International EULA suggestions

JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in The Commons

Um, which EULA? There are EULA from 2002 forward and has been modified/adapted ever since. Apart from that, as I understand, the EULA needs to be in each and every language that digital products are sold. Since DAZ sells, worldwide, they need to update quite a few EULAs. It would be an unfair advantage to have them in English only, therefore if that is the only language they are/were provided then they are not valid. The EULA is valid at the time of purchase, so if someone who primarily speaks German who doesn't understand English, let alone read English, then they use the mesh in a game, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

As I understand, conforming or modifying a mesh for a game would totally change the resolution to low res or another format and it will not be comparable with the original mesh. The new script will not be the same nor will anyone be able to prove it was the original. But, visually it will look the same (even if extracted out of the game). Games usually use there own bone system (see Oblivion)... can you imagine how many Poser meshes have been used in that game, alone, and no one can do anything about it.

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Comments

  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 796
    edited December 1969

    Jazzmin said:
    ...so if someone who primarily speaks German who doesn't understand English, let alone read English, then they use the mesh in a game, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

    Then there's the Native English speaking people who cant understand English, let alone read English.


    Do they get a pass too?

  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    Ledhead said:
    I understand but in my opinion, if you pay for something you should have the right to use it as you see fit, as long as you are not reselling the product itself, but using the product in an environment like a game, you paid for it, you should be able to use it.


    Please read this psrt of the EULA

    4. RESTRICTIONS ON COPYING. The 3-D Model(s) is provided for User's
    exclusive use. User does not have the right to provide the 3-D Model(s) to
    others in any form or on any media except as set forth in this License
    Agreement. The 3-D Model(s) may be copied in whole
    or in part for User’s exclusive use. Specifically, you (the User) may copy the
    3-D Model(s) onto the storage device of an unlimited number of computers;
    provided that all such computers are physically located at your business or,
    if you are an individual, your place of residence located at a single specific
    street address (or its equivalent). Unauthorized copying of the 3-D Model(s)
    is expressly forbidden.

    This is an extract from the game license You first need to purchase this license before you can distibute anything in this manner, and even then, as Arien has already said, it is only a license for products that are "owned" by Daz3D, and does not cover PA items.

    You can read the complete EULA here

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/entries/123940


    ANd you can find the License itself in the store here, if you wish to purchase one

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/catalogsearch/result/?q=License

    Again, the EULA is in English. In order for it to be valid it needs to be in all languages. Those English only speakers, take a look at the EULA snipet that Chohole provied, and tell me if you understand?

    4. ограничения на копирование. 3-D модели (s), приводится для пользователя исключительного использования. Пользователь не имеют права предоставлять на 3-D модели (s) для других в любой форме или по какой-либо средств массовой информации за исключением случаев, указанных в настоящем лицензионном соглашении . 3-D модели (ы) может быть задействован в целом или частично для пользователя исключительного использования. Вы сука!

    or

    4. Beschränkung der VERVIELFÄLTIGUNG. Die 3-D-Modell(s) ist für den exklusiven Gebrauch. Benutzer hat nicht das Recht, die 3-D-Modell(e) zu anderen in irgendeiner Form oder auf eine beliebige media except as set forth in this License Agreement. Die 3-D-Modell(n) können kopiert werden, in whole or in part for User's exclusive use. Du Blöde kuh!

    or

    4. RESTRIÇÕES À CÓPIA. Os modelos 3D(s) é fornecido para uso exclusivo do utilizador. Utilizador não têm o direito de fornecer o modelo 3D(s) aos outros, qualquer forma ou em qualquer material excepto conforme estipulado neste Contrato de Licença . Os modelos 3D(s) pode ser copiado no todo ou em parte para uso exclusivo do usuário. Você cadela!

    or

    4. تقييد الاستنساخ. 3-نموذج دال على (ص) تزويد المستخدمين إلى ويقتصر استخدامها. المستخدم لا يملك الحق في تقديم نموذج (3-د) على الآخرين بأي شكل أو بأي وسائل الإعلام إلا ما ورد في اتفاق الترخيص . 3-( د) نموذجي يمكن نقله في كليا او جزئيا عن حصرية استعمال المستخدم. وليس لك!

    or

    4. Περιορισμοί σχετικά με την αντιγραφή. Το 3-D μοντέλο(s) παρέχεται για χρήστη αποκλειστική χρήση. Ο χρήστης δεν έχει το δικαίωμα να παρέχει το 3-D μοντέλο(s) σε άλλους σε οποιαδήποτε μορφή ή με οποιοδήποτε μέσο εκτός από όσα ορίζονται στην παρούσα Άδεια Χρήσης . Το 3-D μοντέλο(s) μπορεί να αντιγραφεί στο σύνολό τους ή εν μέρει για χρήστη αποκλειστική χρήση.

    Would you agree to these terms that are provided in the installer?

    English is my mother language... it all looks Greek to me, lol

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,914
    edited December 1969

    DAZ is in the US and the laws of the US govern transactions. If people don't understand the EULA they need to either refrain from buying/using the content or get the terms explained. Not speaking English is not a valid excuse for breaking the EULA.

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 2,673
    edited December 1969

    Jazzmin said:
    Um, which EULA? There are EULA from 2002 forward and has been modified/adapted ever since. Apart from that, as I understand, the EULA needs to be in each and every language that digital products are sold. Since DAZ sells, worldwide, ..............

    Actually DAZ Sells in the USA. People from a worldwide market may shop at DAZ, but as such the DAZ is only required to have the EULA in their official language which is English.
    The people who buy at daz from other countries would be required to become aware of what the actual EULA states before they shop. The emphasis is on them to know exactly what they are buying, and how it can be used.
    If DAZ opened up a unique website in other countries and makes sales in those countries, then the EULA would have to be written in that language.

  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited June 2012

    DAZ is in the US and the laws of the US govern transactions. If people don't understand the EULA they need to either refrain from buying/using the content or get the terms explained. Not speaking English is not a valid excuse for breaking the EULA.

    I think you're wrong Richard, that's an errogant attitude. DAZ is selling internationally not just in the US where those laws apply. How is a customer who doesn't speak English supposed to "refrain fro buying/using the content" if the customer does't speak English and DAZ doesn't provide proper translation for the customer. This is an international legal issue. I understand that DAZ is in the US, however they are selling world wide. Check out Sony's website with regard to official updates for PS3. The browser detects your location and provides the EULA in the country's primary language. You have to accept the agreement before downloading the file. This is just an example as most providers of digital products will provide such a feature, um, except DAZ?

    In DAZs case, the EULA should pop up before the customer buys the product so they are properly informed before giving up their cash and not like it is now where the customer buys the product then gets the EULA with the installer after the purchase.

    It's about fair warning. This means that each customer should have been given warning or the EULA prior to purchase, so they can make an informed decision. Even the movie industry gives a warning before purchase. Since this did not happen... then each customer is actually entitled to a refund of their purchase for the last ten years.

    The way the EULA is presented at this time, it's a small print on the back page of a contract. It's sneaky. The EULA needs to be available prior to purchase and should be in all languages, just as Sony, Houdini and many other reputable corporation do in their normal business practices in the world. They provide the contract agreement before purchase.

    Post edited by Jazzmin on
  • ArienArien Posts: 173
    edited December 1969

    You might have to go and give that same advice to Adobe, Microsoft, and nearly every single other software provider that only gives you the EULA when installing, the way DAZ does. Also, until the website switch over, about 3 weeks ago, DAZ provided information on their usage restrictions and the full EULA in the HELP section, right now links need to be updated.

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/forums/133380-licensing-and-legal

    And there's even a specific section, created over 2 years ago, on using items on a game, here
    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/entries/123839-can-i-use-daz-3d-s-products-in-a-video-game-that-i-am-producing

    So hardly "sneaky" or "small print", and definitely information that's been available prior to purchase.

  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    RawArt said:
    Jazzmin said:
    Um, which EULA? There are EULA from 2002 forward and has been modified/adapted ever since. Apart from that, as I understand, the EULA needs to be in each and every language that digital products are sold. Since DAZ sells, worldwide, ..............

    Actually DAZ Sells in the USA. People from a worldwide market may shop at DAZ, but as such the DAZ is only required to have the EULA in their official language which is English.
    The people who buy at daz from other countries would be required to become aware of what the actual EULA states before they shop. The emphasis is on them to know exactly what they are buying, and how it can be used.
    If DAZ opened up a unique website in other countries and makes sales in those countries, then the EULA would have to be written in that language.

    This is an international legal issue. If you're right then DAZ needs to lock the IP address of all those countries outside of the US and if one happens to get through then they must actually decline to sell products to them.. I have a funny feeling that most of DAZs customers are not in the US, so that would be like chopping off your nose to spite your face.

    Look at how big corporations do business. Sony, Samsung, HP, Hollywood, Poser, etc provide their EULA in advance and in their customers' language and they don't profess to be doing business solely in the US and require their customers to understand that language before they take their money.

    There are sites that don't sell internationally through a lock out during the payment process. The countries that are accepted will be available in a drop down list. Easy as that for DAZ if they only want to sell to US customers who primarily speak English.

  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Arien said:
    You might have to go and give that same advice to Adobe, Microsoft, and nearly every single other software provider that only gives you the EULA when installing, the way DAZ does. Also, until the website switch over, about 3 weeks ago, DAZ provided information on their usage restrictions and the full EULA in the HELP section, right now links need to be updated.

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/forums/133380-licensing-and-legal

    And there's even a specific section, created over 2 years ago, on using items on a game, here
    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/entries/123839-can-i-use-daz-3d-s-products-in-a-video-game-that-i-am-producing

    So hardly "sneaky" or "small print", and definitely information that's been available prior to purchase.

    Okay. I'll justify with an explanation. It's common knowledge that Microsoft and Adobe provide their EULA in different languages in advance of purchase. Heck, they provide their applications in the language of your choice. What DAZ has done, to some degree, is sneaky and small print for those who don't speak English.

    How is someone who doesn't speak English supposed to find the information you provided if the site and forum are only in English? Besides that fact that the links aren't even working correctly, as you said. The EULA has to be updated again, but will not be valid for previous purchases because the current EULA is not contained in those older products.

    Your excuses are not valid statements as you are just taking sides without basing your opinion on facts. I just hope you're not DAZ attorneys ;)

    BTW do you know what Genesis means?

  • BarubaryBarubary Posts: 972
    edited December 1969

    Jazzmin said:
    chohole said:
    Ledhead said:
    I understand but in my opinion, if you pay for something you should have the right to use it as you see fit, as long as you are not reselling the product itself, but using the product in an environment like a game, you paid for it, you should be able to use it.


    Please read this psrt of the EULA

    4. RESTRICTIONS ON COPYING. The 3-D Model(s) is provided for User's
    exclusive use. User does not have the right to provide the 3-D Model(s) to
    others in any form or on any media except as set forth in this License
    Agreement. The 3-D Model(s) may be copied in whole
    or in part for User’s exclusive use. Specifically, you (the User) may copy the
    3-D Model(s) onto the storage device of an unlimited number of computers;
    provided that all such computers are physically located at your business or,
    if you are an individual, your place of residence located at a single specific
    street address (or its equivalent). Unauthorized copying of the 3-D Model(s)
    is expressly forbidden.

    This is an extract from the game license You first need to purchase this license before you can distibute anything in this manner, and even then, as Arien has already said, it is only a license for products that are "owned" by Daz3D, and does not cover PA items.

    You can read the complete EULA here

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/entries/123940


    ANd you can find the License itself in the store here, if you wish to purchase one

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/catalogsearch/result/?q=License

    Again, the EULA is in English. In order for it to be valid it needs to be in all languages. Those English only speakers, take a look at the EULA snipet that Chohole provied, and tell me if you understand?

    4. ограничения на копирование. 3-D модели (s), приводится для пользователя исключительного использования. Пользователь не имеют права предоставлять на 3-D модели (s) для других в любой форме или по какой-либо средств массовой информации за исключением случаев, указанных в настоящем лицензионном соглашении . 3-D модели (ы) может быть задействован в целом или частично для пользователя исключительного использования. Вы сука!

    or

    4. Beschränkung der VERVIELFÄLTIGUNG. Die 3-D-Modell(s) ist für den exklusiven Gebrauch. Benutzer hat nicht das Recht, die 3-D-Modell(e) zu anderen in irgendeiner Form oder auf eine beliebige media except as set forth in this License Agreement. Die 3-D-Modell(n) können kopiert werden, in whole or in part for User's exclusive use. Du Blöde kuh!

    or

    4. RESTRIÇÕES À CÓPIA. Os modelos 3D(s) é fornecido para uso exclusivo do utilizador. Utilizador não têm o direito de fornecer o modelo 3D(s) aos outros, qualquer forma ou em qualquer material excepto conforme estipulado neste Contrato de Licença . Os modelos 3D(s) pode ser copiado no todo ou em parte para uso exclusivo do usuário. Você cadela!

    or

    4. تقييد الاستنساخ. 3-نموذج دال على (ص) تزويد المستخدمين إلى ويقتصر استخدامها. المستخدم لا يملك الحق في تقديم نموذج (3-د) على الآخرين بأي شكل أو بأي وسائل الإعلام إلا ما ورد في اتفاق الترخيص . 3-( د) نموذجي يمكن نقله في كليا او جزئيا عن حصرية استعمال المستخدم. وليس لك!

    or

    4. Περιορισμοί σχετικά με την αντιγραφή. Το 3-D μοντέλο(s) παρέχεται για χρήστη αποκλειστική χρήση. Ο χρήστης δεν έχει το δικαίωμα να παρέχει το 3-D μοντέλο(s) σε άλλους σε οποιαδήποτε μορφή ή με οποιοδήποτε μέσο εκτός από όσα ορίζονται στην παρούσα Άδεια Χρήσης . Το 3-D μοντέλο(s) μπορεί να αντιγραφεί στο σύνολό τους ή εν μέρει για χρήστη αποκλειστική χρήση.

    Would you agree to these terms that are provided in the installer?

    English is my mother language... it all looks Greek to me, lol

    seems completely legit to me. Especially that remark at the end of the paragraph(s) ;-)

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 8,739
    edited June 2012

    It's impossible to provide it in all the languages out there. It's real easy to use a free translator on the web. Google being one of the best. We use it all the time for communication with non English speaking users

    Post edited by frank0314 on
  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Barubary said:
    Jazzmin said:
    chohole said:
    Ledhead said:
    I understand but in my opinion, if you pay for something you should have the right to use it as you see fit, as long as you are not reselling the product itself, but using the product in an environment like a game, you paid for it, you should be able to use it.


    Please read this psrt of the EULA

    4. RESTRICTIONS ON COPYING. The 3-D Model(s) is provided for User's
    exclusive use. User does not have the right to provide the 3-D Model(s) to
    others in any form or on any media except as set forth in this License
    Agreement. The 3-D Model(s) may be copied in whole
    or in part for User’s exclusive use. Specifically, you (the User) may copy the
    3-D Model(s) onto the storage device of an unlimited number of computers;
    provided that all such computers are physically located at your business or,
    if you are an individual, your place of residence located at a single specific
    street address (or its equivalent). Unauthorized copying of the 3-D Model(s)
    is expressly forbidden.

    This is an extract from the game license You first need to purchase this license before you can distibute anything in this manner, and even then, as Arien has already said, it is only a license for products that are "owned" by Daz3D, and does not cover PA items.

    You can read the complete EULA here

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/entries/123940


    ANd you can find the License itself in the store here, if you wish to purchase one

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/catalogsearch/result/?q=License

    Again, the EULA is in English. In order for it to be valid it needs to be in all languages. Those English only speakers, take a look at the EULA snipet that Chohole provied, and tell me if you understand?

    4. ограничения на копирование. 3-D модели (s), приводится для пользователя исключительного использования. Пользователь не имеют права предоставлять на 3-D модели (s) для других в любой форме или по какой-либо средств массовой информации за исключением случаев, указанных в настоящем лицензионном соглашении . 3-D модели (ы) может быть задействован в целом или частично для пользователя исключительного использования. Вы сука!

    or

    4. Beschränkung der VERVIELFÄLTIGUNG. Die 3-D-Modell(s) ist für den exklusiven Gebrauch. Benutzer hat nicht das Recht, die 3-D-Modell(e) zu anderen in irgendeiner Form oder auf eine beliebige media except as set forth in this License Agreement. Die 3-D-Modell(n) können kopiert werden, in whole or in part for User's exclusive use. Du Blöde kuh!

    or

    4. RESTRIÇÕES À CÓPIA. Os modelos 3D(s) é fornecido para uso exclusivo do utilizador. Utilizador não têm o direito de fornecer o modelo 3D(s) aos outros, qualquer forma ou em qualquer material excepto conforme estipulado neste Contrato de Licença . Os modelos 3D(s) pode ser copiado no todo ou em parte para uso exclusivo do usuário. Você cadela!

    or

    4. تقييد الاستنساخ. 3-نموذج دال على (ص) تزويد المستخدمين إلى ويقتصر استخدامها. المستخدم لا يملك الحق في تقديم نموذج (3-د) على الآخرين بأي شكل أو بأي وسائل الإعلام إلا ما ورد في اتفاق الترخيص . 3-( د) نموذجي يمكن نقله في كليا او جزئيا عن حصرية استعمال المستخدم. وليس لك!

    or

    4. Περιορισμοί σχετικά με την αντιγραφή. Το 3-D μοντέλο(s) παρέχεται για χρήστη αποκλειστική χρήση. Ο χρήστης δεν έχει το δικαίωμα να παρέχει το 3-D μοντέλο(s) σε άλλους σε οποιαδήποτε μορφή ή με οποιοδήποτε μέσο εκτός από όσα ορίζονται στην παρούσα Άδεια Χρήσης . Το 3-D μοντέλο(s) μπορεί να αντιγραφεί στο σύνολό τους ή εν μέρει για χρήστη αποκλειστική χρήση.

    Would you agree to these terms that are provided in the installer?

    English is my mother language... it all looks Greek to me, lol

    seems completely legit to me. Especially that remark at the end of the paragraph(s) ;-)

    LOL... you figured it out... I thought I'd just make sure everyone was paying attention ;)

  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Frank0314 said:
    It's impossible to provide it in all the languages out there. It's real easy to use a free translator on the web. Google being one of the best. We use it all the time for communication with non English speaking users

    Well, um... Google provides a very easy to use translator that can be placed on any site with just about any language available and it's called "Site Translator." DAZ should be aware of this feature as a site admin, it's kindergarten for building sites ;) The fact that it's not on the site implies that DAZ doesn't want the EULA understood by all international customers. The vendor should provide translation because they are selling a product. It is not up to the customer to translate a EULA because business is NOT just done in the US.

    That aside, my point is that money is being exchanged for a product with conditions (the EULA). Those customers who don't speak English need to be fairly informed BEFORE they exchange their money for the product and that is my only point. If the EULA is not in the customer's primary language, then it's unfair and therefore, sneaky.

    Can you imagine Microsoft making agreements with everyone around the world and their EULA is only in English because Microsoft is a US based company? Come on, let's use our brains.

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 8,739
    edited December 1969

    Split to a new topic.

  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,480
    edited December 1969

    Under US law, it is the responsibility of the "End User" to read and agree to abide by the rules, regulations and restrictions set down in writing in the EULA. When you check the "agree" box when installing the software, you are entering into a contract with the designer that permits you to use the software within the tenants and constraints of the contract.

    If an "End User" does not comprehend the EULA, they should not agree to it. Of course if you don't check the little "agree" box, the software won't install.

  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited June 2012

    icprncss said:
    Under US law, it is the responsibility of the "End User" to read and agree to abide by the rules, regulations and restrictions set down in writing in the EULA. When you check the "agree" box when installing the software, you are entering into a contract with the designer that permits you to use the software within the tenants and constraints of the contract.

    If an "End User" does not comprehend the EULA, they should not agree to it. Of course if you don't check the little "agree" box, the software won't install.

    That's US law, we're talking about international law. That's what treaties are about. When you do business across the globe, then you enter outside the jurisdiction of US law. And "entering into a contract" is exactly why both parties should understand what is being agreed upon. If the end user doesn't understand what they are agreeing to then they shouldn't be forced to do it nor should they be held accountable. That means if DAZ isn't fair, as in fair lending laws, you know, when you buy a house, they can't expect that someone understands or agrees. They did, after all, give DAZ money for the product. So, they should be informed before they give up the cash.

    If you bought a house and the entire contract were in Spanish or whatever, and you didn't speak/read/understand Spanish, would you sign it? I hope not. That's why there are mortgage laws to protect consumers from unscrupulous lenders. If the contract is not in a language you comprehend then after it is signed and the consumer wants to back out, he will released from that contract.

    Why do you think the DMV puts their written exam in different languages in the the US? People have to understand what the heck is going on.

    All I'm saying is make it freaking fair. English is not the only language spoken in this world and it's arrogant to assume so. If you're going to business world wide then prepare for it, just like the big kids Sony, Microsoft, HP, etc.

    Post edited by Jazzmin on
  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Jazzmin said:
    ...so if someone who primarily speaks German who doesn't understand English, let alone read English, then they use the mesh in a game, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

    Then there's the Native English speaking people who cant understand English, let alone read English.


    Do they get a pass too?

    LOL... if those native English speakers are within the US then they are under US laws, so they won't get a pass. But, I''m not talking about a pass for anyone... I'm talking about fairness. If you're going to sell your wares around the globe then you better learn to communicate in many different languages.

  • lithomantislithomantis Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    There are those of us non-US citizens who speak and read English perfectly proficiently. We're called "the English" and it's fair to say that it's our primary language. Of course, Americans do some ghastly things with it but we can still understand them almost all of the time.

    Actually icprncss, I think the point the OP is making is that items aren't being bought or used under US law. If the EULA isn't valid, it makes no difference whether the buyer agrees to it or not. Legally, it may be a valid point - jurisdiction is certainly not as clear-cut as where it was sold. It's definitely not as clear-cut as 'you agreed to the EULA so that makes it valid.' That's just circular thinking. This may be an issue where Daz (and plenty of others) have been comfortably flying under the radar for years, simply because they're too small to be noticed. Interesting.

  • jerhamjerham Posts: 121
    edited June 2012

    Very interesting disucussion, did a quick look at it. And found the following for EULA's here in the Netherlands (from an article written by a highly regarded dutch IT laywer).

    It says nothing about the languauge except that it needs to be understandable for the customer. However if found this part, which i found very interesting:


    (Google translate)
    Voidability of the EULA terms, they may not unreasonably onerous. For consumers and end users there is also a black and gray list of "banned" provisions. A EULA provision can thus be destroyed. Think of the exclusion of liability or a stipulation that only a Californian court may decide a dispute.


    From the DAZ EULA:


    b. Governing Law, Jurisdiction, and Venue. This Agreement is
    governed by the laws of the State of Utah. Jurisdiction and venue for the
    enforcement of this Agreement shall be found exclusively in the courts
    within Utah County, State of Utah.

    Post edited by jerham on
  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    jerham said:
    Very interesting disucussion, did a quick look at it. And found the following for EULA's here in the Netherlands (from an article written by a highly regarded dutch IT laywer).

    It says nothing about the languauge except that it needs to be understandable for the customer. However if found this part, which i found very interesting:


    (Google translate)
    Voidability of the EULA terms, they may not unreasonably onerous. For consumers and end users there is also a black and gray list of "banned" provisions. A EULA provision can thus be destroyed. Think of the exclusion of liability or a stipulation that only a Californian court may decide a dispute.


    From the DAZ EULA:


    b. Governing Law, Jurisdiction, and Venue. This Agreement is
    governed by the laws of the State of Utah. Jurisdiction and venue for the
    enforcement of this Agreement shall be found exclusively in the courts
    within Utah County, State of Utah.

    The following is sarcasm, so please refrain from making the poster feel bad about what he says.


    Well I don't live in Utah so I'm not sure if they would be able to extradite me to Utah from Missouri/and or Kansas for that type of crime.


    Of course I love the state of Utah and it would be disheartening to have to drive around such beauty because of a warrant for my illegally using 3D content, so I guess I will do my best to abide by those laws. See the following video.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1UKGgLNL1Y&feature=g-upl

  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 796
    edited June 2012

    Ledhead said:

    No!

    See this video (mildly offensive!) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gBvYJ21SoQ

    Post edited by Sockratease on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,914
    edited June 2012

    The governing law bit refers to arguments over the meaning of the EULA. If DAZ decides to sue you for rendering an insufficient number of naked Vickies in temples they will have to go to you, or possibly to the location of your chosen gallery, as I understand it.

    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    The governing law bit refers to arguments over the meaning of the EULA. If DAZ decides to sue you for rendering an insufficient number of naked Vickies in temples they will have to go to you, or possibly to the location of your chosen gallery, as I understand it.

    LOL

  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    Ledhead said:

    No!

    See this video (mildly offensive!) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gBvYJ21SoQ

    Okay, that was funny, but mine is the pics I took in the beautiful state of Utah and some pics in AZ

  • jerhamjerham Posts: 121
    edited June 2012

    Ledhead said:
    jerham said:
    Very interesting disucussion, did a quick look at it. And found the following for EULA's here in the Netherlands (from an article written by a highly regarded dutch IT laywer).

    It says nothing about the languauge except that it needs to be understandable for the customer. However if found this part, which i found very interesting:


    (Google translate)
    Voidability of the EULA terms, they may not unreasonably onerous. For consumers and end users there is also a black and gray list of "banned" provisions. A EULA provision can thus be destroyed. Think of the exclusion of liability or a stipulation that only a Californian court may decide a dispute.


    From the DAZ EULA:


    b. Governing Law, Jurisdiction, and Venue. This Agreement is
    governed by the laws of the State of Utah. Jurisdiction and venue for the
    enforcement of this Agreement shall be found exclusively in the courts
    within Utah County, State of Utah.


    The following is sarcasm, so please refrain from making the poster feel bad about what he says.


    Well I don't live in Utah so I'm not sure if they would be able to extradite me to Utah from Missouri/and or Kansas for that type of crime.


    Of course I love the state of Utah and it would be disheartening to have to drive around such beauty because of a warrant for my illegally using 3D content, so I guess I will do my best to abide by those laws. See the following video.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1UKGgLNL1Y&feature=g-upl

    Do not worry i won't feel bad, maybe it needed a bit more clarification. And maybe the wrong example :) . I'm not talking about illegal dowloading etc (hate that myself), or going to court with DAZ, but about the international use of the EULA. Consumer protection and laws here are completly different as US laws (do not know how that is between states in the US). Maybe it does not have to be in Dutch (here), but DAZ still has to " deal" with the different international laws, which could make the EULA useless.

    EDIT:

    The governing law bit refers to arguments over the meaning of the EULA. If DAZ decides to sue you for rendering an insufficient number of naked Vickies in temples they will have to go to you, or possibly to the location of your chosen gallery, as I understand it.


    Naked vicky's? .... Only when my wife is not looking haha, do not want to get her mad. Please do not sue me.

    Post edited by jerham on
  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    jerham said:
    Ledhead said:
    jerham said:
    Very interesting disucussion, did a quick look at it. And found the following for EULA's here in the Netherlands (from an article written by a highly regarded dutch IT laywer).

    It says nothing about the languauge except that it needs to be understandable for the customer. However if found this part, which i found very interesting:


    (Google translate)
    Voidability of the EULA terms, they may not unreasonably onerous. For consumers and end users there is also a black and gray list of "banned" provisions. A EULA provision can thus be destroyed. Think of the exclusion of liability or a stipulation that only a Californian court may decide a dispute.


    From the DAZ EULA:


    b. Governing Law, Jurisdiction, and Venue. This Agreement is
    governed by the laws of the State of Utah. Jurisdiction and venue for the
    enforcement of this Agreement shall be found exclusively in the courts
    within Utah County, State of Utah.


    The following is sarcasm, so please refrain from making the poster feel bad about what he says.


    Well I don't live in Utah so I'm not sure if they would be able to extradite me to Utah from Missouri/and or Kansas for that type of crime.


    Of course I love the state of Utah and it would be disheartening to have to drive around such beauty because of a warrant for my illegally using 3D content, so I guess I will do my best to abide by those laws. See the following video.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1UKGgLNL1Y&feature=g-upl

    Do not worry i won't feel bad, maybe it needed a bit more clarification. And maybe the wrong example :) . I'm not talking about illegal dowloading etc (hate that myself), or going to court with DAZ, but about the international use of the EULA. Consumer protection and laws here are completly different as US laws (do not know how that is between states in the US). Maybe it does not have to be in Dutch (here), but DAZ still has to " deal" with the different international laws, which could make the EULA useless.

    EDIT:

    The governing law bit refers to arguments over the meaning of the EULA. If DAZ decides to sue you for rendering an insufficient number of naked Vickies in temples they will have to go to you, or possibly to the location of your chosen gallery, as I understand it.


    Naked vicky's? .... Only when my wife is not looking haha, do not want to get her mad. Please do not sue me.

    I apologize, I was just making a joke. I am sorry you misunderstood where I was coming from. Maybe I need to take at look at how I present a little sarcasm next time to make sure it is what it is and not misunderstood as something that it is not.

  • jerhamjerham Posts: 121
    edited June 2012

    Ledhead no problem. After reading your last post i see i misunderstood, also sorry for that.


    However also a nice example about the subject:


    DAZ Export:


    8. EXPORT RESTRICTIONS. The 3-D Model(s) may be subject to the export
    controls of the United States Departments of State and Commerce and User
    agrees to fully comply with all applicable United States export
    regulations governing export, destination, ultimate end user, and other
    restrictions relating to the 3-D Models.


    Microsoft export :


    EXPORT RESTRICTIONS. The software is subject to U.S. export laws. You must comply with all domestic and international export laws and regulations that apply to the software. Such laws impose restrictions on destinations, end users and end use.

    I deliberately used the microsoft EULA, this because they had some problems here in Europe a while back)

    Post edited by jerham on
  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 2,673
    edited December 1969

    The trouble with threads like this is that it is easy for it to touch on topics of nerves for some people.
    Alot of the arguments are the exact same ones that the warez people use to justify their theft. They look for what they believe as being loopholes in the law and feel that as such they are entitled to do what they want.


    The EULA is a simple straight forward legal document. So anyone who tries to purposely find holes in it will be held up to a similar regard as a warezer, even if they are not, and the comments made may reflect this. Because it is something that is a sore point for many people.

    But DAZ has their lawyers who are well versed in the legal documentation required to run their business, so you can rest assured that the EULA is a valid legal document which can be enforced where and when they wish to do so. It is for everyone's protection.

    Rawn

  • Hades 65Hades 65 Posts: 0
    edited June 2012

    RawArt said:
    The trouble with threads like this is that it is easy for it to touch on topics of nerves for some people.
    Alot of the arguments are the exact same ones that the warez people use to justify their theft. They look for what they believe as being loopholes in the law and feel that as such they are entitled to do what they want.


    The EULA is a simple straight forward legal document. So anyone who tries to purposely find holes in it will be held up to a similar regard as a warezer, even if they are not, and the comments made may reflect this. Because it is something that is a sore point for many people.

    But DAZ has their lawyers who are well versed in the legal documentation required to run their business, so you can rest assured that the EULA is a valid legal document which can be enforced where and when they wish to do so. It is for everyone's protection.

    Rawn

    This just comes in handy .... to justify an argument of someones witch has a different meaning it is easy to just accuse or pretend they would be a part of illegal communities !!! the same they do on governments or dictatorships ... those who meaning differ are terrorists !!!! the easiest way to deflect an argument . I would say no wonder that allot of people change side as soon as they turn there brain on, as people do not like to be accused or placed under a regime.

    the eula is formulated very complicated there are pages you have to read only to find out what you can not use it for !!! actually a simple way of buisness to be able to change the terms all the time without that people really get aware of changes.
    But it could be made simple also the warning before buying !!!!

    Sample :
    This Product is property of Daz
    Purchasing this Product will only allow you to use it in your Personal environment .
    you may only use this Product for Renders.
    you may only use this product for animations clips.
    all other use is Prohibited and can be or will be prosecuted by Law.

    as simple as that and I think it would then be better understandable for most people.
    also easy to add this in different languages.

    Your argument reflects that you must spend allot of time on those Sites to be able do document it this way.
    the temptation of grabbing Pirated stuff would be pretty high , so I can also assume that someone who
    spends allot of time there also is in property of those. then presents him self to the second group
    as merturer , well undercover agent avoiding them to suspect the truth by saying it in a opposite way.

    accusing others can easily create a boomerang effect !!!

    Post edited by Hades 65 on
  • JazzminJazzmin Posts: 0
    edited June 2012

    RawArt said:
    The trouble with threads like this is that it is easy for it to touch on topics of nerves for some people.
    Alot of the arguments are the exact same ones that the warez people use to justify their theft. They look for what they believe as being loopholes in the law and feel that as such they are entitled to do what they want.


    The EULA is a simple straight forward legal document. So anyone who tries to purposely find holes in it will be held up to a similar regard as a warezer, even if they are not, and the comments made may reflect this. Because it is something that is a sore point for many people.

    But DAZ has their lawyers who are well versed in the legal documentation required to run their business, so you can rest assured that the EULA is a valid legal document which can be enforced where and when they wish to do so. It is for everyone's protection.

    Rawn

    Trouble? Discussing issues never gets resolved by sticking our head in the sand. This is a discussion thread and shouldn't be touching on anyone's nerves.

    Nobody said the EULA isn't a simple straight-forward legal document. My point is that it should be available in different languages, so that the non English speaking customers understand what they are agreeing to. I originally responded in this thread

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/1820/
    where the OP specifically stated that English is not his mother tongue. An admin chose to make this thread a new topic.

    "Anyone who tries to purposely find holes in it will be held up to a similar regard ass a warezer, even if they are not, and the comments made may reflect this." That's a BS answer and it's the same thing as saying, "How dare you question the government, that means you're unpatriotic" and that's major BS... it's an answer that comes from someone who is ignorant. Intelligent, thinking people should always question authority when authority is being abused or is over reaching. Matter of fact, it is our responsibility to question and make changes when it is within our ability.

    Loopholes? If there is a weakness in the law, you can rest assured that an attorney will find it. Matter of fact an attorney has a legal duty to do everything within their power to win their client's case. That's just the way our legal system is set up in the US. Why do you think it's such a litigious state??

    The EULA may be a legal document in the US, but even there English is not a mandatory language. I'm talking about international law anyway. If a company sells software outside of the US to customers world wide and they require a legal agreement for its use then, in all fairness, they should put that agreement in the primary language for that customer. Like I said the other day, Sony has this feature on their website. The browser picks up the country location and puts the agreement in the proper language. The customer cannot download updates unless they read and agree.

    The bottom line, for me, is fairness. Plain and simple. I don't like to hear that it's the customers' responsibility to learn English so they can understand the agreement. If a company wants the customers' business then they should do everything in their power to be fair with all of their customers or refrain from doing business in non English speaking countries.

    Post edited by Jazzmin on
  • ColdrakeColdrake Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Jazzmin said:

    My point is that it should be available in different languages, so that the non English speaking customers understand what they are agreeing to.


    How many and which languages should it be available in? There are roughly 6500 different languages spoken in the world today, not to mention thousands of dialects.


    Coldrake

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