing machine, a toaster, or a car, goes through the testing processes which involves experienced users. who know what to expect from the product.

if you have a washing machine which develops a fault, you’d contact the manufacturer, or their service agent, and they’ll either send out a technician to repair or replace a component, or offer a direct swap, sometimes for a slightly different model number.

the technician reports the fault, ....the manufacturer examines the component , perhaps changing the design, and the next version of the washing machine rolls out of the factory. (improved)

product testing happens all the time. in all industries. although you may not be aware of it.

You’re right that the testing process in C8.5 has taken longer than C8,. and there are probably some good reasons for the length of that process.

I’m not claiming that the users are directly responsible for the product development,. that’s a ridiculous observation.
as i’ve already mentioned twice , the company has the obligation ensure that a product is “fit ft purpose”
BUT,. by involving experienced users in a testing process, makes that development process easier, and faster.

Sometimes there are issues which prevent the developer from releasing a new Beta version for testing,.
sometimes that decision is for the benefit of the users testing the product.

but anyone who is taking the time to test the functionality of the beta, and is finding repeatable faults,. but is not reporting those faults either for the reason that ...“it’s Not my problem”, or ,....those coders shouldn’t have written such bad code in the first place,.

That approach does nobody any good,  neither the customer, nor the developers benefits from that.


These forum pages could be looked upon as being a “FREE” source of educational material, and technical support.
Nobody here is forcing the community of experienced users to spend time helping others.
nobody is demanding that you provide new users with your expert advice.

but it helps the users,. and it helps the company.  and indirectly, it helps to grow the community of users, and develop better software for the users.

Nobody is being forced to beta test the products here,. whether that;‘s Bryce, Hexagon, Daz Studio, or Carrara.
It’s a Voluntary agreement,. you enter into it willingly by choice,. and as part of that testing process you agree to report any issue you find.

If you don’t want to report any faults because you’re not being paid for it,. then that’s simple,.. don’t get involved,.. don’t download the beta version, don’t report bugs.

it’s your choice.

smile

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Posted: 09 November 2012 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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Okay, Andy. I’m not going to press you any further. Partly because I can’t figure out what point you’re trying to make. As usual, you write a lot of unrelated stuff that has nothing to do with what we’re discussing, and I just can’t figure it out.

If you honestly believe that Toyota gives all of its customers the opportunity to try out different, and knowingly buggy versions of their new cars over a period of years, asking the customers to provide unpaid input, then I guess we’ll never agree on basic principles.

That’s not how it works. Just read up on automobile manufacturers’ (or any other manufacturers) quality control procedures and you’ll quickly see that they have some extremely well defined and rigorous in-house procedures for testing, using paid employees and contractors. All to make sure their products hit the market with few, if any defects.

And if you’re going to compare getting asked to sample cookies at the mall with doing software bug testing for a year, then we just have a complete difference in logic.

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Posted: 09 November 2012 12:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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HI joe smile

ok,,.. to keep it really simple,.

testing is good for product development.

not testing is not good for product development.


If you want to get involved in that process,.. you can.

if you don’t want to get involved,. don’t.


Your argument to that seems to be either,..
Someone should pay you for your time,
or,
The development process has taken long enough, and the product should now be released.


Neither of those positions seem valid to me, but that’s just my opinion, ..perhaps I’m missing your point.


I used the examples of the testing processes of other products because you made the statement .

bug testing of software is a common practice that you have to put up with. It’s not right, no other industry has it,

but to take those examples of how that statement is incorrect, as the suggestion that manufacturers are deliberately putting people at risk,.. over a number of years,..  is completely off the planet.

And if you’re going to compare getting asked to sample cookies at the mall with doing software bug testing for a year, then we just have a complete difference in logic.

If you are being asked to voluntarily participate in trying something new,. whether that’s software or cookies makes no difference.
and it’s part of the manufacturers process of “testing” the product in the market.

These processes are the same, although the products, and methods of testing, are different. and they were provided as an example of how other products are tested on a small scale before the public release.

 

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Posted: 09 November 2012 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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HI Stan wink

let application users that will most likely buy the next build of the app to be beta testers. Why?

because the application user Know the software, and how it should work, and can spot issues or problems where something doesn’t work correctly or is behaving unexpectedly.

It’s not avoiding any responsibility by the company,.
it’s actively involving it’s customers in what would otherwise be a CLOSED development process,.. and it’s enabling customers / users to provide input in the process.

Nobody can blame the users for a badly made product., the users / customers, are not the manufacturers / retailers.

The Manufacturer decides when a product is ready for a final public release (for sale),.
The customers / users are not involved in that decision, and therefore have No responsibility to anyone for the final product.

when did it become the end users responsibility to assure a company releases an app that is reasonably bug free?

It never has been, and it never will be.

The company which releases a product, ...is responsible for that product,...

It’s never the customers, or users of that product,. even if they have had some input in the development or testing process.
they are not responsible for any product released by someone else.

wink

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Posted: 10 November 2012 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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ManStan - 09 November 2012 07:17 AM

I’ve been beta testing practically as long as I have been online. I started with winzip and have done public and private beta testing for several companies. Years ago when apps came on disks they had to be working right on release because there was no real updates to bugs later. But in this day and age most companies have this “release it now fix it later” attitude. Now a days it seems “beta” is just an excuse not to fix bugs; or at least not fix them in a timely manor. Look at all the “beta” forums online and you will see what I mean.

Years a go when a game expansion was released it was expected to work mostly bug free. I recently saw an expansion released for a top 5 game that was not only a month late{not a bigy} but was only half finished{missing skirmishes and instances} and so buggy a large segment of players couldn’t get the game to load after the update to the game that added the expansion.

So now we have this “public beta” thing. Most companies do it, let application users that will most likely buy the next build of the app to be beta testers. Why? To elevate the company from the responsibility of beta testing.  It is now the end users responsibility to beta test the app and turn in bug reports. If an app has a public beta test and is released with bugs the company can easily lay it off on the users for not taking part in the public beta test or filing bug reports.

My question is when did it become the end users responsibility to assure a company releases an app that is reasonably bug free?

Years ago, the OS market was very finite and the hardware was finite also. Today, the OS in just windows alone can be vastly diverse. Now add in Hardware and configs from manufacturers and home builders. Windows on Mac, unix vm this and that….. Video cards ranging from 6 years ago to today…

The new avenue of user/open betas is almost a “MUST”.... You will never release a completly bug free application for ALL USERS…

Does anybody have an example of one of these apps today :o

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Posted: 11 November 2012 07:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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See sig wink

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Posted: 11 November 2012 09:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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JoeMamma2000 - 09 November 2012 08:59 AM

Okay, Andy. I’m not going to press you any further. Partly because I can’t figure out what point you’re trying to make. As usual, you write a lot of unrelated stuff that has nothing to do with what we’re discussing, and I just can’t figure it out.

If you honestly believe that Toyota gives all of its customers the opportunity to try out different, and knowingly buggy versions of their new cars over a period of years, asking the customers to provide unpaid input, then I guess we’ll never agree on basic principles.

That’s not how it works. Just read up on automobile manufacturers’ (or any other manufacturers) quality control procedures and you’ll quickly see that they have some extremely well defined and rigorous in-house procedures for testing, using paid employees and contractors. All to make sure their products hit the market with few, if any defects.

And if you’re going to compare getting asked to sample cookies at the mall with doing software bug testing for a year, then we just have a complete difference in logic.

Another point of view: If you want to buy software from a company that has the manpower to exhaustively test internally, like Toyota does, then go to Autodesk and pay as much as a small car. Or you can pay for the developers, but not as many testers, and buy Carrara. If you want to help test Carrara, it will be a better product for your help.

If Microsoft with it’s billions can’t release a bug free product, I don’t expect Daz to. Carrara is not going to cause your car to crash, so I’ll accept a less rigorous test regime. Carrara is much more complex than a car, created by a much smaller team, for what is likely a smaller market.

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Posted: 11 November 2012 10:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Does anyone have a good DEAD HORSE morph to go with this topic? cool cheese

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Posted: 12 November 2012 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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I’m not dead yet. ....but I really don’t feel very well at all.,..  I’ll think I’ll stay in bed today, .. my condition may improoo…....

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Posted: 12 November 2012 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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I don’t expect any app to be bug free, I do expect all features to work relatively well. I do expect bugs to be fixed in a timely manner. I do expect bug reports to be taken seriously. I do expect an app that is in a developmental cycle to actually be in development.
I have given up on these expectations for DAZ.

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Posted: 12 November 2012 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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3DAGE - 12 November 2012 07:10 AM

I’m not dead yet. ....but I really don’t feel very well at all.,..  I’ll think I’ll stay in bed today, .. my condition may improoo…....

LOL

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