Subsurface Base Shader Usage

artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
edited May 2013 in DAZ Studio Discussion

I did a bit of testing with the Subsurface Base Shader. I wanted to try this out with Genesis and a Gen4 UV. The following was used:

Subject: Renee for Genesis which uses V4 UVs
Lights: UberEnvrionment2 with KHPark, Intensity 80%, 4XHi and YRot -65

The second image was rendered without changes to the default Renee surface parameters.

The first image was rendered after applying the Subsurface Base Shader to groups 1, 2, 3 only. Shader not applied to eyes. No edits.

The third image was rendered after setting the the Ambient Color and Strength to the original Renee defaults, the Pre SSS-Post SSS to 1, Group ID settings to 1,2,3 respectively, and Subsurface Off - On to 1. No other edits. Shader not applied to eyes.

In the renders using the Subsurface Base Shader there are artifacts in the eyes (edges) and especially in the mouth area where one can now see the teeth. I tried several different combinations but was not able to improve upon the third image.

I went through the write-up supplied with the shader but do not see what I am missing. Anyone have any suggestions?

**** FIXED ****
By applying scorpio64dragon's catch of my oversight in the next post. The fourth image is the corrected one. It would be handy to know if there are other optimizations that could improve this so if anyone wishes to comment, that may help us to understand how best to apply the shader in this type of scenario.

Post edited by artistb3 on

Comments

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,774
    edited December 1969

    Its the displacement turn the min and max down to 0

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    My bad. Missed that in the doc. That fixed it. Thanks.

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    The result is pretty good but there are likely optimizations that would improve it so if anyone has other suggestions...

  • ReDaveReDave Posts: 815
    edited May 2013

    Put a fairly strong spotlight behind pointing towards the camera, then apply the tricks we learned from Poser characters and users: reduce diffuse colour to a very light blue, and set SSS colour to fairly strong red. You'll have to experiment as to the relative colours, the ideal being that if you have only direct lights the skin result looks like skin, i.e. neither too red nor too blue.
    It's looking good, by the way!

    Post edited by ReDave on
  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited May 2013

    my quickly new base SSS shader tests

    render_ps8_ss8.png
    720 x 1280 - 1M
    good_02.png
    720 x 1280 - 1M
    Post edited by Slide3D on
  • will2powerwill2power Posts: 129
    edited December 1969

    I did a couple of Renders with the Subsurface Toon Shaders in the new 4.6. I just used the straight render settings with no adjustments to see what they would look like. The Eyebrows are done with the Genesis Eyebrow set. I was pretty impressed with how they came out versus trying to do toons the old way. I included an example of a toon style render done the old way and one done with the New SSS Toon Shaders so you can see the difference.

    Tooned_with_Eyebrows_3.jpg
    1920 x 1351 - 1M
    Mike_and_Paris_SSS_Tooned.png
    1920 x 1351 - 4M
    Cast_Toon_Rendered_New.png
    1920 x 1351 - 3M
  • DigitalrdwDigitalrdw Posts: 41
    edited December 1969

    Reading the documentation seemed to indicate that there are pre-sets for the Subsurface Shader somewhere but I can not find them.
    Any help would be appreciated.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    Reading the documentation seemed to indicate that there are pre-sets for the Subsurface Shader somewhere but I can not find them.
    Any help would be appreciated.

    with a basic shader presets are not installed they should be purchased separately

    but if you carefully read the documentation will be able to do without them
    shader is easy to set up

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,774
    edited December 1969

    The presets are in the store you have to buy them,
    http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/subsurface-toon-shaders
    http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/subsurface-gummy-plastic-shaders

    unfortunately the base doesn't come with any presets.

  • artistb3artistb3 Posts: 102
    edited December 1969

    ReDave said:
    Put a fairly strong spotlight behind pointing towards the camera, then apply the tricks we learned from Poser characters and users: reduce diffuse colour to a very light blue, and set SSS colour to fairly strong red. You'll have to experiment as to the relative colours, the ideal being that if you have only direct lights the skin result looks like skin, i.e. neither too red nor too blue.
    It's looking good, by the way!

    Thanks. Don't know if the two can really be de-coupled, but in the first pass I was trying to keep the lighting at its simplest and focus on the shader settings. Will try again with this and perhaps a canned light setup that everyone can access (e.g. Wancow's at http://www.sharecg.com/v/69039/browse/21/DAZ-Studio/WC-3Delight-Baseline-Test-Lighting).

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,774
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Reading the documentation seemed to indicate that there are pre-sets for the Subsurface Shader somewhere but I can not find them.
    Any help would be appreciated.

    with a basic shader presets are not installed they should be purchased separately

    but if you carefully read the documentation will be able to do without them
    shader is easy to set up

    Your renders look good but
    I'm not finding them easy at all to be honest I find PW and Ubersurface2 a lot easier to work with as well, I haven't got one decent result using this shader yet, render times are increased massively, got one now going its stuck reading the information been doing it for 10 minutes using Uber2 the render would have finished by now.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    my quickly new base SSS shader tests

    Very nice, Slide3D! I know it's your Francesca character (she's cute!), but please share which lights/lighting you used in DAZ 4.6? I think it''s the most realistic character render I've seen yet with AoA's new shader. And do you have a render time noted?

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited May 2013

    Slide3D said:
    my quickly new base SSS shader tests

    Very nice, Slide3D! I know it's your Francesca character (she's cute!), but please share which lights/lighting you used in DAZ 4.6? I think it''s the most realistic character render I've seen yet with AoA's new shader. And do you have a render time noted?


    2 distand light for rim(50%) and fill(20%) with raytreced shadows(Shadow Softness 30% for rim and 5% for fill light) plus UE2 in Bounce Light(GI) mode
    render time ~20min (i7 2600K)

    Post edited by Slide3D on
  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Slide3D said:
    my quickly new base SSS shader tests

    Very nice, Slide3D! I know it's your Francesca character (she's cute!), but please share which lights/lighting you used in DAZ 4.6? I think it''s the most realistic character render I've seen yet with AoA's new shader. And do you have a render time noted?


    2 distand light for rim(50%) and fill(20%) with raytreced shadows(Shadow Softness 30% for rim and 5% for fill light) plus UE2 in Bounce Light(GI) mode
    render time ~20min (i7 2600K)

    Thank you!!

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 1,745
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Slide3D said:
    my quickly new base SSS shader tests

    Very nice, Slide3D! I know it's your Francesca character (she's cute!), but please share which lights/lighting you used in DAZ 4.6? I think it''s the most realistic character render I've seen yet with AoA's new shader. And do you have a render time noted?


    2 distand light for rim(50%) and fill(20%) with raytreced shadows(Shadow Softness 30% for rim and 5% for fill light) plus UE2 in Bounce Light(GI) mode
    render time ~20min (i7 2600K)


    I'm not sure I fully understand this, and I want to. Lighting in 3Delight is the bane of my existence. Lighting in Lux and Blender could not be simpler but 3Delight is still an absolute crap shoot for me. Are you using default lights or is this some kind of trickery buried in the bowels of my runtime?
    Gorgeous rendering btw.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Slide3D said:
    my quickly new base SSS shader tests

    Very nice, Slide3D! I know it's your Francesca character (she's cute!), but please share which lights/lighting you used in DAZ 4.6? I think it''s the most realistic character render I've seen yet with AoA's new shader. And do you have a render time noted?


    2 distand light for rim(50%) and fill(20%) with raytreced shadows(Shadow Softness 30% for rim and 5% for fill light) plus UE2 in Bounce Light(GI) mode
    render time ~20min (i7 2600K)


    I'm not sure I fully understand this, and I want to. Lighting in 3Delight is the bane of my existence. Lighting in Lux and Blender could not be simpler but 3Delight is still an absolute crap shoot for me. Are you using default lights or is this some kind of trickery buried in the bowels of my runtime?
    Gorgeous rendering btw.

    I think it's partly Slide3D's usage of lights along with, importantly, the reduced settings and shadow softness, and the new SSS shader which evens things out. I remember when Poser and Carrara folks started figuring out how to get better lighting by reducing the output level of the lights. I think the same applies here.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Slide3D said:
    my quickly new base SSS shader tests

    Very nice, Slide3D! I know it's your Francesca character (she's cute!), but please share which lights/lighting you used in DAZ 4.6? I think it''s the most realistic character render I've seen yet with AoA's new shader. And do you have a render time noted?


    2 distand light for rim(50%) and fill(20%) with raytreced shadows(Shadow Softness 30% for rim and 5% for fill light) plus UE2 in Bounce Light(GI) mode
    render time ~20min (i7 2600K)


    I'm not sure I fully understand this, and I want to. Lighting in 3Delight is the bane of my existence. Lighting in Lux and Blender could not be simpler but 3Delight is still an absolute crap shoot for me. Are you using default lights or is this some kind of trickery buried in the bowels of my runtime?
    Gorgeous rendering btw.


    see video :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6lyEVOHjN0&list=PLIz5Oj4tjilesUb2bFxJHR51MOy0HqCHs&index=1

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    render time 2min 50sec (see on video)

    pic2.png
    800 x 1000 - 1M
  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    Wow! That's a good and fast render! Thank you for taking the time to make and post a video explaining the set up!

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 1,745
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    render time 2min 50sec (see on video)

    Awesome thanks! Now to see how much faster an i7 2700 is than the i7 920 I have in my rig.

  • AdemnusAdemnus Posts: 608
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Reading the documentation seemed to indicate that there are pre-sets for the Subsurface Shader somewhere but I can not find them.
    Any help would be appreciated.

    with a basic shader presets are not installed they should be purchased separately

    but if you carefully read the documentation will be able to do without them
    shader is easy to set up

    Then I hope someone sells some high quality normal human shader presets, because the doc reads like japanese stereo instructions to some of us. Its not easy for everyone.

  • DigitalrdwDigitalrdw Posts: 41
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Reading the documentation seemed to indicate that there are pre-sets for the Subsurface Shader somewhere but I can not find them.
    Any help would be appreciated.

    with a basic shader presets are not installed they should be purchased separately

    but if you carefully read the documentation will be able to do without them
    shader is easy to set up

    Then I hope someone sells some high quality normal human shader presets, because the doc reads like japanese stereo instructions to some of us. Its not easy for everyone.

    I agree. A normal human skin shader would be a big help.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    Reading the documentation seemed to indicate that there are pre-sets for the Subsurface Shader somewhere but I can not find them.
    Any help would be appreciated.

    with a basic shader presets are not installed they should be purchased separately

    but if you carefully read the documentation will be able to do without them
    shader is easy to set up

    Then I hope someone sells some high quality normal human shader presets, because the doc reads like japanese stereo instructions to some of us. Its not easy for everyone.

    William (AgeofArmour) has been explaining a bunch of stuff in this thread in the Commons, especially the last few pages:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/22193/

  • gestahdavegestahdave Posts: 4
    edited December 1969

    can't get the thing to work. don't know how to set it up. press on the preset with the green logo and a window appears for half a second. that's it.

    how do I use it please?, I'm getting frustrated and annoyed that such a thing should be so unclear

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,774
    edited December 1969

    Select the item you wish to apply the shader to in the scene tab then in the surfaces tab select then areas you want the shader applied to.
    If you want to retain the textures already applied to the figure the hold Ctrl down while double clicking th shader or preset. A box will pop up choose ignore for Images.
    Hope this helps.

  • gestahdavegestahdave Posts: 4
    edited December 1969

    Select the item you wish to apply the shader to in the scene tab then in the surfaces tab select then areas you want the shader applied to.
    If you want to retain the textures already applied to the figure the hold Ctrl down while double clicking th shader or preset. A box will pop up choose ignore for Images.
    Hope this helps.

    not really. I tried selecting the body parts in the right tab, and double clicking on the subsurface shader icon. I also tried it keeping ctrl and it asked me if I wanted all surfaces to benefit. I also tried to drag and drop directly on victoria and It let me choose some options. but it doesn't change anything. victoria still looks like she is made of rubber

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,774
    edited December 1969

    You need to select the surfaces in both the scene tab and the surfaces tab.
    You rarely see any change when using shaders until you render.
    Which texture are you using?

  • gestahdavegestahdave Posts: 4
    edited December 1969

    You need to select the surfaces in both the scene tab and the surfaces tab.
    You rarely see any change when using shaders until you render.
    Which texture are you using?

    sorry, but could you point to me where do I find those tabs?, I'm a Poser user, but I do want to give Daz studio a shot now that it has a better rendering by default.

    I know that in order to see results I have to render

    I'm using Norma texture on Victoria 6 (altough I did tests on 4.2 aswellwith other textures)

    I don't know, maybe is in some kind of option menu, but I can't find it for the life of me.

    on the left render default, on the right with subsurface base

    very little change, in fact, nothing that can be called an improvement

    norma.JPG
    1636 x 666 - 73K
    norma.JPG
    1636 x 666 - 73K
  • gestahdavegestahdave Posts: 4
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    render time 2min 50sec (see on video)

    hi, thanks to your tutorial I was able torender a not too shabby image, but I still don't get where the subsurface shader base comes in.

    I would be grateful if you'd care to clear it up for me

    vic8.png
    764 x 865 - 639K
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