Weight map, one fits all is bad

Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
edited January 2013 in The Commons

Every Daz character I have, seems to use the default genesis weight map.

What is the point of weight mapping when even the vendor doesn't tackle it.

Editing a weight map is a very confusing vocation. Joint parameter name, would be better than X,Y,Z used in weight map tool.

Post edited by Rayman29 on

Comments

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    what problems are you having? what daz characters are you using?

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited January 2013

    Using V5,M5,T5. Weight map appears to be the same, particularly massive laterals when arms are raised above the head.

    Post edited by Rayman29 on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    what problems are you having? I've got everything but T5 (s5 maybe?) and I haven't had any serious issues with the rigging. The shoulders a a bit strange in some poses but that's how genesis is too so oh well. when do you issues appear and what are they? Do you have screen shots?

    not trying to be a pain, just curious.

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Weight map appears to be the same, particularly massive laterals when arms are raised above the head.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,976
    edited December 1969

    You don't edit Genesis' weightmap. You aren't able to save the changes. You can create JCMs and adjust rigging for it.

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    If thats the case, what is the point of the weight map tool.

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 2,629
    edited December 1969

    Rayman29 said:
    If thats the case, what is the point of the weight map tool.

    To make maps for original figures

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,258
    edited December 1969

    RawArt said:
    Rayman29 said:
    If thats the case, what is the point of the weight map tool.

    To make maps for original figures

    And things like clothing...

    It is part of the Content Creation tools.

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Agreed, We can save changes to weight maps.

    My original question remains. Do all Daz genesis morphs use the same weight map?

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,768
    edited December 1969

    as i understand M5 came with his own rigging, my guess is Stephanie does too. I know mavka has a ton of JCM's that Smay put into her. So vendors are tweaking the rigging as needed.

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I think few have used the weight map tool. Its too confusing with its x,y,z instead of the joint parameter names, bend,twist.....etc. It needs to be changed.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,976
    edited December 1969

    Rayman29 said:
    Agreed, We can save changes to weight maps.

    My original question remains. Do all Daz genesis morphs use the same weight map?

    Like I said before. You cannot make changes to Genesis' weightmap. All characters are based on genesis, thus use the same weightmap. If you don't like the way something bends, you make a JCM or adjust rigging.

    Not sure how I can be clearer.

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Well you can save changes. Just edit the map and save as scene or character. I'm sure we could also save as an asset, although I haven't tried.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,976
    edited January 2013

    Rayman29 said:
    Well you can save changes. Just edit the map and save as scene or character. I'm sure we could also save as an asset, although I haven't tried.

    That's not how it's done, and you can't. If you could, you risk messing up all of the movements in your morphs in genesis.

    So don't do it.

    Edit: See, this is why I don't answer too many questions. Someone asks, you give them the answer, then they want to spend a half hour arguing with you. If you knew the answer, why did you start this thread?

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited January 2013

    Sorry, didn't intend to cross.
    But as I have said, JCMs aside. Do all original Daz Genesis morphs use the same weight map?
    Edit:- More to the point, if they do why? Its similar to selling a custom texture map with a generic displacement/bump map.

    Post edited by Rayman29 on
  • TheNathanParableTheNathanParable Posts: 674
    edited January 2013

    Rayman29 said:
    Sorry, didn't intend to cross. But as I have said, do all original daz morphs use the same weight map?

    Yes.

    You've just been told that.

    Not just Daz morphs, but all morphs. Just like every other Poser/Daz figure in existence, the weight map doesn't change when you use a full body morph. It's just not possible. That's why we have JCMs.

    Post edited by TheNathanParable on
  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited January 2013

    So I upload a weight mapped morph, some one installs it. And they only have the default genesis weight map? That seems messed up.

    Post edited by Rayman29 on
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Posts: 348
    edited December 1969

    Rayman29 said:
    So I upload a weight mapped morph, some one installs it. And they only have the default genesis weight map? That seems messed up.

    You've got it all wrong. Let me explain it this way:

    Genesis is a humanoid figure with a weight map that describes in general how humanoid figures bend. The new Daz Horse is an equine figure with a weight map to describe how equine figures bend in general..

    Now let us say I create a very skinny young humanoid character for Genesis like the Teens 5. It is still Genesis and it is still a humanoid character so it will use the weight map assigned to humanoid figures. But because the proportions are drastically different than the original Genesis figure I now notice that in some places my skinny young teen do not bend as well as they should. I DO NOT CHANGE THE WEIGHT MAP! I can't because the weight map describes how all humanoid figures should bend and if I change it I end up breaking every character based on Genesis.

    What I can do and what is done is practice is make corrections to problem areas via a modelling tool like for example ZBrush. So lets say for example when the arms are raised it looks not quite right. The model is exported and the problem is fixed and a morph is created. But I can't have the user fiddle with morphs every time he wants to raise the arms so I plugin my correction morph into the figure by creating a JCM (Joint Controller Morph). So now when you raise the arms the fix morph is applied automatically and the end user never even knows it was fixed.

    If I wanted to create a Zebra fowl I would do exactly the same but this time the bending would be described by the new Daz Horse weight map as that is the one created for all equine figures based on said horse.

    So to repeat again what everyone else was saying. Weight maps have nothing to do with character morphs. Zip. Nada. Zero. They are only there to describe how a newly created STAND ALONE BASE FIGURE would behave.

    As for saving weight maps, just because it's possible to do something does not make it a good idea. You'll end up breaking more things than it's worth.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,588
    edited December 1969

    Well explained.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,404
    edited January 2013

    Yes, all Genesis shapes use the Genesis weight maps as there's no way to dynamically change them - unlike the joint centres, which can be changed. of course you can edit any weight map and save the result (ideally to a new figure, if you are customising the maps to give better results with an extreme morph) but as noted, you are likely to find that you then have to edit the weight maps on all clothing too - negating one of the benefits of Genesis, that one set of clothes will work on everything (to a degree, in the case of things like Anubis or the troll). Of course it would be nice if weight maps could be made to adjust in response to morphs, though I can see all sorts of difficulties in that for content creation.

    Edit: oops, didn't see there was a second page when I wrote my reply.

    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 9,395
    edited December 1969

    what is a jcm?

  • jmperjmper Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Novica said:
    what is a jcm?

    Joint Controlled Morphs

  • dan.shivedan.shive Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Leave it to Harry Dresden to step in and save the day.

  • rogerbenrogerben Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Let me explain it this way:

    Thank you muchly for that, BTW. You successfully explained several things that have eluded me for months.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    now we can not change weight-map about each character.

    But I understand and feel simpathiy what he hope, because I hope weight-map preset about each character
    or hope to customize and save it by user.:roll:

    It is future request,, but I think if we can ERC freeze weight-map
    for character morph as same as property in future.

    when wear clothing, I may need new weight-preset for the character too.
    (simply change weight-map data)

    but I think most of them can auto-transfer by picking up delta, genesis weight-map and
    character weight-map to the clothing, as same as auto-generated morph.
    (the basic principle seems same I think)

    and I believe variable weight map must need to keep good shaping when pozing about many character.

    there is limitation, even though making jcm about each rotation, but
    when mixing rotation, it often work not perfect.
    we need so many jcm to correct shape,, to adjust shape perfect,,
    between 0 to 45, 45to 90 etc.

    and I hope,, if only buldge map can change,, about each characte it seems big progress.
    ( I feel if we can change about buldge map pos value, and save it by ERC freeze,, for each character,,?)

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 1,976
    edited December 1969

    Like richard said above, you change the weightmap per character, you'll most likely destroy the capability of clothing working between characters, not to mention the mixing capabilities of genesis. That's why there's only one weightmap, and you use JCMs for tweaking.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    of course,, Male-M3dia is right. but I understand what you said already.

    I said future request ^^;

    I know, when weight map of character change,, clothing weight map of character need changing too.
    but I feel, if changing weight-map destory mixing character capability ,
    actually now genesis have not true mxing capability.

    it is same. make weight-map for genesis zero shape or, make weight-map for character shape.
    afterward we need JCM to adjust weight map defomation for other character.

    about product,, they make JCM for the genesis one weight-map,, and make clothing, by transfer weight from genesis,
    after that,, adjust weight-map which can fit for genesis zero shape,, then make JCM for each character.

    so they can not fit when genesis weight-map change. no one hope to re make every JCM and transfer again. I understand.

    but it seems simple,, when hope to use the original genesis weight
    use it. and when hope to use another weight for the character, apply it. do not you think so?

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