Apparently the DAZ Install Manager is about ready

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Comments

  • DisparateDreamerDisparateDreamer Posts: 1,727
    edited December 1969

    until vendors stop naming and putting their products in folders named after themselves, and better categories are used for folder systems in installation files, this tool is absolutely useless. I have tried before using the "daz default" installations and I could never find the content. It was a big ugly runtime mess...

    Genesis stuff seems to be a LITTLE bit more organized but still too often under vendor name.
    Point is, this kind of tool is useless to me and would probably only slow me down by not letting me find things, making a massive runtime mess, and taking resources.
    A download manager, great. Install manager? Never.
    Better installers with less clicking time? Would be appreciated.
    Zip files? best of all!

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,640
    edited February 2013

    AtticAnne said:
    Before getting your bowels all in an uproar, please go back and read page 2 of this thread. DIM is not mandatory, but is highly recommended. In fact, re-read all the posts. Look at YouTube if you've the bandwidth and/or inclination. If a PC member you will get a chance to try it out next week. If you are not a PC member, wait until users start sharing their results. Then see if you want to take it for a test-drive.

    I would like to know why it's highly recommended. Is it just because the programers find it easier? Or is something changing that is going to expect we're using the DIM? If the later, what are future releases going to assume about our use of the DIM that those of us who don't use it are going to have to compensate for? I already have to adjust about 1/3 of my installs because expectations of how DS content is installed have changed, but I have no intention of rebuilding most of my content libraries to accommodate that, and adjusting those installs is actually less work than rebuilding those libraries. What else am I going to have to adjust? What is not using the DIM going to screw up?

    These are the questions that I want answered. Trying it out won't answer them. And frankly, I tend to find the ambiguous answers that DAZ programers give on questions like this rather patronizing. It comes across as if they believe their way to organize content is the "right" way for everyone. That may not be how they mean to come across, but it is inevitably how I end up reading it.

    Post edited by DaWaterRat on
  • LadonnaLadonna Posts: 7
    edited December 1969

    until vendors stop naming and putting their products in folders named after themselves, and better categories are used for folder systems in installation files, this tool is absolutely useless. I have tried before using the "daz default" installations and I could never find the content. It was a big ugly runtime mess...

    Genesis stuff seems to be a LITTLE bit more organized but still too often under vendor name.
    Point is, this kind of tool is useless to me and would probably only slow me down by not letting me find things, making a massive runtime mess, and taking resources.
    A download manager, great. Install manager? Never.
    Better installers with less clicking time? Would be appreciated.
    Zip files? best of all!


    When vendors would follow your suggestions and DON'T naming folders after their names, you would have a bigger runtime mess.

  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,640
    edited February 2013

    Ladonna said:
    until vendors stop naming and putting their products in folders named after themselves, and better categories are used for folder systems in installation files, this tool is absolutely useless. I have tried before using the "daz default" installations and I could never find the content. It was a big ugly runtime mess...

    Genesis stuff seems to be a LITTLE bit more organized but still too often under vendor name.
    Point is, this kind of tool is useless to me and would probably only slow me down by not letting me find things, making a massive runtime mess, and taking resources.
    A download manager, great. Install manager? Never.
    Better installers with less clicking time? Would be appreciated.
    Zip files? best of all!


    When vendors would follow your suggestions and DON'T naming folders after their names, you would have a bigger runtime mess.

    And that's part of the issue. There is no one way to organize content. I can see belovedalia's point. When she's trying to find the product she just installed, she tends to look for the product name, not the vendor. I do the same, but like to organize by vendor. (Don't bring up the Content Manager. That's it's own pain in the butt)

    Post edited by DaWaterRat on
  • RJS666RJS666 Posts: 5
    edited February 2013

    Agreed! I've never understood the option for an uninstaller and a desktop short cut for a pair of shoes! Bloat ware! I think most people who've been at this a while unpack to the desktop and then put things into their own runtime system categories.
    "I think I'll use that outfit..now who made it and what did they decide to file it under......?" NO, that doesn't work at all!

    Bells and whistles and shiny beads don't impress, simplicity ( a zip file) does.

    Post edited by RJS666 on
  • LadonnaLadonna Posts: 7
    edited December 1969

    Ladonna said:
    until vendors stop naming and putting their products in folders named after themselves, and better categories are used for folder systems in installation files, this tool is absolutely useless. I have tried before using the "daz default" installations and I could never find the content. It was a big ugly runtime mess...

    Genesis stuff seems to be a LITTLE bit more organized but still too often under vendor name.
    Point is, this kind of tool is useless to me and would probably only slow me down by not letting me find things, making a massive runtime mess, and taking resources.
    A download manager, great. Install manager? Never.
    Better installers with less clicking time? Would be appreciated.
    Zip files? best of all!


    When vendors would follow your suggestions and DON'T naming folders after their names, you would have a bigger runtime mess.

    And that's part of the issue. There is no one way to organize content. I can see belovedalia's point. When she's trying to find the product she just installed, she tends to look for the product name, not the vendor. I do the same, but like to organize by vendor. (Don't bring up the Content Manager. That's it's own pain in the butt)

    To organize the contets after categories is almost impossible.
    And if vendors would not name their stuff after their names, imagine the chaos.
    As example DM stuff. How much products they have? 60? Image just the geometry folder, not organized in 1 runtime ( Geometries/Marforno- just put all the files after product names. You would find just nothing after with a Terrabyte of stuff in your runtimes.

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited February 2013

    Mari-Anne said:
    Mari-Anne said:
    I am assuming we will need to add the new location of My Library in the Public folder under Current Directories in D|S 4.5's Content Directory Manager once we start downloading to the new location? In both Daz Studio formats as well as Poser formats? And if so, can the new Public/My Library path go last or should it go as the first location?
    If all your DAZ3D Content is going to be there, that is better being the first ones.

    No - I was not planning on uninstalling/reinstalling the existing content. Just use the new path for new content.

    Try it first before you make that decision. :coolsmile:

    Sorry. That doesn't work.

    Tell us why this is the best thing since sliced bread. something more than "You'll love it" And not just the Damn videos. I can't stand video tutorials, and if that's all the explanation you're giving, then you may as well be giving none, because I won't go watch them.

    I'm Sorry, but I absolutely Hate it when all we get is "Try it, you'll like it" and "We highly recommend you use it this way" without any decent explanation as to why this is "better" than installing it myself and organizing it myself. "Easier" isn't a good answer, because (as we saw with the default DS4 interface fiasco. Or am I the only one who remembers that?) what's easier for the programmers at Daz isn't necessarily easier for me. (See video tutorials, which don't match how I learn.)

    I love video tutorials + pdf, will safe you time :cheese:

    finally the installer tool :lol:
    what is next on daz list ? daz manual ???
    ps: with my modo license i have manual included around 1500 pdf pages, great info about every tool in the software. :vampire:

    Post edited by creativemodelsbe on
  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,640
    edited December 1969

    Ladonna said:
    Ladonna said:
    until vendors stop naming and putting their products in folders named after themselves, and better categories are used for folder systems in installation files, this tool is absolutely useless. I have tried before using the "daz default" installations and I could never find the content. It was a big ugly runtime mess...

    Genesis stuff seems to be a LITTLE bit more organized but still too often under vendor name.
    Point is, this kind of tool is useless to me and would probably only slow me down by not letting me find things, making a massive runtime mess, and taking resources.
    A download manager, great. Install manager? Never.
    Better installers with less clicking time? Would be appreciated.
    Zip files? best of all!


    When vendors would follow your suggestions and DON'T naming folders after their names, you would have a bigger runtime mess.

    And that's part of the issue. There is no one way to organize content. I can see belovedalia's point. When she's trying to find the product she just installed, she tends to look for the product name, not the vendor. I do the same, but like to organize by vendor. (Don't bring up the Content Manager. That's it's own pain in the butt)

    To organize the contets after categories is almost impossible.
    And if vendors would not name their stuff after their names, imagine the chaos.
    As example DM stuff. How much products they have? 60? Image just the geometry folder, not organized in 1 runtime ( Geometries/Marforno- just put all the files after product names. You would find just nothing after with a Terrabyte of stuff in your runtimes.

    Sorry, but no. Do not assume that what works for you is what's best for everyone. Out of Touch and Shana both just have the product name as the folder name. It makes finding their products fairly quick and easy. When I'm trying to find clothing, for example, several weeks after I've installed it. I remember what the clothing product was called far more easily than who made it.

    What works for you may not work for me. Please don't try to tell me that it should.

  • DanaTADanaTA Posts: 7,446
    edited December 1969

    Ladonna said:

    To organize the contets after categories is almost impossible.
    And if vendors would not name their stuff after their names, imagine the chaos.
    As example DM stuff. How much products they have? 60? Image just the geometry folder, not organized in 1 runtime ( Geometries/Marforno- just put all the files after product names. You would find just nothing after with a Terrabyte of stuff in your runtimes.

    And something nobody has considered...what if there are two products with the same file name, either in geometries or textures, and it's all lumped into one generic folder. Your system would be asking you if you want to overwrite the existing one. If you say yes, the other product won't work. If you say no, the new product won't work. And if you forget what it was, you'll never know until you try to use it and it says it can't find something. Good luck finding it!

    Dana

  • RJS666RJS666 Posts: 5
    edited February 2013

    10 years of Poser content, not a chance of remembering names of stuff. I have a very simple system broken down in things like V4 clothes, then that's broken down by style eg Steampunk, classic, modern. Same with Props , broken down into buildings, furniture, clothes props, hair props. Mats are divided up the same way. Makes everything quick and easy to find or browse.
    Just leave textures and geom's in their default folders and it works just fine

    Post edited by RJS666 on
  • LadonnaLadonna Posts: 7
    edited December 1969

    I do it the same :) And it works.

  • LadonnaLadonna Posts: 7
    edited December 1969

    DanaTA said:
    Ladonna said:

    To organize the contets after categories is almost impossible.
    And if vendors would not name their stuff after their names, imagine the chaos.
    As example DM stuff. How much products they have? 60? Image just the geometry folder, not organized in 1 runtime ( Geometries/Marforno- just put all the files after product names. You would find just nothing after with a Terrabyte of stuff in your runtimes.

    And something nobody has considered...what if there are two products with the same file name, either in geometries or textures, and it's all lumped into one generic folder. Your system would be asking you if you want to overwrite the existing one. If you say yes, the other product won't work. If you say no, the new product won't work. And if you forget what it was, you'll never know until you try to use it and it says it can't find something. Good luck finding it!

    Dana

    Exactly :)

  • ColdrakeColdrake Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    DanaTA said:

    And something nobody has considered...what if there are two products with the same file name, either in geometries or textures, and it's all lumped into one generic folder.

    I've bought thousands of product from DAZ since the day they opened and that's never happened. The files are going to be the same whether you use the manager or install it yourself. The DAZ Install Manager isn't going to change any of the file names, why do you think it would?


    Coldrake

  • WilmapWilmap Posts: 2,177
    edited December 1969

    Don't think I'll bother with this!

    I think I'll stick to the old way of installing content. With the amount of stuff I have. I know where it all is and I am not going to mess about with it.

  • DanaTADanaTA Posts: 7,446
    edited December 1969

    Coldrake said:
    DanaTA said:

    And something nobody has considered...what if there are two products with the same file name, either in geometries or textures, and it's all lumped into one generic folder.

    I've bought thousands of product from DAZ since the day they opened and that's never happened. The files are going to be the same whether you use the manager or install it yourself. The DAZ Install Manager isn't going to change any of the file names, why do you think it would?


    Coldrake

    Thousands...you've checked every one to see if there are no files in texture with the same name? I didn't say the DIM will change the name, I said the OS will ask if there is a duplicate name if you want to overwrite the original one. This actually was concerning the generic folder idea, not the installers or the DIM.

    How many files have you seen with the name reflection.jpg? Or gold.jpg? I've seen a few, and I haven't checked all of my installed content, not by a long shot.

    Dana

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,524
    edited December 1969

    Coldrake said:
    DanaTA said:

    And something nobody has considered...what if there are two products with the same file name, either in geometries or textures, and it's all lumped into one generic folder.

    I've bought thousands of product from DAZ since the day they opened and that's never happened. The files are going to be the same whether you use the manager or install it yourself.

    Coldrake

    personally I'm adopting a wait and see approach but I can see how it would be possible to have this occur...after all much as I love DAZ products I also buy from other stores and some things do have very similar names and I have even seen some mat files with the same names.

  • araneldonaraneldon Posts: 621
    edited February 2013

    I'm a little bit surprised to see so much negativity. Then again, many appear to misunderstand what it is and what it does.

    This thing is a vast improvement over the old installers.

    Edited to elaborate:

    - You don't have to use it. Content will be supplied in zips, so use whatever suits you best.
    - It can download your entire order history with a few clicks -- assuming your internet connection is up to it, and also assuming that DAZ's servers don't melt shortly after this goes live.
    - It can install any number of products with a few clicks.
    - As with the old installers, content can be installed wherever you please. The defaults are intended for technically challenged newbies.
    - Unlike the old installers this program can be fixed and improved.

    I could go on... Is it perfect in its current state? No, but the old approach has no advantages over this.

    Post edited by araneldon on
  • AprilYSHAprilYSH Posts: 681
    edited December 1969

    You won't be forced to use DIM but I prefer it over website downloads and single zips/installers because:

    DIM can be used as a download manager only (without using it as your install manager) and much easier than dealing with the current state of the website itemized history/purchase list. nuff said lol

    It's great as an installer too because even single products can have 4 separate zips/installers. And I tend to buy in batches so I'd have 20 to hundreds of zips to install at once... DIM installs about a hundred zips in 2 minutes without me clicking through each one.

    You can define several folders as download folders, and define several "runtimes" or content folders as install folders.

    I have acquired quite a collection over the years (heh) and have a system of runtimes I'm used to... but have a lot of mess in there too. How much stuff don't I even use or will never use again! And I used to have to not think about orphan files from stuff I've moved or deleted... ugh. Since DIM makes it so easy, I took the opportunity to completely overhaul and install everything again into a more logical and efficient library. So it's good for new users but also very good for long timers overdue for a cleanout.

    Spooky, you can quote me on that ;)

  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 805
    edited December 1969

    Occasionally I fix or improve DAZ files or use willingly an older version (as DAZ 'improved' the functionality), so I'd rather not have the installer blatantly copy over already existing files. Installing these into a new location would simply yield duplicate files.

    I could really live with the current download / install system if there'd be a decent way to get to know when a product was updated - no, a forum post is not a decent way - and just using the installer for that does not seem feasible.

    So in the end, for me the installer is not a product I'd even try.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,933
    edited December 1969

    DanaTA said:
    Coldrake said:
    DanaTA said:

    And something nobody has considered...what if there are two products with the same file name, either in geometries or textures, and it's all lumped into one generic folder.

    I've bought thousands of product from DAZ since the day they opened and that's never happened. The files are going to be the same whether you use the manager or install it yourself. The DAZ Install Manager isn't going to change any of the file names, why do you think it would?


    Coldrake

    Thousands...you've checked every one to see if there are no files in texture with the same name? I didn't say the DIM will change the name, I said the OS will ask if there is a duplicate name if you want to overwrite the original one. This actually was concerning the generic folder idea, not the installers or the DIM.

    How many files have you seen with the name reflection.jpg? Or gold.jpg? I've seen a few, and I haven't checked all of my installed content, not by a long shot.

    Dana

    I'm not understanding the issue here - where has it been suggested that textures or OBJ files will be lumped together in a generic folder? We can actually see how the content is set up, at least on the first draft, if we look at some of the older content that has been converted to zip already and the folder organisation is much as it was before, nor can I imagine that products that have been released recently were not set up as they would be for the IM even while being delivered in an installer. Where there's debate is over having a top-level folder in the library folder(s) named for the creator, with sub-folders for the product, or having a top-level folder nbamed solely for the product.

    (As an aside, duplicate names of textures and geometries should be at least rare as Poser is, or was, inclined to grab the first file it found with the right name even when the path in the library folder was complete and correct - so non-unique names would have generated errors ere now quite aside from installer issues.)

  • KeryaKerya Posts: 7,244
    edited December 1969

    Question: if I am using it only as a download manager - will it tell me about updated products?

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 1,845
    edited February 2013

    RAMWolff said:
    According to the video DAZ has a NEW designated Content folder location.... don't know why they did this but it's:

    C:\Users\Public\Documents\My DAZ 3D Library

    I know why they did it. I always run my modern systems (Vista and Win7 and Win8) as a "Standard" user. If you installed Studio as a Standard user you need to provide the Administrative password to do the installation. That convinces the Studio installer that you are the administrative user and seems to put an entry in the Registry so that when you install content and let the location go to the default value it gets put into the administrator's Documents folder instead of your own Documents folder, which of course you can't see when logged in as yourself. I went crazy trying to find where the hell my content was going to. (*grrr*). It appears that rather than fixing the problem, DAZ in their infinite wisdom has simply added another layer to it to make it appear farther away and thus illusionally smaller. o.O

    Putting the content in "public" means that at least you can see and modify it. Of course if you have multiple users with separate libraries that means that "public" is not a good default location. But who runs multiple users with separate libraries? Well, perhaps schools. I admit that the tool looks like it could accomodate new users and remove some confusion but only if you buy DAZ products, and if the product works exactly right and is properly maintained beyond the life of the original programmer. We know what happened to the website!!!!!

    I was going to write a definitive tutorial about the total philosophy of content management in Poser and DAZ but decided that nobody would read a 20 volume encyclopedia. Thank you DAZ you've now made it necessary for another volume. 8-s

    Of course for us old-timers with 5,000 models in our libraries, we're not going to rush out and reinstall everything just to let it be mis-managed by yet another miraculous software contraption from DAZ.

    Post edited by LeatherGryphon on
  • DaWaterRatDaWaterRat Posts: 1,640
    edited February 2013

    araneldon said:
    I'm a little bit surprised to see so much negativity. Then again, many appear to misunderstand what it is and what it does.

    This thing is a vast improvement over the old installers.

    Edited to elaborate:

    - You don't have to use it. Content will be supplied in zips, so use whatever suits you best.
    - It can download your entire order history with a few clicks -- assuming your internet connection is up to it, and also assuming that DAZ's servers don't melt shortly after this goes live.
    - It can install any number of products with a few clicks.
    - As with the old installers, content can be installed wherever you please. The defaults are intended for technically challenged newbies.
    - Unlike the old installers this program can be fixed and improved.

    I could go on... Is it perfect in its current state? No, but the old approach has no advantages over this.

    The issue, for me, came up with the "Highly recommended' Reinstall everything to a clean folder part. Every time something is "Highly recommended" to be used, I worry that it's because they're going to assume going forward that everyone is using it, and eventually not using it is going to screw something up. And I have no real interest in a complete rebuild. (Not to mention I've misplaced some non-Daz Zip folders from stores that don't exist anymore.)

    I'm glad they're going to Zips. That's fine. Great even. I won't miss the old installers for a moment. And using it as a download manager is probably a viable option for me. Maybe. Depending on how much bandwidth it sucks up. I'm not sure about our data limits, but I do share the house with two other people who use computers, one of whom has a tendency to stream TV shows, and the other who plays on-line games.

    But I've yet to be convinced that using the DIM as an installer is going to be worth the hassle of a complete rebuild. And it will be a hassle. Because after being able to customize which content library a product is installed to, it will still be a mess of non-standardized product folders that require reorganization into something that works for me. I'm still trying to get the damn Content Manager set up into something workable, since the defaults absolutely do not work for me at all. and no, I'm not going to rely on just the Content Manager for organization, since I still default to working from the Content Libraries.

    Unless I can tell the DIM that "Skimpy outfit #326" should have it's top user level folders in "Victoria 4/Wardrobe/Skimpwear"

    Post edited by DaWaterRat on
  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 147
    edited February 2013

    OK I partly know the answer but will ask anyways.....What about content I have gotten out of magazines like "3D world" and "3d Artist"? Those arn never going to be in my downloads list and there are also some models I got via a Daz permotion off of a CD they sent me from someones desk at Daz....lol. I know part of the answer, but, was hoping for an official one from Daz.

    There is also all of the content that I converted to Genesis...Morphs,Clothes,poses,and animate content.....
    how will that affect me I wonder. I guess I will just have to be very carful what content I decide to do this with.

    Post edited by Arcane Von Oblivion on
  • SpitSpit Posts: 1,604
    edited December 1969

    It's not as if the installers are dumping all .obj in Geometries with no subfolders, same with textures. I haven't worried about duplicate texture names for literally years. Even with the three different gold and silver reflection images that have been floating around the poserverse for years. There is nothing inherent in the zip files that would be any different from the exe's.

    I have had problems with pose names but they only happen when I start organizing files myself. If I want all the sitting poses of michael 4 in one folder, for example, I can't unless I re-name a bunch which have names such as pose 1, pose 2, or the like.

  • bighbigh Posts: 5,524
    edited December 1969

    This is going to be better then slice bread - o you naysayers !!!

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 1,953
    edited December 1969

    You will not need to reset your order history, the software handles that for you.

    Is there an option to limit how much it grabs? I dn't know about the US, but in many parts of the world there are caps on monthly bandwidth with punitive top-up fees for going over (and soem of us have big histories).

    And specifically what it grabs. :) Sorted all sorts of ways.

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 1,953
    edited December 1969

    Xfitz said:
    Maybe I missed it while skimming thru the three pages of comments, but where and when can we download the DIM?

    Nowhere, it is not available yet. But it should be soon (not "DAZ soon"). I just got a newsletter in which it is stated that PC members will be contacted about it next week.

    This tool redefines DAZ Soon. :)

  • DAZ_SpookyDAZ_Spooky Posts: 1,953
    edited December 1969

    RAMWolff said:
    Part of my concern Spooky one.... is that many of us choose to create our own directories within the Genesis default directory of People>Genesis. Clothing is split up ... see screen grab. The same for the Character sets and what I consider Fantasy sets are all in their own directories, makes finding stuff easier for me. Another concern is starting from scratch, a year later with literally Gigs of content to redownload and install is that it's mixed up with ALLOT of stuff from Renderosity and some fabulous freebies from JoeQuick, Wilmap and others. So it's really not SEEMING advantageous to go through all this. Convince me otherwise because trying to figure out how to split all that out from the data folder, texture folder and all the rest is going to be ALLOT of work.
    Exactly how is a tool supposed to know where you moved things to after install? Or how you renamed things?

  • 3Ddreamer3Ddreamer Posts: 285
    edited December 1969

    I was really looking forward to this tool to help keep on top of file updates but if I have to download everything again for it to work that is a show stopper. Some of what April has said means it might have a limited use for downloading and I'll look at it when it comes out, but I can't see me being able to use it as Daz may want...
    .
    What I assumed DIM would be was a database linked to your Itemized Order History that checked what you had installed and told you when it was updated (excluding DSON and Metadata additions), without having to download everything again before it recognise them.
    .

    I have a 10Gb download limit a month and trying to get this working to start with would blow that.
    I don't have superfast broadband, it would take days to download everything again.
    I don't download on only one pc, but I install on one, and to get this to recognise everything I would have to download on that one.
    I *want* to keep current backup copies that I can install again if I want/need, without downloading again.
    I have a few Weekly freebies I downloaded but never installed because I'll probably never use them, I keep them 'just in case'. I still don't want them installed.
    Like Arcane, I have things off 3d World and 3D Artist, like V5, which I'd never buy but I have her 'just in case' I need her.
    I don't want the *recommended* clean install because that would mess up all the categorising I've done
    I have my DS3 and Ds4 runtimes, I don't want to add in yet another location to my Content Library as suggested in the video, would mess with my backups too - so I need a *really* good explaination why I should.
    .

    So like many I am not seeing this as useful any more, if version 2 comes with a database-import/content interrogation feature of my current folders instead of downloads it might be usable in the future.

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