I want V4 Products not V5 or V6. Planned Obsolescence Has To Stop.

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  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,959
    edited December 1969

    But just exactly how much of male content out there can we really call "man-slutware".
    Wayyyy too much. It bothers me more than the female stuff, because from what I've generally seen:

    It's nowhere near as ego stroking for guys or hormone enticing for women and homosexual men as much as all the female stuff here does for female idealism and hetero male lust.


    ...this is the case, but for the "slutwear." So much of it looks like just female stuff converted to a male figure because I guess it's edgy or something? It doesn't accentuate the masculine form like the female slutwear accentuates the feminine form. So many sexy female suits out there, so much attention to detail, about nothing like that for the males, when the suit is the quintessential "sexy male" outfit.

    Sorry, there's not that much.

    You know how many pairs of underwear for genesis males are in the store? One, and that's boxers that go with M5. There's no swimwear either.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited July 2013

    It doesn't accentuate the masculine form like the female slutwear accentuates the feminine form.

    Can you give an example or describe what sort of male skimwear outfit could be accentuating male form and how would it do it, aside of the suit? All I can think of is mankini. Oh, and numerous 'armor' sets, like the one in Warrior Outfit or Primordial Fighter.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    It doesn't accentuate the masculine form like the female slutwear accentuates the feminine form.

    Can you give an example or describe what sort of male skimwear outfit could be accentuating male form and how would it do it, aside of the suit? All I can think of is mankini. Oh, and numerous 'armor' sets, like the one in Warrior Outfit or Primordial Fighter.

    That's his point, there isn't. He's making a plea for more form fitting clothing for men.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited December 1969

    Vaskania said:
    Kattey said:
    It doesn't accentuate the masculine form like the female slutwear accentuates the feminine form.

    Can you give an example or describe what sort of male skimwear outfit could be accentuating male form and how would it do it, aside of the suit? All I can think of is mankini. Oh, and numerous 'armor' sets, like the one in Warrior Outfit or Primordial Fighter.

    That's his point, there isn't. He's making a plea for more form fitting clothing for men.

    Yeah, but lets imagine I wish to make one. What principles would such outfit have to be considered a male skimwear and not just a refit of female one?

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    Vaskania said:
    Kattey said:
    It doesn't accentuate the masculine form like the female slutwear accentuates the feminine form.

    Can you give an example or describe what sort of male skimwear outfit could be accentuating male form and how would it do it, aside of the suit? All I can think of is mankini. Oh, and numerous 'armor' sets, like the one in Warrior Outfit or Primordial Fighter.

    That's his point, there isn't. He's making a plea for more form fitting clothing for men.

    Yeah, but lets imagine I wish to make one. What principles would such outfit have to be considered a male skimwear and not just a refit of female one?

    For a male I think you'd have to actually pick a morph, say M5 Hero and sculpt around that, so you can get the definition around the abs and pecs and such.

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited December 1969

    Vaskania said:
    Kattey said:
    Vaskania said:
    Kattey said:
    It doesn't accentuate the masculine form like the female slutwear accentuates the feminine form.

    Can you give an example or describe what sort of male skimwear outfit could be accentuating male form and how would it do it, aside of the suit? All I can think of is mankini. Oh, and numerous 'armor' sets, like the one in Warrior Outfit or Primordial Fighter.

    That's his point, there isn't. He's making a plea for more form fitting clothing for men.

    Yeah, but lets imagine I wish to make one. What principles would such outfit have to be considered a male skimwear and not just a refit of female one?

    For a male I think you'd have to actually pick a morph, say M5 Hero and sculpt around that, so you can get the definition around the abs and pecs and such.


    So male skimwear is clingy and/or made of thin fabric, up to point of showing all muscle definitions?

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited July 2013

    Think spandex. lol

    Post edited by Vaskania on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited December 1969

    Vaskania said:
    Think spandex. lol

    Um, ok, spandex is one type/principle. Any other types/principle of male skimwear? For example, female skimwear often goes with high heels, mini-skirt, high-thigh boots/stocking, bare midriff and generous cleavage showing. What are parallel principles for male skimpwear would be?

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    Vaskania said:
    Think spandex. lol

    Um, ok, spandex is one type/principle. Any other types/principle of male skimwear? For example, female skimwear often goes with high heels, mini-skirt, high-thigh boots/stocking, bare midriff and generous cleavage showing. What are parallel principles for male skimpwear would be?


    It all depends on how skimpy you wanna get. Are we talking fetish zone, or a nice pair of silk boxers.. perhaps some banana hammocks? =P

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited July 2013

    Vaskania said:
    Kattey said:
    Vaskania said:
    Think spandex. lol

    Um, ok, spandex is one type/principle. Any other types/principle of male skimwear? For example, female skimwear often goes with high heels, mini-skirt, high-thigh boots/stocking, bare midriff and generous cleavage showing. What are parallel principles for male skimpwear would be?


    It all depends on how skimpy you wanna get. Are we talking fetish zone, or a nice pair of silk boxers.. perhaps some banana hammocks? =P


    I don't know, this is why I'm asking of what constitutes in the eyes of the people here a true male skimwear. Personally for me a bare chest is mostly way too much already, ancient greenskinned, Shakespearean-talking vampires or mysterious undying undead-looking nameless people nevertheless.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited December 1969

    You could go with an over the shoulder sling thing. LOL
    http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-14248636801162_2222_44192868

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited December 1969

    Vaskania said:
    You could go with an over the shoulder sling thing. LOL
    http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-14248636801162_2222_44192868

    Isn't it mankini?

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited December 1969

    I have no idea what they're called. I'm not a guy and my hubby wouldn't dare wear one unless it was a horrible halloween prank.

  • XP PointblankXP Pointblank Posts: 0
    edited July 2013

    I can say personally, that I've made the hard decision against V4 with my newest character coming. As I do mostly Asian characters, eyes and the resultant morphs/expressions can become problematic fast. Apologies for the fast renders below, but it highlights my biggest issue as a content creator, and that is if corrective morphs are required how much work they are to implement. I took a day of searching, and never came up with a very workable answer as far as the effort that goes into it for Victoria 4. I was just about to scrap the project, but decided on doing Genesis only because those limitations are gone. It only took a few mins after the corrective morphs were sculpted to implement and work only when it needed to and automatically apply. The textures were done already so those stayed, but were heavily modified from the V4 versions to fit Genesis in the right places. After this character, I will probably step away from V4 completely as the limitations of the tech are at this point holding me back more than anything else.

    It was a hard decision to reach, I've supported as wide a group as I possibly can for as long as I can, but the back end of things can burn someone out quick when things need to be hacked and edited multiple times and over multiple files each time. It was bordering on insanity doing V4/Genesis because you need to: Create a custom head morph for V4 and Genesis (usually a morph++ body shape for V4 and then a custom body shape for Genesis), create INJ/REM files for V4 and shape presets for Genesis, textures for V4 then re-adjusting said textures for Genesis (I can't simply re-use the textures as they are off if left alone in my experience), materials for V4 in both Poser and DAZ Studio (Std and SSS), Materials for Genesis in both Poser and DAZ Studio (Std and SSS), then after all that is done, go through and hand edit files where needed. Now if corrective morphs are called for, as in my newest set, the work becomes too much at that point to me to justify, or, I have to raise prices to try and cover the extra time needed. This may hurt sales, or flop entirely.

    Sorry for the long post, but just trying to explain decisions from a content creation standpoint as far as my experience goes. The renders below are of the eye closed, the top is Genesis with the corrected morph and the bottom is V4.

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  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,086
    edited July 2013

    Kattey said:
    Vaskania said:
    Kattey said:
    Vaskania said:
    Think spandex. lol

    Um, ok, spandex is one type/principle. Any other types/principle of male skimwear? For example, female skimwear often goes with high heels, mini-skirt, high-thigh boots/stocking, bare midriff and generous cleavage showing. What are parallel principles for male skimpwear would be?


    It all depends on how skimpy you wanna get. Are we talking fetish zone, or a nice pair of silk boxers.. perhaps some banana hammocks? =P


    I don't know, this is why I'm asking of what constitutes in the eyes of the people here a true male skimwear. Personally for me a bare chest is mostly way too much already, ancient greenskinned, Shakespearean-talking vampires or mysterious undying undead-looking nameless people nevertheless.

    You guys starting to get the idea. Indeed, a big attraction for guys is muscle shirts and activeware. And yes, there are other principals as well. Like I said before, the David 5 Bundle is a good example of hunkware. Men's Night Life shows the principal that brings out the "bare chest" principal more. It's modern, it's seductive and according to PA's it sold well in the D5 Pro Bundle. Hiro 5 actually has some nice items as well. The way Octavis and Night Out Suit are portrayed Here is actually what sold me instantly on the Pro Bundle.

    Also, judging by your usernames, you two are ladies yourselves. Shouldn't you know what you like on a hot guy (assuming you're both hetero, of course)? ; )

    Post edited by RCDeschene on
  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited July 2013

    I do know what I like, but my definition of sexy is much different. For example, my hubby could be Kerry King's brother in both looks and wardrobe (only one tattoo though so far- he's face to face with customers and rarely has time to sit down @ a shop).

    Kerry King:

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  • jaebeajaebea Posts: 287
    edited December 1969

    Although I have not read this whole thread, I'm going to just toss my 2 cents worth in here. I also prefer Gen4 characters. Genesis fails in a couple of areas for me I end up using Genesis as background characters. I find that Gen 4, especially v4, items have pretty much been forsaken here. Only occasionally does something show up. I have to admit, I end up buying at the two other main stores because they are sticking with Gen4 in clothing and characters. I pretty much only buy scenes and props here and a Genesis outfit or two to convert to Gen 4 through PoserPro 2014's fitting room. Sorry Daz, I am hooked on V4!

  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 2,233
    edited July 2013

    Greetings,
    Just skimming the store for a few minutes netted these things that I would call...sexuality-emphasizing male clothing. Now I'll freely admit that most of it is more full-coverage than the equivalent female outfits, but there definitely exists stuff which calls out the male physique...

    Police Officer - This may be controversial, but based on the first promo image and the tight uniform...
    Gossip outfit - This is classic metro, which I feel should count...
    Gymrat - It's for Freak, but it's definitely skimp-r-iffic.
    Goth as Fashion - This has mesh shirts, which is high on the male-skimp-meter, IMO.

    Actually I really think that a good mesh shirt is some of the best male skimp-wear you can get, both defining and barely obscuring. Another store has a complete set of male underwear, which also looks good. Loincloths are also exceptionally common skimp-wear for men, although it's also often paired with armor that is more defined by what isn't there than what is. Bodysuits and kilts...well, I'll leave that to other folks as to whether they count...

    This isn't comprehensive; nor does it imply equivalence to the ladies sheer volume of 'OMGWTFBBQ is THAT?!' outfits; just for some reason the non-armor, sexy/sexualized male clothing is vastly more likely to be bodysuits, contemporary, or kilts... :)

    -- Morgan

    Post edited by CypherFOX on
  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,086
    edited December 1969

    Vaskania said:
    I do know what I like, but my definition of sexy is much different. For example, my hubby could be Kerry King's brother in both looks and wardrobe (only one tattoo though so far- he's face to face with customers and rarely has time to sit down @ a shop).

    Kerry King:


    Oh my! XD

    I was thinking the kind of style you see in modern magazines and fashion shoots like these ones:

    http://fashionszip.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Cheap-Male-Fashion.jpg
    http://innofashions.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/brown-pleated-jeans-male-fashion.jpg

    Hell, As much as I can't stand prep brands like Ambercrombe & Fitch and POLO some of their attire isn't that bad looking...

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited December 1969

    Also, if you can put shaders to good use, almost anything can become skimpwear. Fisty's Hardcore Utility shaders has some metal mesh shaders, that with some adjustments can probably be made to look like fishnet. I've also seen free shaders on sharecg meant for camo netting, but can be used for anything.

  • VaskaniaVaskania Posts: 5,108
    edited July 2013


    Oh my! XD

    LOL

    Yea, I can't stand prep wear, never could. I've always walked on the other side of the tracks in one way or another. Don't get me wrong, I do like myself some Channing Tatum every now and then, but for the most part I go with Sons of Anarchy, or Joe Manganiello types.

    Post edited by Vaskania on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited July 2013

    The way Octavis and Night Out Suit are portrayed Here is actually what sold me instantly on the Pro Bundle.
    For me both Octavius and Night Out Suit are completely non-skimwear clothes: full coverage, look like something real man could wear on a street. Are we still talking about male skimwear or about decent male clothes in general?

    Also, judging by your usernames, you two are ladies yourselves. Shouldn't you know what you like on a hot guy (assuming you're both hetero, of course)? ; )


    I don't care about sexy and hot, male, female or other, but hearing that some male skimwear is actually uses 'refitted female skimwear' principles peeked my curiosity because I can't see how is that. This is why I'm asking. And also because I can model something on dare.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 5,441
    edited December 1969

    I own one piece of male skimpwear. I use it on aliens, because it looks better than on men. It is basically a piece of spandex that bares one shoulder and comes with a pair of short shorts or leggings.. It is clingy. It looks great on the aliens to me, because it is very not real world and shows of alien skin and figure, which would be otherwise covered up by the M4 clothing I usually have. I bought it on impulse.

    Sexy to me is not what you wear, it is more subtle. It is not a painted on corset and high heels. It is a look, an attitude, and the mood of the scene. This is difficult to capture.

    I think for me, what I'd like to see for genesis men, is some nice basics. Not M4 converts, but underwear, white tank, white t-shirt, and morphs to roll sleeves up down. Perhaps some shorts with rips or tears. A decent jean jacket with fleece. A nice pair of tight jeans. Some scuffed cowboy boots. Flannel shirt. Cowboy hat. Workman's boots, hoodies, jeans of different styles (loose fitting, tight fitting), long underwear etc, sweater, shirts, club outfits, shorts, etc.

    I don't really want painted on, spandex, or wife beater shirts or mankinis. I really want clothing that fits the character. Making it sexy would have to do with the morphs available for the clothing, but shouldn't be the entire point of the outfit- at least for me. I tend not to do sexy renders. I want clothing to be as real world as possible.

    I also, admit I don't much care for freak stuff. He is too exaggerated for me.

  • Carola OCarola O Posts: 1,685
    edited December 1969

    Sexy to me is not what you wear, it is more subtle. It is not a painted on corset and high heels. It is a look, an attitude, and the mood of the scene. This is difficult to capture.

    I think for me, what I'd like to see for genesis men, is some nice basics. Not M4 converts, but underwear, white tank, white t-shirt, and morphs to roll sleeves up down. Perhaps some shorts with rips or tears. A decent jean jacket with fleece. A nice pair of tight jeans. Some scuffed cowboy boots. Flannel shirt. Cowboy hat. Workman's boots, hoodies, jeans of different styles (loose fitting, tight fitting), long underwear etc, sweater, shirts, club outfits, shorts, etc.

    Actually agree on this, sexy is so much more than just clothes.. you can put sexy clothes on a person.. but they still don't Look sexy because the mood is wrong, the eyes is wrong, the light or something else.

    And I defintely agree on the clothes Serene mentioned above, would Love to see that. A nice sunset, a nice man in ripped jeans, white t-shirt and That look in his eyes..... hmm yesh please *grins*

  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,900
    edited July 2013

    But for example, looking at today release, Elf Witch, I can say that, attitude or not, this outfit is designed to objectify female body with impractical cuts, highlighted cleavage, miniskirts and all other sort of things that make clothes into skimwear. Used by itself alone this outfit can't be anything else than 'sexy' (regardless of the choice of a woman who wears it, therefore objectifying her into narrow, predefined role that appeases certain demographics)

    From what I understand somebody in this topic said that men variation of skirmwear uses too often female skimwear principles instead. So it isn't about practical clothes that are worn in a flirty ways, but about certain design principles that are embedded in clothes themselves (like cuts, cleavage, miniskirts, etc, in this one). I am wondering that are those male skimwear design principles if they are so different from female ones.

    Post edited by Kattey on
  • MADMANMIKEMADMANMIKE Posts: 379
    edited December 1969

    jaebea said:
    Although I have not read this whole thread, I'm going to just toss my 2 cents worth in here. I also prefer Gen4 characters. Genesis fails in a couple of areas for me I end up using Genesis as background characters. I find that Gen 4, especially v4, items have pretty much been forsaken here. Only occasionally does something show up. I have to admit, I end up buying at the two other main stores because they are sticking with Gen4 in clothing and characters. I pretty much only buy scenes and props here and a Genesis outfit or two to convert to Gen 4 through PoserPro 2014's fitting room. Sorry Daz, I am hooked on V4!

    I addressed this earlier in the thread but nobody seemed to notice, so I'll bring it up again in detail..

    I only recently acquired a computer that could load D|S 4.6, and thus let me use Genesis, so until then I was using D|S 2.3 and pretty disgusted with the lack of support for Gen 3 figures. But now that I have it and have bought the Gen 3 shapes for Genesis, I'm loving it. Why? Because it truly is a universal figure; I can put any clothing in my library on the figure with little effort. (My first post showed an image using V4 and putting V3 and even V2 clothing on her).

    So here's Genesis with V3 body shape dialed up, wearing V4's Revier outfit. When you load a clothing item that isn't made for Genesis it pops up with the first dialog window where you select what figure it is from...

    Then you select what type of clothing it is, and it then does it's best to fit the clothing to Genesis.

    If there's still some poke-thru, just go to the Edit tab and select Apply Smoothing Modifier and you're done. Piece of cake!

    I haven't bought the M4/V4 shapes yet, so I guess the assumption is built into Genesis that you'll be using those figures clothes, but I think the list of Gen 3 shapes was only added after I bought them too.. does anyone know if that's the case?

    -Mike <8]

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  • will2powerwill2power Posts: 129
    edited July 2013

    To be perfectly honest, I am on the other end of the spectrum. I really think it's time to let go of the way they do clothing altogether. I think we've seen now with what's capable in 3d, that continuing to go the route of making conforming clothing means a continuing deadlock when it comes to figures. The idea is not to espouse a particular figure, but to make a means to clothe them that isn't dependent on what figure you are using at all. When you think about it, that's the solution that comes closest to making everyone happy.

    What do I mean?

    I mean that they keep trying to handle clothing in the same way that they handle organic geometry, and that's the probem. Each time a new figure gets created, you have to spend countless man hours converting this piece or that piece in order to accommodate this figure or that. So everyone has to wait for Vendor X to make a mod for Figure X. It's maddening. But I believe this can be eliminated almost entirely by stepping away from the methods we've previously used for clothing.

    What I'm suggesting is that it's time to develop a different geometry system for clothing, using what we've learned from all the years of working in Daz Studio. I'm saying that perhaps using something like voxel based clothing might be better, or something similar to marvelous designer where the fabric geometry is not based in quads. Clothing doesn't act like flesh, and I think that's part of the problem. It also opens up improvements by making it universal. Programmacially, it's easier to make rules that govern different geometries like making it so that clothing geometry isn't able to intersect figure geometry by default. Or making it possible to take a voxel dress and with a few specific brushes, you could paint in the creases or wrinkles or pull or push the fabric out of it's base shape without destroying it's geometry. I'm not suggesting either method over the other because I'm not an expert --I'm just pointing out that a different direction such as that might offer solutions that would make DAZ studio users of any generation of figure happy...

    That is, provided DAZ developed a utility similar to the transfer tool to go along with it, where you can take an existing clothing object and convert it to whatever new system is. I am NOT proposing a plugin simply because it avoids situations like we have now with Optitex where there's only one vendor of the clothing products.

    Post edited by will2power on
  • Paradigm67Paradigm67 Posts: 960
    edited December 1969

    What prevents DAZ from making a dynamic cloth room similar to poser's? That's what I miss most about poser.

  • ChristenChristen Posts: 218
    edited December 1969

    I'm over the slow down in Gen 4 content here. I understand DAZ not wanting to tell vendors what to make, and honestly don't think they would tell them to make Gen 4 content if they could. They obviously want support for Genesis. I just regret renewing my PC membership. Feels like a waste of money. Too few Poser (without DSON) releases now. If DAZ wanted to, they could commission vendors to make Gen4 content for their Poser and older versions of DS customers especially for the PC club.

  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,086
    edited July 2013

    Kattey said:
    The way Octavis and Night Out Suit are portrayed Here is actually what sold me instantly on the Pro Bundle.
    For me both Octavius and Night Out Suit are completely non-skimwear clothes: full coverage, look like something real man could wear on a street. Are we still talking about male skimwear or about decent male clothes in general?

    Also, judging by your usernames, you two are ladies yourselves. Shouldn't you know what you like on a hot guy (assuming you're both hetero, of course)? ; )


    I don't care about sexy and hot, male, female or other, but hearing that some male skimwear is actually uses 'refitted female skimwear' principles peeked my curiosity because I can't see how is that. This is why I'm asking. And also because I can model something on dare.

    Pretty much what Serene and Clara are getting at. Things that are overall enticing and easily seducing. Sexyware, whether it be male or female can be remotely conservative and teasing at the same time if executed right. Not every female piece here is all that revealing, but has design and presentation that triggers the sexual incentive.

    An example of this can be seen in the upper part of the just released Ms Magic for Genesis Female.Yes, there are the panties and pantyhose, but what actually struck out at me was the way the vest is designed. The vest is colored subtly and blends nicely with the rest of the piece, but at the cut of the vest mesh itself oh-so coincidentally makes a nice frame around the vibrantly hued chest area that just springs out.

    Then there's the infamous fantasyware, where we see more of the ever-scorned revealing stylized nature. There's thousands of them to reference that pop-up in the store just about DAILY, so there no point in analyzing them here. However, I will point out a male piece that was designed interesting enough for me to notice: the new Ashe for Genesis. Yes, it's still covering, but the loosely sewed openings on the sides and the form-fitting in the pants was enough to raise my eyebrows. Another male fantasy item that I was actually a big fan of until G1's Autofit literally killed it for me was Negase Hiro. With that, you actually had a nice combination of possibilities, from an pretty pelvis prince to a sexy shirtless sorcerer.

    Though, in my opinion what really gets the point across for sexy guys. is stuff like THIS! Hell, ANY of the guys and their portrayals from that particular artist is prime example of what Gen 6 men could use, from the dark sexy clothes, to the nice faces, and even the perfect skin textures. These products speak for themselves and have me coming back for more every time! :D

    And then there's the point that Serene makes that is another gripe of mine that I think men need more of: practical ware! What actually sells me more isn't so much what it turn me on, but rather can I find very useful and rational for realistic characters. If G2M is really going to be a more realistic male than any previous generation male, then this is something that really can't be neglected this time around if DAZ and the PAs want it to work. It's obvious that fantasy sex sells, and that's because I think is more artists than hobbyists, but that shouldn't stop or discourage anyone from trying see what will click with the demographics. That's why I wish someone could compare and contrast male clothing purchase rates among PAs, because that way we can get the idea of how to play the market game for men that will create more compliments than complaints.

    Post edited by RCDeschene on
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