Frustrated with Gen 4 'Fixes' considering switching to Genesis

MadisonXFMadisonXF Posts: 201
edited December 1969 in The Commons

Hi everyone.

I have been using Gen 4 figures for years and have a nice library built up. Recently I have been trying out some of the 'fixes' for the common problems with Gen 4, ie: thigh bends, arm bends, etc. I have bought and tried several products, but none of them have really wowed me. Some of them work, but are really fiddly and easily corrupted. Others claim to be quick, easy fixes but don't really work all that well.

One of the main problems seems to be that the fixes rarely work well with any body morphs, including common ones like th Elite series. I have a really hard time getting bodies that aren't standard issue work well with these fixes. For example, thinner characters and thicker characters...both seem to break all of the 'fix' products I have tried. Seems kind of pointless to have a 'fix' that only works with a stock Gen 4 figure. What if I want to use it with V4 Slyph, for example? I tend to end up with really messed up figures.

I'm also really reluctant to switch to Genesis because I don't want to lose my existing library. I have spent years investing in Gen 4, and can't afford to replicate that investment anytime soon. I know some things can be converted, but that seems like a difficult and unreliable process. Maybe I am just not very good at using the different fix products I have tried. Maybe I just need to invest more time in getting better at using them.

So, now that Genesis has been out for awhile, would people suggest that someone with my concerns switch over? The current sale is really tempting. I know people still have strong opinions on this, but my issues are fairly specific and I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

Comments

  • BiakoBiako Posts: 309
    edited December 1969

    The only problem with switching to Genesis is that your Gen4 characters will feel second rate and obsolete after at most a week :)

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 887
    edited December 1969

    I'd say it's worth moving over to Genesis.

    All the Gen4 textures work well on Genesis by default (M4 ones need UV switching, but it's one click in the surfaces tab).

    Looking at the Studio 4.5 RC threads, it appears the autofit troubles etc are being actively remedied; plus, there's always manual workarounds (like - if that's all about shoes - parenting them instead of conforming; and then, Hexagon is free as of now, and this is a capable modeler that lets you fix many problems through the Studio bridge). Those workarounds may take quite a lot of hassle indeed as of right now, but the overall joint quality of weightmapped figures is much better, in my experience.

    And having the M4 and V4 shapes for Genesis lets you have all your V4/M4 character morphs using just the transfer utility (the standalone GenX utility is said to work even better, but I like the built-in results).

    So I'd say it's worth it, for a Gen4 user.

  • MadisonXFMadisonXF Posts: 201
    edited December 1969

    Thank you for the replies. So would you say that the following two issues are greatly improved with Genesis:

    1) Gen 4 'problem' areas such as the arm bends, thigh bends, etc. Especially with non-stock character figures, ie: if I use a V4 Elite Slyph style character with V5, it will handle those bends as well as the stock V5. (This is the big one)

    2) Varied character figures, ie: V5 with varied leg lengths, hips, breast sizes, etc. (Also important since I felt like I had to invest in tons of extra packages for Gen 4 to get bodies that really captured the full range of possibilities)

    Thanks.

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 887
    edited December 1969

    In my experience, all the Genesis shapes I dialled in, including Gorilla and my own custom sculpted morphs, bent quite fine. Even mixed to atrocious proportions. But I may not be that creative with bending, of course. Normal poses look very good =) I also have to add that while I always dialled some Aiko4 "taper fingers" into V4 to make her hands look less lumberjack-y, I didn't need it with V4 Genesis shape.

    Do you have DS4 installed? This is all it takes, and you could test Genesis yourself - there's several body shapes included free which are quite varied, and can get crazy if mixed randomly.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 1,028
    edited December 1969

    MadisonXF said:
    Thank you for the replies. So would you say that the following two issues are greatly improved with Genesis:

    1) Gen 4 'problem' areas such as the arm bends, thigh bends, etc. Especially with non-stock character figures, ie: if I use a V4 Elite Slyph style character with V5, it will handle those bends as well as the stock V5. (This is the big one)

    2) Varied character figures, ie: V5 with varied leg lengths, hips, breast sizes, etc. (Also important since I felt like I had to invest in tons of extra packages for Gen 4 to get bodies that really captured the full range of possibilities)

    Thanks.

    1) IMVHO Genesis bends much better than V4, including V4WM. I'm sure this is not only due to the new weight mapping system, but also due to the much better topology of Genesis for human figures (instead of throwing additional polys at it, they designed the polys to mimic the human form). Dialing morphs has very little, if any effect on bending. I would suggest getting the Evolution morph sets as well as V5, you will have almost infinite possibilities and variety. If there are certain V4 characters that you would really like to use with Genesis, then getting the V4 morph (note - this is only the base V4 shape, no morphs, but you can use any of the other Genesis morphs in combination with it), and GENX (or using the transfer utility) to easily recreate your favorite V4 characters with Genesis.


    2) Again, this is just my opinion, but there really is no comparison between V4 and Genesis for creation of varied and scaled figures. Genesis really is that much better. I have all the Evolution morphs, V5, V4, G4, V3, A3, and some of the custom characters, and I don't regret buying any of it because of the amazing possibilities and infinite combinations you get with Genesis.


    if you haven't already done so, you should download DS4 and play with the default genesis figure a bit, then maybe get one of the starter packs that are on sale with a morph set you are interested in, the Genesis Starter Bundle looks like a good choice (http://www.daz3d.com/shop/genesis-starter-bundle/). I think once you see first hand how easy it is to use and morph Genesis, you'll really like the results.

  • thatbumzzzthatbumzzz Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    You could try V4WM, you have to convert clothes but from what Ive read its not too complicated and you can still use all your V4 stuff with Poser.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    MadisonXF said:
    Hi everyone.
    I'm also really reluctant to switch to Genesis because I don't want to lose my existing library.

    My perspective is that as a Studio user Genesis has massively enhanced the value of my library, not put it at risk.

    I can now use any Gen3 or 4 item of clothing on any character. There's the odd auto-fit foul-up, but it is only the odd one, and a lot better than the old-days of unsupported morphs rendering clothing useless for anything but the most basic of morphs. Hair remains fully usable, Gen 4 character textures can be used without issue, GenX lets me use Gen3 and 4 character morphs in Genesis without issue. The only things I can't swap over are Gen3 skins (don't really have enough to justify buying TC2 and it's easy enough to find a compatible Gen 4 skin) and characters for the Gen 3 kids, and I can still use those in their existing format.

    That last point bears repeating, I can still use every Gen 3 and Gen 4 item I ever bought, the risk to your existing library is zero, the only question is the return on investment from buying into Genesis, and the price to do that is currently pretty minimal.

  • DaikatanaDaikatana Posts: 235
    edited December 1969

    This is the perspective of a total neophyte to this world of Daz. Maybe its relevant and maybe its not but here goes.

    A good friend of mine tried to get me hooked on this hobby when I was only able to get the base version of Daz Studio. I tried it and found it too difficult to figure out. Then, when the "big giveaway" happened, I tried it again. This time it took. I had no content library to start with and began just using what came with the program and the content I was able to get with a voucher in my account for one of the starter bundles.

    At first I thought I was limited to just "Genesis stuff" but then the friend I mentioned previously stepped in to assist me again and I learned that I could use just about anything that was "V4 and M4 stuff". Then, I joined the Platinum Club and for what I consider a very reasonable outlay, I have begun to accumulate a library of assets from all over the range of what Daz and the Published Artists have done. Up to this point, it all seems to work and work very well with Genesis.

    I guess the point of my somewhat rambling "2 cents" here is that Genesis is fantastic in my opinion. After listening to my friend's reminiscences of how she had what seems to be such a higher learning curve when she started this with the generation 3 and generation 4 figures, I am so very thankful that it has been made easier for me with the Genesis figures.

    So, yeah, Genesis is absolutely excellent and everything seems to work just fine with it. I would say go for it.

  • MadisonXFMadisonXF Posts: 201
    edited December 1969

    Wow thanks for all the great replies. I think I'm sold.

    I will probably start with some of the bundles, since they are on sale. Aside from the previously mentioned Genesis Starter Bundle, do you guys have any recommendations on key Genesis products? I will definetly grab V5 and M5. I'm more interested in modern styles at the moment, and will probably save the fantasy / sci-fi items for later. My main concern right now is basic character anatomy / morhps / etc. for Genesis.

    One concern I have is that some items seem to be restricted to certain bundles. I noticed that something basic like genitals is only available in the Pro bundles. Why is that? Seems weird that you are forced to buy a bundle to get an item, instead of just buying that particular item. This sort of thing makes me a litte leary of the various bundle options. I don't want to get hosed buying the 'wrong' bundle and then finding that some simple item is only available in a different bundle.

  • BurstAngelBurstAngel Posts: 398
    edited December 1969

    Get the GenX plugin and the V4 and M4 morphs for Genesis. You'll be able to transfer your favorite Mil 4 morphs to Genesis. More bang for your buck!

  • LordHardDrivenLordHardDriven Posts: 917
    edited June 2012

    Daikatana said:
    Then, I joined the Platinum Club and for what I consider a very reasonable outlay, I have begun to accumulate a library of assets from all over the range of what Daz and the Published Artists have done.


    I just wanted to highlight and add to this one part for any new user out there. Now you may run into some unhappy people who are upset about something or other they feel Daz has done and they may claim otherwise, but hands down for the novice 3D artist just coming into this hobby, hands down the Platinum Club is the best investment one could make. Besides hundreds of items at a regular price of $1.99 and a dozen or more brand new never before released items every month also for $1.99 you also get a monthly voucher for $6 and 30% additional 30% discount on new published artist products. Also periodically they will also give special limited time deals such as a new figure or a new program (Like Bryce for example) at a riddiculously low price. Additionally PC members often get advanced access to exciting new products before non members. If that weren't enough once a year for a whole month they hold a PC Member Appraciation promotion for the whole month with all sorst of fantastic deals and bonuses. A sharp newcomer can easily more then pay off a annual membership with the savings they can get and there is no better way a newcomer can build up an impressive library for the least amount of money then by being a PC member and taking advantage of all the deals it provides you.


    I know first hand, I was a PC member for nearly 10 years straight and would still be one now if the economy hadn't tanked and put me in the situation I'm in forcing me to cut back on non essentials (which yes, unfortunately does include 3D content). Although it's not too bad with a content collection of several thousand different items to work with in my library I got enough already to keep me busy for a lifetime.

    Post edited by LordHardDriven on
  • HellboyHellboy Posts: 697
    edited June 2012

    I have to agree with what has been said.

    1) Genesis bends much better. I used to postwork the bendings. Not anymore. Its a huge improvement.
    There is some kind of automatic rigging adjustment for characters. This means V5 or M5 are not just morphs for Genesis, they have their own rigging that adjusts “behind the scenes”.
    Transferred Gen 4 characters will also bend better.

    2) I have GenX, I could transfer Gen 4 characters and morphs to Genesis if I wanted to, but to be honest, the morph mixing possibilities are now so high, I don’t bother with Gen 4 morphs anymore.

    Your previous content will actually be a lot more useful now. Once you start using Genesis you’ll start to feel things were much more limited with Gen 4. I can use and mix clothes, hair and textures of any character with any character I want without worrying about morphs included. This has opened a lot of possibilities for me and has made useful a lot of content I had buried.

    I’d also recommend joining the Platinum Club before picking stuff. It has saved me a huge amount of money.
    I’d concentrate on morphs, you can stick with textures, clothes and hair from Gen 4 for now.

    Post edited by Hellboy on
  • CypherFOXCypherFOX Posts: 2,368
    edited December 1969

    Greetings,
    +1 to LordHardDriven; I joined the PC before I made a single actual-money purchase from DAZ (i.e. it was, essentially, my first), because I realized after browsing for a bit that it was VASTLY financially superior to be a PC member. This is still true, and absolutely nothing has changed my mind on that.


    I think that DAZ should reinstate the 'If you were a PC member, this would be your price' segment of their item pages (for non-PC members, of course) as that's got to be GOLD for increasing memberships.


    The folks who are complaining about the PC are Poser-only, have been in it for MANY years, and have already bought nearly all of the $1.99 items over those years. (And are often ignoring the locations and props that get released, which are platform independent.) For anybody using DAZ Studio, or is new to the Platinum Club, it's an amazing deal. And one I'm confident will get better as DAZ makes changes to make up for some of what the old-timers feel they've lost.


    IMO, don't start buying stuff here without joining the Platinum Club. It'll pay for itself VERY quickly.


    -- Morgan

  • info_7ab70978f3info_7ab70978f3 Posts: 78
    edited June 2012

    Before you start pouring money and time into the Genesis hole you might want to study how soft bodies act, accept the loss on the "fix" morphs, and learn to use the morph tools to actually fix the mesh overlaps to realistically portray soft tissue compression.

    Post edited by info_7ab70978f3 on
  • Norse GraphicsNorse Graphics Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I'm also going to move over to Genesis, but only when they have a stable release of DAZ Studio (General Release). I'm not going to be a debugger for DAZ3D.

  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,769
    edited December 1969

    If it had not been Genesis and ability to put in stuff from V4/M4/etc, I probably would not have been hooked as well as I am now. I am of school of thought where maximized compatibility while looking good is driving philosophy in life -- specialization is for insects. ;) Clothes autofitting? ZOMG, cool. Content autoconforming? AWESOME.


    Two notes: GenX (and most other plugins) does not support 4.5RC2 yet, but if you get Genesis Evolution bundle, you won't need it for a while. Honest. Simply playing with those dialers is great deal of fun. However, as far as I know, most notable and important plugins are slated to get their update soon...ish.


    The second note is that 4.5RC2 is generally good, because it is surprisingly stable (at least in my system), and they have fixed auto-fit (so it retains morphs!) and it has push modifier available as well. Both of which have made my life easier. Since I don't have much in ways of plugins, I have fully switched using it.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 1,028
    edited December 1969

    MadisonXF said:
    Wow thanks for all the great replies. I think I'm sold.

    I will probably start with some of the bundles, since they are on sale. Aside from the previously mentioned Genesis Starter Bundle, do you guys have any recommendations on key Genesis products? I will definetly grab V5 and M5. I'm more interested in modern styles at the moment, and will probably save the fantasy / sci-fi items for later. My main concern right now is basic character anatomy / morhps / etc. for Genesis.

    One concern I have is that some items seem to be restricted to certain bundles. I noticed that something basic like genitals is only available in the Pro bundles. Why is that? Seems weird that you are forced to buy a bundle to get an item, instead of just buying that particular item. This sort of thing makes me a litte leary of the various bundle options. I don't want to get hosed buying the 'wrong' bundle and then finding that some simple item is only available in a different bundle.


    Unfortunately, if you want gens for V5 and M5, you have to get the Pro bundles. I can't say that I understand DAZ's reasoning, but they seem to be stead fast in their position. I've seen posts (in the old forum) with other ways to achieve anatomical correctness, but the only way to get the official version of the bits is to get the Pro bundles. Depending on what your doing, they may not be all that important. A good texture map and morph may be all you need for V5. M5 may be a bit more difficult with missing bits, I've seen posts stating that people have smart proped M4's bit to M5 with reasonable results.


    Which bundles to buy really depends on your focus, but right now the Pro and Suite bundles are fantastic deals for PC members. You can get the Pro Suite for V5 for less than I paid for the V5 Pro bundle a few months ago. As mentioned before GenX and the Gen 4 Morph bundle is nice to have to get your Gen 4 figures into Genesis. The Clothing Cleavage Modifier it great for making female clothing look more realistic between the breasts (AKA the tent effect), the best thing about it is that it doesn't modify the underlying geometry of the Genesis figure, which means it works very well with things like swim wear and low cut blouses. Pose Master is a great utility to easily get all your old Gen 4 poses into Genesis.


    Good luck - I hope you find Genesis to be as interesting and fun to use as I have. On the surface it seems like it might be a bit over hyped, but once you really start diving in and testing the possibilities, you understand why DS4/Genesis won the 3D World Software Innovation of the Year award - it really is that good.

  • SkirikiSkiriki Posts: 4,769
    edited December 1969

    Yeah, I'm totally going to recommend the decision to get both V5 and M5 Pro bundles (and remember, right now you can get -$10 for purchases exceeding $50 -- and you can do it as many times as you like, so buy them in two separate packs with a bit of extra if you need some, for maximum profit ;)), there's tons and tons of good stuff you can use.

  • MadisonXFMadisonXF Posts: 201
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for all the feedback.

    I've been playing with Genesis, and so far it is working nicely. The auto-fit tool generally does a great job of moving Gen 4 content onto Genesis.

    I'm going to go ahead and get some of the Gen 4 -> Genesis morph transfers, I think. I am a bit confused though...I see this:

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/genesis-generation-x-upgrade-from-gen4/

    But it says it is an upgrade...

    So is this all I actually need?

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/v4-and-m4-shapes-for-genesis/

    I mostly just want to be able to transfer certain faces over. I'm terrible at making my own faces, and there are several Gen 4 favorties that I would like to use with Genesis.

    Thanks!

  • Mustakettu85Mustakettu85 Posts: 887
    edited December 1969

    MadisonXF said:

    I'm going to go ahead and get some of the Gen 4 -> Genesis morph transfers, I think. I am a bit confused though...I see this:

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/genesis-generation-x-upgrade-from-gen4/

    But it says it is an upgrade...

    So is this all I actually need?

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/v4-and-m4-shapes-for-genesis/

    First of all, you do need the M4 & V4 Shapes if you want to transfer your favourite faces to Genesis and have them look the same. But then you have a choice: you can either buy this for an automated solution (the non-upgrade version):

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/genesis-generation-x/


    Or use the built-in Transfer Utility with the following easy steps (second post on this page): http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=186411&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

    I don't have GenX (yet...), but I've used the Transfer Utility to port a combined dialled & custom morphs character from V4 to Genesis, and loved the results.


    Hope that helps!

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