Genesis 2 is not Genesis

AdemnusAdemnus Posts: 608
edited December 1969 in The Commons

Genesis was the answer to having a male figure and a female figure, as we had from generations 1 through 4. Suddenly we had Genesis, which was 1 figure made to morph into both male and female figures, the selling point of which was vastly increased clothing options because it was all made for 1 figure!

Now, its a male and female again. Thus, its no longer Genesis, therefore its not Genesis 2, its V5 and M5 (what's currently called v5 and m5 are really just character morphs for genesis 1).

Anyway, wanted to make that distinction and point out that the new selling point, "The male and female specific bases not only allow for more masculine and feminine figures, but allow clothing to be designed more specifically for one or the other, rather than having to fit both. " was the selling point of generation 4 which we were told was now way better with Genesis because clothing would now be designed to fit both! Amusing to the extreme.

Nonetheless, releasing female without male? Seriously?

Not buying it until Male shows up.

And Im still trying to see in what way this is a superior, next generation figure.

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Comments

  • LycanthropeXLycanthropeX Posts: 2,199
    edited June 2013

    I'm waiting for Genesis 3, it can morph into anything !!!!

    gumby.jpg
    486 x 804 - 38K
    Post edited by LycanthropeX on
  • pwiecekpwiecek Posts: 680
    edited June 2013

    Nonetheless, releasing female without male? Seriously?

    Its been that way for 14 years.

    Post edited by pwiecek on
  • ThePatrickThePatrick Posts: 0
    edited June 2013

    pwiecek said:

    Nonetheless, releasing female without male? Seriously?

    Its been that way for 14 years.

    But that's just the point of the OP.

    It has been that way for 14 years, that male/female where separated. The big invention of Genesis (1) was that the separation was gone.

    Now the "apartheid" comes back! And it is again a "big invention".

    Provocative Question: When will Michael 3 come back as Michael 9 "invention"??

    Post edited by ThePatrick on
  • OridionOridion Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    pwiecek said:

    Nonetheless, releasing female without male? Seriously?

    Its been that way for 14 years.


    Didn't Genesis 1 come with both female and male shapes? And the evolution morphs worked for both genders. Like OP said, V5 and M5 were just character morphs, but at least you can start making some male figures with Gen 1 right off the bat.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,956
    edited December 1969

    Oridion said:
    pwiecek said:

    Nonetheless, releasing female without male? Seriously?

    Its been that way for 14 years.


    Didn't Genesis 1 come with both female and male shapes? And the evolution morphs worked for both genders. Like OP said, V5 and M5 were just character morphs, but at least you can start making some male figures with Gen 1 right off the bat.

    You could make male characters, but they didn't look that good.

    M5 followed V5 about five or six months after her release.

  • MuzeMuze Posts: 142
    edited December 1969

    I'm waiting for Genesis 3, it can morph into anything !!!!

    LOL...i can see it now...the stay puft marshmallow man.

  • pwiecekpwiecek Posts: 680
    edited December 1969

    Let me restate that.

    Its been that way for 14 years.

    Why do you expect anything different?

    People have been complaining about the lack of support for male characters for the entire 14 years and Daz has ignored them. EVERY generation has been the same. Yes, Genesis had male & female at the same time, but when it came to V5 & M5 it was right back to Vicki first followed by Michael.

    So, Its always been that way.
    Its STILL that way.
    Its ALWAYS going to be that way.
    Forever.
    Have a nice day.

  • pwiecekpwiecek Posts: 680
    edited December 1969

    Oh yeah, I forgot...

    ...Most people prefer it that way.

  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 1,728
    edited December 1969

    I don't prefer it that way. I can understand and tolerate there not being a Michael 6 now but to not have a Genesis 2 Male just seems strange. It is one more reason why many of us feel this should not be called Genesis 2, more like MegaUltraMorph Female.

  • LycanthropeXLycanthropeX Posts: 2,199
    edited December 1969

    Mega Ultra Morph? so you want to call her Mum?

  • robkelkrobkelk Posts: 3,190
    edited December 1969

    I'm waiting for Genesis 3, it can morph into anything !!!!


    Mmmmmmm... Genesis Cow...

    (Sockratease hasn't shown up yet - somebody had to say it!)

  • commorancycommorancy Posts: 0
    edited June 2013

    Oridion said:

    Didn't Genesis 1 come with both female and male shapes? And the evolution morphs worked for both genders. Like OP said, V5 and M5 were just character morphs, but at least you can start making some male figures with Gen 1 right off the bat.

    Just to step into the wayback machine a bit. V4 eventually added male morphs, but the M4 figure never had female morphs that I know of. The V4 males never looked very male and few PA created characters based on those morphs, but they were there if you wanted to use them. Why would you really want to spend the time creating male characters for V4's male morphs when you could spend the time creating them for M4 and make the character look far better. I'm sure that the seed for Genesis likely spawned when someone realized the potential of creating both male and female morphs on the same V4 figure. So, they expanded the idea into Genesis.

    So, yes, I do believe the base Genesis figure came with basic male and basic female shapes. You still had to get more morphs to extend the characteristics of the genders.

    However, I could be wrong, but I believe that Daz's plan may be to supply the Genesis 2 base with whatever figure you are buying. So, when M6 comes out, they'll again supply a new Genesis 2 figure that supplies the male characteristics. Does that mean there will be two Genesis 2 figures on the system? Who knows. Possibly. I'm personally a fan of the V4 and M4 figure types where they are standalone figures. I understand the want to create a single figure base, but that is at the expense of some flexibility of the figure. V4 and M4 had much more thorough facial morphs than Genesis has ever had. As technologically advanced an idea as Genesis was, it lacked in certain areas that just never got addressed.

    Perhaps they can finally be addressed in the Genesis 2 figure.

    Post edited by commorancy on
  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,081
    edited June 2013

    pwiecek said:
    Oh yeah, I forgot...

    ...Most people prefer it that way.
    Of course. Why? Because the eye-rolling reality of the matter is that DAZ is 3D, and 3D is a man's world. It's changing, but it's still a dominating statistic. DAZ 3D Studio allows it's consumers to buy content that will allow them to visualize their creativity with 3D mesh. And what do most men like to visualize about more than anything?


    Didn't Genesis 1 come with both female and male shapes? And the evolution morphs worked for both genders. Like OP said, V5 and M5 were just character morphs, but at least you can start making some male figures with Gen 1 right off the bat.

    Just to step into the wayback machine a bit. V4 eventually added male morphs, but the M4 figure never had female morphs that I know of. The V4 males never looked very male and few PA created characters based on those morphs, but they were there if you wanted to use them. Why would you really want to spend the time creating male characters for V4's male morphs when you could spend the time creating them for M4 and make the character look far better. I'm sure that the seed for Genesis likely spawned when someone realized the potential of creating both male and female morphs on the same V4 figure. So, they expanded the idea into Genesis.

    So, yes, I do believe the base Genesis figure came with basic male and basic female shapes. You still had to get more morphs to extend the characteristics of the genders.

    However, I could be wrong, but I believe that Daz's plan may be to supply the Genesis 2 base with whatever figure you are buying. So, when M6 comes out, they'll again supply a new Genesis 2 figure that supplies the male characteristics. Does that mean there will be two Genesis 2 figures on the system? Who knows. Possibly. I'm personally a fan of the V4 and M4 figure types where they are standalone figures. I understand the want to create a single figure base, but that is at the expense of some flexibility of the figure. V4 and M4 had much more through facial morphs than Genesis has ever had. As technologically advanced an idea as Genesis was, it lacked in certain areas that just never got addressed.

    Perhaps they can finally be addressed in the Genesis 2 figure.


    There will definitely be a Genesis 2 Male with Michael 6. DAZ themselves mentions it in V6's promo page.

    But here's the thing. What couldn't Genesis do that couldn't have eventually had the appropriate support created for it? Better face morphs, bends, gender-specific details, etc. are things things that could have been easily done with another gender-neutral figure with the same higher polymesh count and rigging as G2F has. G1 could become all sorts of things humanoid; from an ogre, a series of monstrous creatures, to an Anubis, and more. It even had a series of animal heads. So I fail to see the limitation of flexibility. DAZ 3D even received an award for Genesis for being "the most versatile 3D modeling character yet"! Versatility IS flexibility, for if you restrict or reduce the range of something, you are reducing its flexibility.

    Post edited by RCDeschene on
  • IceEmpressIceEmpress Posts: 500
    edited June 2013

    Of course. Why? Because the eye-rolling reality of the matter is that DAZ is 3D, and 3D is a man’s world. It’s changing, but it’s still a dominating statistic. DAZ 3D Studio allows it’s consumers to buy content that will allow them to visualize their creativity with 3D mesh. And what do most men like to visualize about more than anything?
    Uh, you do realize that there is a MASSIVE female userbase for Poser and Daz, right? In fact, itr appears as though the vast majority of human figure morphs/accessories/textures/etc vendors are female.
    The females are more popular for two major reasons:
    1. Sexy eyecandy for the guys
    2. Virtual paperdolls for the gals

    I've found, at least with freebie vendors, that you can often tell if they're male or female based on whether or not they offer a microbikini or similar fetishwear >_>

    Post edited by IceEmpress on
  • ThePatrickThePatrick Posts: 0
    edited June 2013

    Perhaps they can finally be addressed in the Genesis 2 figure.

    I doubt that and after Genesis 1 was going the one direction and 2 now goes the other -- either they just don't know where to go, or -- and that is just the smell of it! -- it is just a way to make more money with another generation of figures, where you have to buy everything again from scratch.

    Thats also the reason, I still did not jump onto the Genesis bandwagon -- and after release of Genesis 2 I find myself did just right!

    Post edited by ThePatrick on
  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,444
    edited June 2013

    Well from a different perspective, I will continue to convert my library to Genesis1 and stabilize there. I do not plan to take the time to convert it wholesale to Gen6.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,521
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Well from a different perspective, I will continue to convert my library to Genesis1 and stabilize there. I do not plan to take the time to convert it wholesale to Gen6.

    Ditto...I did buy v6 but genesis1 will remain my main character.

  • SassyWenchSassyWench Posts: 400
    edited December 1969

    Agreed too. :) I didn't buy V6 at all though. Just the G2F morph bundle and the V4 to G2F. But G1 will be my "most of the time" figure.
    I did transfer all G1 morphs to G2F using Ben's method because another character is always a good thing! LOL Just like I just bought Amity over at RO and she works a charm in DS too :) And the rumoured new figure will join them in my runtime right away too! The more the merrier. LOL
    But G1 is still the be all-end all for me. :)

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,521
    edited December 1969

    Agreed too. :) I didn't buy V6 at all though. Just the G2F morph bundle and the V4 to G2F. But G1 will be my "most of the time" figure.
    I did transfer all G1 morphs to G2F using Ben's method because another character is always a good thing! LOL Just like I just bought Amity over at RO and she works a charm in DS too :) And the rumoured new figure will join them in my runtime right away too! The more the merrier. LOL
    But G1 is still the be all-end all for me. :)

    Your a step in front of me then. I looked at the method and my brain hurt...I'm not sure that I'm willing to go to that extent.

    I'm also looking forward to the new figure as an additional tool in my runtime but I doubt that it will replace Genesis 1 unless it's a figure that can do both male and female.

  • SassyWenchSassyWench Posts: 400
    edited June 2013

    Pendraia said:
    Agreed too. :) I didn't buy V6 at all though. Just the G2F morph bundle and the V4 to G2F. But G1 will be my "most of the time" figure.
    I did transfer all G1 morphs to G2F using Ben's method because another character is always a good thing! LOL Just like I just bought Amity over at RO and she works a charm in DS too :) And the rumoured new figure will join them in my runtime right away too! The more the merrier. LOL
    But G1 is still the be all-end all for me. :)

    Your a step in front of me then. I looked at the method and my brain hurt...I'm not sure that I'm willing to go to that extent.

    I'm also looking forward to the new figure as an additional tool in my runtime but I doubt that it will replace Genesis 1 unless it's a figure that can do both male and female.

    LOL! Well I copied Kattey's but did Ben's method and it was really easy and quick! I posted a pic in that thread and to me she looked fine!
    And no.. at this point I don't think anything can replace Genesis for me either. :)

    Post edited by SassyWench on
  • commorancycommorancy Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Perhaps they can finally be addressed in the Genesis 2 figure.

    I doubt that and after Genesis 1 was going the one direction and 2 now goes the other -- either they just don't know where to go, or -- and that is just the smell of it! -- it is just a way to make more money with another generation of figures, where you have to buy everything again from scratch.

    Thats also the reason, I still did not jump onto the Genesis bandwagon -- and after release of Genesis 2 I find myself did just right!

    I jumped into the idea of Genesis pretty quickly, but only because I saw the possibility of a much longer lifespan of this figure and the potential for creating lots of characters. That and I've pretty much given up using Poser as I'm not fond of Firefly as a renderer. Up until Genesis 1, Daz had been pumping out new human mesh figures about every 6-9 months (from version 1 through version 4) including Victoria, Michael, Stephanie, David, Kids, Hiro, The Girl and The Freak, with our four legged mesh friends getting far less coverage like Dog, Cat and Horse. When Genesis arrived, that all stopped (other than the animals).

    Unfortunately, with the release of Genesis 2, the lifespan of Genesis 1 is now numbered. Oh, it'll still be there and it will be supported somewhat like V4 and M4, but Genesis probably has far less of a following in the Poser community than V4 and M4 as DSON importer doesn't really cut it over on the Poser world. They'd much rather have native figures which is why V4 and M4 still remain the most popular of the Daz figures for use in Poser.

    In fact, I'm all for a version 2 of the Genesis figure if they had actually fixed some of the problems with the mesh. Unfortunately, they haven't. There's still not a nail bed for the fingernails and toenails. So, setting up translucency / transparency doesn't work because it leads to a dark cave into the mesh. Additionally, the fingernails and toenails just aren't of the same quality that was on the V4 and M4 mesh, so you end up with what looks like press-on plastic nails even on male figures. Not cool if you're going for realism. In fact, I still find that the V4 and M4 meshes provide an overall more realistic look to characters than the Genesis mesh. The other thing that Genesis was said to provide was better, more realistic skin folds. I've never found that to be true. While the mesh did bend somewhat better in certain poses, it still wasn't that much better than the V4 and M4 mesh. In fact, it was more the mesh smoothing they added to Genesis that seems to work out the problems with the folds and not the actual mesh fold.

    Anyway, yes, Daz is in it for the money and I'm quite sure they realized that having Genesis as its primary figure definitely made a huge dent in its operating income for figure sales. Going back to the figure-release-every-X-months model will definitely raise their (and the artists') incomes because of the bundles as well as new clothing, hair and whatnot will have to be recreated for the new figures. I well understand this business model and I also understand why Daz wants to go back to it. Although, if they are planning on creating two different Genesis base meshes, then there's no difference in creating standalone Genesis mesh figures like V4 and M4 and, again, making them fully compatible with Poser (no DSON necessary). I always thought that Daz making the figure closed to only the DS system was not a good idea from an business perspective. So, for a very long time, Daz lived without the income of the Poser community for Genesis until they created DSON importer for Poser. Not a very business savvy thing to do.

    I also never understood why Daz would intentionally cut their market in half and exclude that many potential buyers. I'm guessing someone in Daz thought that they could recruit Poser users into purchasing Daz Studio? I bet it didn't happen quite that way. They may have gotten some purchases, but most Poser users are not going to drop using Poser just to get access to a figure they don't really need. Because while DS users were going a bit crazy over Genesis, the Poser community was just ignoring Daz and Genesis until the DSON importer was released.

    If this Genesis 2 mesh is the final mesh, then I'll have to wait for Genesis 3 to see any real improvements to the mesh at this point (unless they fix these problems on the Genesis 2 base male mesh). I still think that Daz should take the V4 and M4 meshes and improve upon these again, release them as 4.3 or similar and gear up them for the Poser world.

  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,081
    edited June 2013

    opal42987 said:
    Of course. Why? Because the eye-rolling reality of the matter is that DAZ is 3D, and 3D is a man’s world. It’s changing, but it’s still a dominating statistic. DAZ 3D Studio allows it’s consumers to buy content that will allow them to visualize their creativity with 3D mesh. And what do most men like to visualize about more than anything?
    Uh, you do realize that there is a MASSIVE female userbase for Poser and Daz, right? In fact, itr appears as though the vast majority of human figure morphs/accessories/textures/etc vendors are female.
    The females are more popular for two major reasons:
    1. Sexy eyecandy for the guys
    2. Virtual paperdolls for the gals

    I've found, at least with freebie vendors, that you can often tell if they're male or female based on whether or not they offer a microbikini or similar fetishwear >_>


    Indeed. hence why I acknowledge that it is changing, but don't let a lange number of female 3D artists fool you. The 3D world at large is still very much a man's land. Any economist who's savvy in the market of things like computer gaming will tell you that. Look at DAZ alone. Take a look at all the names the credits in the "About DAZ Studio" on your Studio application when you get the chance. Or better yet, simply recall the way they marketed Reby Sky for V4...

    Post edited by RCDeschene on
  • IceEmpressIceEmpress Posts: 500
    edited June 2013

    Oh,. well yes, the 3D world is overwhelmingly male. I thought we were referring to the DAZ and Poser world for some reason...

    I've also noticed that as far as the actual programming and shader-building (and props), the creators are nearly all male (a little less-so for the props than the programming)

    As for Reby Sky, I wasn't here back then (only been around since the end of December), but characters like her don't really need female marketing ploys, anyhow, so long as her versatility is covered in-depth and she comes with more clothing than simple fetishwear (skimpy clothes, from my observation, are not a problem with the female base so long as they don't venture into the extreme, like the aforementioned microbikinis.)

    Post edited by IceEmpress on
  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,444
    edited December 1969

    Actually there is the M4 Enhanced which has the Mina morph. There is also Guy4 for M4. Both are PA products.

  • SiscaSisca Posts: 826
    edited December 1969


    Indeed. hence why I acknowledge that it is changing, but don't let a lange number of female 3D artists fool you. The 3D world at large is still very much a man's land. Any economist who's savvy in the market of things like computer gaming will tell you that. Look at DAZ alone. Take a look at all the names the credits in the "About DAZ Studio" on your Studio application when you get the chance. Or better yet, simply recall the way they marketed Reby Sky for V4...

    Ummm...hate to burst your bubble but the largest segment of the gaming community is women between 30-60. This from the gaming industry itself. Admittedly they are not playing the high profile, graphics intensive, shooter/sports games on the latest console or high powered gaming PC. The vast majority are playing games like solitaire, match 3 or even web based strategy games on Facebook.

    I realize that for "hard core" gamers these aren't considered real games but from a business perspective they're a highly profitable market.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,444
    edited December 1969

    Nothing against women, but those aren't gamers, those are people playing games... there is a difference ;p

  • SiscaSisca Posts: 826
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Nothing against women, but those aren't gamers, those are people playing games... there is a difference ;p

    You'll have to define gamer then.

    From Dictionary.Com:

    Gamer:
    a person who plays games, especially computer or video games.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,444
    edited June 2013

    Just because it is in a dictionary doesn't mean it is correct. While my previous comment was tounge-in-cheek, there is a definition of the term 'Gamer' which has existed for a long time, people who are not part of that community and have no clue what it means may come along and redefine it incorrectly out of ignorance, but that just creates conflict between the original community who created the word and the larger community who misappropriated the term. This is a common feature of the dynamics of language. Sometimes, the original meaning gets restored, sometimes it gets lost. As is terms that are generated out of a community, exact definitions are somewhat grey, but the one thing you will find is that they are adamant that it is not the misappropriated version.

    In trying to answer your original question, and of course I do not speak for the entire community of 'Gamers,' a Gamer is someone who has a certain dedication level to a given genre of game that involves a good portion of their life. This means that yes, someone that plays the type of games you mentioned could in theory be a gamer, but it is unlikely as most people who play those type of games play them specifically because they can jump in and out of them 'without' a lot of commitment to them, thus excluding the vast majority of them from the term. Some of the Facebook games being obvious exceptions. To 'be a gamer' one gets into minutia of the game, not just playing it. Something like the difference between a 'Trekkie' and someone who watches Star Trek.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • SiscaSisca Posts: 826
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Just because it is in a dictionary doesn't mean it is correct. While my previous comment was tounge-in-cheek, there is a definition of the term 'Gamer' which has existed for a long time, people who are not part of that community and have no clue what it means may come along and redefine it incorrectly out of ignorance, but that just creates conflict between the original community who created the word and the larger community who misappropriated the term. This is a common feature of the dynamics of language. Sometimes, the original meaning gets restored, sometimes it gets lost. As is terms that are generated out of a community, exact definitions are somewhat grey, but the one thing you will find is that they are adamant that it is not the misappropriated version.

    In trying to answer your original question, and of course I do not speak for the entire community of 'Gamers,' a Gamer is someone who has a certain dedication level to a given genre of game that involves a good portion of their life. This means that yes, someone that plays the type of games you mentioned could in theory be a gamer, but it is unlikely as most people who play those type of games play them specifically because they can jump in and out of them 'without' a lot of commitment to them, thus excluding the vast majority of them from the term. Some of the Facebook games being obvious exceptions. To 'be a gamer' one gets into minutia of the game, not just playing it. Something like the difference between a 'Trekkie' and someone who watches Star Trek.

    As someone that has been playing games for over 35 years now (1st pen & paper/board games then computer games) and been involved in the game development community for the last 10 years I understand that the "Gamer" community has their own definition.

    Heck, even within the communities there is disagreement. To the avid tabletop gamer if you're not into pen & paper or board games you're not a true gamer. To many of the FPS players, if you suck at shooters you're not a gamer.

    Even within the communities for a specific game there is conflict. I play MMO's and have since the original Ultima Online so I'd think my pedigree as an MMO gamer should be pretty solid. However, I hate the whole concept of raiding, but in most of the MMO communities if you're not a raider then you're not a true gamer.

    My personal definition of a gamer is someone that chooses to use their free time playing or discussing games instead of watching TV.

    We now return you to your previously scheduled thread (smile - when are those getting fixed how hard can this be?)

  • Dino GrampsDino Gramps Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Sisca said:
    (smile - when are those getting fixed how hard can this be?)

    Not hard, just not a priority. Now that G2F has been released, maybe?

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