To all Poser users

24

Comments

  • rebelgraphxrebelgraphx Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    I think Daz has ben more than reasonable with their gen4 support. Hell, most come from vendors anyway. Remember some companies do a full "we do not support previous versions". EG microsoft who stopped Win XP support and forced win7 on us. Now we all love win7 and dont wanna move to win8 lol

    And - go to Rendo and look at how many products arn't even tested in DS let alone supported.

    I can't run get Poser 9 to install on my computer and when I tried Poser 8 I was amazed at how much stuff I couldn't do that I could in DS, and if I did want to do it I had to buy a plug in, (which I would have to buy again for Poser9).

    I understand the OP's frustration but I'm tired of seeing threads damming Daz for supporting their products as if this is some sort of unforgivable sin.

    I use Poser and without buying all kinds of plugins I get my images done, don't know what kind of things Studio can do that Poser can't so I won't comment on that.
    Rendo always was a store for Poser stuff like Daz was when they began. The difference between those stores is that at Daz we pay for a membership and that should benefit both Poser and Daz studio users equally.
    And as for the threads, I think that in a community it is everyones right to ventilate their frustrations when they think they are pushed aside.

  • ChristenChristen Posts: 218
    edited December 1969

    The difference is Daz has always made Poser content and started out doing that. If Daz had never been a huge source for Poser content Genesis would not be an issue.

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 946
    edited December 1969

    I'm not a Poser user, but I use Carrara. Daz is trying to get Genesis into Carrara, but it's in beta. It may take awhile and some of us may not make the jump, so I understand where a lot of you are coming from.


    It is funny to me that when people lament the lack of new items in Poser from Daz, someone always runs in and talks about 1 or 2 items that were released a month ago or some such thing.


    There is an obvious move away from Gen4. I place no particular value judgement on it. It just is.


    I do wish Daz hadn't made Genesis such a radical departure from Gen4 products.


    Oh well, spilled milk.


    I can buy the items from Daz I don't have and also shop at Rendo and other shops.
    Best of Luck!

  • backgroundbackground Posts: 45
    edited June 2012

    Genesis is not the issue, it is a response to many many user requests for a better and more flexible figure. Those requests were on this forum and many others including Rendo and RDNA.

    If Poser supported Genesis then the Genesis items here would be as useful to poser users as they are to DAZ4 users.

    The owners of Poser chose not to include support for the Genesis figure, a decision which affected all Poser users. That is where your issue lies. If you want to complain to a store that your interests as a customer are not being served, then my best advice would be to head over to the Poser forum at RDNA, and petition Smith Micro to add Genesis support into Poser.

    Post edited by background on
  • kylumikylumi Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Genesis is not the issue, it is a response to many many user requests for a better and more flexible figure. Those requests were on this forum and many others including Rendo and RDNA.

    If Poser supported Genesis then the Genesis items here would be as useful to poser users as they are to DAZ4 users.

    The owners of Poser chose not to include support for the Genesis figure, a decision which affected all Poser users. That is where your issue lies. If you want to complain to a store that your interests as a customer are not being served, then my best advice would be to head over to the Poser forum at RDNA, and petition Smith Micro to add Genesis support into Poser.


    That's a very valid observation.

  • Bernard AdamsBernard Adams Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    To start with, I am using OSX 10.7 and have had good results with DS4. Not everything works but the same goes with my Poser program. But at least I'll have access to those items when Apple and DAZ finally get everything to work with the UNIX root system.
    Secondly, a store (and DAZ is a store first and foremost) can't carry everything. If they try, they become nothing more than a clone of WALMART.
    Finally, customers are important unless they're walking into Jack-in-the-Box and trying to get everything scattered, smothered, covered and diced. Or going into the Wafflehouse and trying to order a jumbo Jack and curly fries.

    Maybe instead of tearing down a company that is doing the best they can, you should go to the right venues for the products you want. In fact, after I check a couple more threads, I'll be off to SM to spend some money before checking in at Cheetah and Autodesk.

    HAPPY RENDERING!!!

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 946
    edited December 1969

    Genesis is not the issue, it is a response to many many user requests for a better and more flexible figure. Those requests were on this forum and many others including Rendo and RDNA.

    I disagree. Genesis is very much the issue. Daz should not have created a figure that was so far removed from all the current technology. It has been proven that a better more flexible figure can be created without radical departures (see the many new items available at Renderosity for V4).


    Anyway, spilled milk.

  • jmperjmper Posts: 0
    edited June 2012

    Secondly, a store (and DAZ is a store first and foremost) can't carry everything. If they try, they become nothing more than a clone of WALMART.
    Finally, customers are important unless they're walking into Jack-in-the-Box and trying to get everything scattered, smothered, covered and diced. Or going into the Wafflehouse and trying to order a jumbo Jack and curly fries.

    Actually, a more correct analogy would be going to your favorite store and being told they don't serve what you want anymore.
    Daz has always been stringent on quality and did not accept bulk crap like some other stores thus they have never been close to becoming a Walmart.

    Poser products was first and foremost for many years prior to the changeover.

    Customers apparently are not all that important since I don't really spend any money here anymore.

    Post edited by jmper on
  • ZaarinZaarin Posts: 385
    edited December 1969

    Two things people tend to forget, I think;

    One, DAZ has tried working with Smith Micro (the current developers of Poser) to get Genesis working in Poser. SM chose not to continue with that effort, however.


    At least that's the way DAZ tells it. I get the impression it was more along the lines of DAZ saying to SM, "Here's our shiny new toy! Redesign your program to work with it!"

    As to vendor support, I get the impression DAZ is being a bit discriminatory to Poser products, though. For example, (please note that this is only my observation and opinion and is not based on any insider information), one of my favorite vendors, Surreality, is well-known to be a primarily Poser-using and -supporting vendor. Traditionally, she sold most of her characters here at DAZ and most of her hair textures at Rendo. However, her past four (five?) characters have all been released at Rendo. It may very well be that this is her own choice or preference, or it may have nothing to do with Genesis vs Poser (I know that DAZ was giving her a hard time before because her characters were too unique). Still, it is interesting to note that her last released character here was for both Genesis and V4, and since then all her V4 characters have been released at Rendo. Once again, I want to emphasize that I have heard nothing from Surreality on this point; this is merely my own speculation.

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 1,544
    edited June 2012

    Zaarin said:
    Two things people tend to forget, I think;

    One, DAZ has tried working with Smith Micro (the current developers of Poser) to get Genesis working in Poser. SM chose not to continue with that effort, however.


    At least that's the way DAZ tells it. I get the impression it was more along the lines of DAZ saying to SM, "Here's our shiny new toy! Redesign your program to work with it!"

    As to vendor support, I get the impression DAZ is being a bit discriminatory to Poser products, though. For example, (please note that this is only my observation and opinion and is not based on any insider information), one of my favorite vendors, Surreality, is well-known to be a primarily Poser-using and -supporting vendor. Traditionally, she sold most of her characters here at DAZ and most of her hair textures at Rendo. However, her past four (five?) characters have all been released at Rendo. It may very well be that this is her own choice or preference, or it may have nothing to do with Genesis vs Poser (I know that DAZ was giving her a hard time before because her characters were too unique). Still, it is interesting to note that her last released character here was for both Genesis and V4, and since then all her V4 characters have been released at Rendo. Once again, I want to emphasize that I have heard nothing from Surreality on this point; this is merely my own speculation.

    If DAZ wasn't accepting Gen 4 products then neither myself nor IgnisSerpentus would be able to sell here and would both be on Rendo or RDNA as well. As for Sur's choices on why etc, that would be for to Sur to answer as to her reasons.


    Speaking for myself, as someone who tries to support both I am finding myself frustrated. And this may be the first official harsh thing I've ever posted here in the forums so hopefully you all take it as me just speaking for myself as a PA and also will forgive me this one possibly short remark...


    Do you know how frustrating it is right now to try to support this or that just to have customers on both sides complain how there is nothing for them? Do something supporting Poser, then read 500 threads how no one is bothering to support Poser. Then make a pack that can be used in both but that is not "optimized" to be used as best it could with Genesis because you want the DS and Poser versions to be the same or close and have Genesis people complain it is not done as properly as it should be. At this point, as a PA doing any product, it's like no matter what you do your wrong. If trying to keep everyone happy leads to no one happy then there isn't much choice then to "choose a side". At least then 1/2 of your customers might be happy :(


    People are mad at DAZ3D for this or Smith Micro for that, but honestly the only people feeling the blunt of this tug of war are the PA's who are caught in the middle of choices they had nothing to do with on either side. That's all I'm gonna say :(

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • ssgbryanssgbryan Posts: 699
    edited December 1969

    Zaarin said:
    Two things people tend to forget, I think;

    One, DAZ has tried working with Smith Micro (the current developers of Poser) to get Genesis working in Poser. SM chose not to continue with that effort, however.


    At least that's the way DAZ tells it. I get the impression it was more along the lines of DAZ saying to SM, "Here's our shiny new toy! Redesign your program to work with it!"

    As to vendor support, I get the impression DAZ is being a bit discriminatory to Poser products, though. For example, (please note that this is only my observation and opinion and is not based on any insider information), one of my favorite vendors, Surreality, is well-known to be a primarily Poser-using and -supporting vendor. Traditionally, she sold most of her characters here at DAZ and most of her hair textures at Rendo. However, her past four (five?) characters have all been released at Rendo. It may very well be that this is her own choice or preference, or it may have nothing to do with Genesis vs Poser (I know that DAZ was giving her a hard time before because her characters were too unique). Still, it is interesting to note that her last released character here was for both Genesis and V4, and since then all her V4 characters have been released at Rendo. Once again, I want to emphasize that I have heard nothing from Surreality on this point; this is merely my own speculation.

    If DAZ wasn't accepting Gen 4 products then neither myself nor IgnisSerpentus would be able to sell here and would both be on Rendo or RDNA as well. As for Sur's choices on why etc, that would be for to Sur to answer as to her reasons.


    Speaking for myself, as someone who tries to support both I am finding myself frustrated. And this may be the first official harsh thing I've ever posted here in the forums so hopefully you all take it as me just speaking for myself as a PA and also will forgive me this one possibly short remark...


    Do you know how frustrating it is right now to try to support this or that just to have customers on both sides complain how there is nothing for them? Do something supporting Poser, then read 500 threads how no one is bothering to support Poser. Then make a pack that can be used in both but that is not "optimized" to be used as best it could with Genesis because you want the DS and Poser versions to be the same or close and have Genesis people complain it is not done as properly as it should be. At this point, as a PA doing any product, it's like no matter what you do your wrong. If trying to keep everyone happy leads to no one happy then there isn't much choice then to "choose a side". At least then 1/2 of your customers might be happy :(


    People are mad at DAZ3D for this or Smith Micro for that, but honestly the only people feeling the blunt of this tug of war are the PA's who are caught in the middle of choices they had nothing to do with on either side. That's all I'm gonna say :(

    Sell the Genesis version here and the V4 version elseswhere, along with a GNDA2 version. Cover all markets.

  • ChristenChristen Posts: 218
    edited June 2012

    Daz's fault or SM's fault I do not care. Everyone has an opinion on who is to blame, but that is beside the point now. Doing something that alienates at least half of your paying customers is the point. I really don't understand why DS users find all of this so hard to understand. If Genesis or V5/M5 would not have worked with DS you would have just as much of a problem with it as we are now. Or maybe if Daz decided to stop updating DS, and only made Poser content from now on?

    ETA: This was not aimed at you Ann, but to previous posts.

    Post edited by Christen on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,849
    edited December 1969

    We have had to remove a number of posts from this thread as they went beyond the limits of reasonable debate. We do not wish to stifle all discussion, but if the thread's tone does not improve markedly it will be locked

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 946
    edited December 1969

    If DAZ wasn't accepting Gen 4 products then neither myself nor IgnisSerpentus would be able to sell here and would both be on Rendo or RDNA as well. As for Sur's choices on why etc, that would be for to Sur to answer as to her reasons.


    Speaking for myself, as someone who tries to support both I am finding myself frustrated. And this may be the first official harsh thing I've ever posted here in the forums so hopefully you all take it as me just speaking for myself as a PA and also will forgive me this one possibly short remark...

    Daz_ann0314


    I guess we don't say THANK YOU enough to the vendors that still support Gen4. So, I will say it. Thank You.


    Your support allows people who use Poser, Carrara, and older versions of Daz, a chance to have great new products. Keep up the good work. You are appreciated, even if you don't hear it enough.

    :-)

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 1,544
    edited December 1969

    ssgbryan said:

    Sell the Genesis version here and the V4 version elseswhere, along with a GNDA2 version. Cover all markets.

    Why would I need to do that? I can sell both versions here with no problems on the brokering side of it. Why should I start selling my Poser content elsewhere when DAZ3D has always and are still taking Poser Content from me happily with no problems? It's like penalizing DAZ3D for something they haven't done.


    They made Genesis sure, but they also made Steph Petite, and V4 etc before that and SM has made Miki etc. Seems to me DAZ3D made a figure as they have always done. Nothing more and nothing less. SM does the same. I am sure their next versions SM releases wont work in DS just like Genesis isn't working as we would like in Poser. It's how it goes. Some things I buy only work in one app or another like my Vue content I buy on Cornucopia that I can't use in Poser or DS. It is the way these things work as companies find and go their own ways. That's what innovation does...it finds it's own path. Poser and DS's paths went the same way for awhile now on BOTH sides they have gone their own way. Why one company or the other is more wrong for choosing their own company's business path I honestly don't know. To me it makes no sense. It's like telling me why can't I be more like Stonemason. No matter what I can't be and DAZ can't be Smith Micro or visa versa either.

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,833
    edited December 1969

    Faerydae said:
    Daz's fault or SM's fault I do not care. Everyone has an opinion on who is to blame, but that is beside the point now. Doing something that alienates at least half of your paying customers is the point. I really don't understand why DS users find all of this so hard to understand. If Genesis or V5/M5 would not have worked with DS you would have just as much of a problem with it as we are now. Or maybe if Daz decided to stop updating DS, and only made Poser content from now on?

    ETA: This was not aimed at you Ann, but to previous posts.


    Yes but thats not how it is. As a DS user I don't have a problem with Poser users feeling frustrated but why constantly harp on at Daz.
    What do you want Daz to do drop all Genesis support - why should they.

    @ Ann I'm sorry to hear how you feel but I'm not surprised, its an awkward situation (to say the least) for PA's and it seems a shame that you feel pushed to take sides.

    If that is you being harsh then what ever are you like when you are being extra sweet.

  • backgroundbackground Posts: 45
    edited December 1969

    Faerydae said:
    Daz's fault or SM's fault I do not care. Everyone has an opinion on who is to blame, but that is beside the point now. Doing something that alienates at least half of your paying customers is the point. I really don't understand why DS users find all of this so hard to understand. If Genesis or V5/M5 would not have worked with DS you would have just as much of a problem with it as we are now. Or maybe if Daz decided to stop updating DS, and only made Poser content from now on?

    ETA: This was not aimed at you Ann, but to previous posts.

    I understand your frustration, I just don't agree with your opinion on where the problem is, and therefore where the complaints should be directed. I don't believe you can expect one company ( DAZ ) to shelve the results of a lot of development work, because another company ( SM ) choose not to adopt it.

    The current situation is similar to complaining to your local music store that you can't play CD's on your gramophone, so would they please stop selling them, and stick to vinyl.

  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 1,544
    edited June 2012

    tsarist said:
    If DAZ wasn't accepting Gen 4 products then neither myself nor IgnisSerpentus would be able to sell here and would both be on Rendo or RDNA as well. As for Sur's choices on why etc, that would be for to Sur to answer as to her reasons.


    Speaking for myself, as someone who tries to support both I am finding myself frustrated. And this may be the first official harsh thing I've ever posted here in the forums so hopefully you all take it as me just speaking for myself as a PA and also will forgive me this one possibly short remark...

    Daz_ann0314


    I guess we don't say THANK YOU enough to the vendors that still support Gen4. So, I will say it. Thank You.


    Your support allows people who use Poser, Carrara, and older versions of Daz, a chance to have great new products. Keep up the good work. You are appreciated, even if you don't hear it enough.

    :-)

    Thanks that was sweet of you to say :)


    It isn't about needing fan fair or anything or even a thank you (I mean I am in business and I make business choices...smart business is to try as best you can to keep as many customers happy as you can as you move forward though sometimes that isn't always possible) so no need to thank a PA for doing that, it's part of their business to listen and consider etc.


    It's more about being made to feel utterly invisible. There are a LOT of PAs who have picked up the torch of supporting both apps but in doing so (at least in these threads) it seems like it has gone virtually un-noticed. There is always some reason why it's irrelevant. Oh they are just rehashing this or that, oh its fantasy clothes for Poser and I wanted realistic clothes. Its for V4 and I wanted M4 so therefore it doesnt count as supporting Poser. :( See what I mean. Read these threads and as a PA all you can conclude is no matter what you're doing it's wrong. And not because you're actually doing anything wrong but just because people are hurt and upset that Genesis exists at all. No matter what for Gen 4 gets released because Genesis is here and will be, it seems at least to me, that any Gen 4 support here will never feel "good enough" to offset the fact that not "everything" works in Poser.


    As someone who only renders in Poser (other then a promo here or there) I can understand being frustrated that you can't use something that gets released because it won't work in one app or the other. I get that (I totally loved the fantasy pack for the Super Suit but alas won't get to render with it cuz it doesn't work in Poser...so I do get the frustration) What I can't seem to get is how that erases all the other products that do work in Poser :(

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • ChristenChristen Posts: 218
    edited June 2012

    Faerydae said:
    Daz's fault or SM's fault I do not care. Everyone has an opinion on who is to blame, but that is beside the point now. Doing something that alienates at least half of your paying customers is the point. I really don't understand why DS users find all of this so hard to understand. If Genesis or V5/M5 would not have worked with DS you would have just as much of a problem with it as we are now. Or maybe if Daz decided to stop updating DS, and only made Poser content from now on?

    ETA: This was not aimed at you Ann, but to previous posts.


    Yes but thats not how it is. As a DS user I don't have a problem with Poser users feeling frustrated but why constantly harp on at Daz.
    What do you want Daz to do drop all Genesis support - why should they.

    @ Ann I'm sorry to hear how you feel but I'm not surprised, its an awkward situation (to say the least) for PA's and it seems a shame that you feel pushed to take sides.

    If that is you being harsh then what ever are you like when you are being extra sweet.




    No, I do not want Daz to drop Genesis support. I have said a number of times that I am happy Genesis users are getting support for it. I would want support for it too if I were able to use it. What I (and I think most of us) want is just the same support we had before Genesis was unleashed. That's all.


    If what's been said about the vendors choosing what figure/platform they want to support and what's being released has nothing to do with input from Daz, fine. If something compatible with Poser comes out that I am interested here I'll buy it. If not, I'll just go elsewhere.


    I am thankful to the PA's that are still supporting us, and am sorry that Ann (and possibly others) are feeling the heat for the Genesis & Poser issues. I don't think it was anyone's intention in all of this.

    Post edited by Christen on
  • DAZ_ann0314DAZ_ann0314 Posts: 1,544
    edited June 2012

    Faerydae said:
    [
    If what's been said about the vendors choosing what figure/platform they want to support and what's being released has nothing to do with input from Daz, fine. If something compatible with Poser comes out that I am interested here I'll buy it. If not, I'll just go elsewhere.


    I am thankful to the PA's that are still supporting us, and am sorry that Ann (and possibly others) are feeling the heat for the Genesis & Poser issues. I don't think it was anyone's intention in all of this.

    I don't think anyone intends it. It's just what is happening as a result is all but it was worth saying because it's kinda a silent killer in all this. Hard to get inspired or want to support either app with all the friction on the topic. At least it has been for me. I can't speak for others. As for vendors choosing what they support, they have always had that choice. When Genesis first came out, they did encourage PA's to try it out (we are just as adverse to trying new things as anyone else LOL) Never has it been said they wouldn't take, dislike, won't give newsletters to, or would prefer sets for one figure or one app over another beyond the initial "try it, you may like it and it could open the door to trying new things you couldn't before" type statements.


    A little off topic, those statements are true, Genesis does open the door to certain creativity I can't currently explore in Poser (something I really hope changes). The thing I personally find most interesting and with loads of potential is the Geografting (SP?) as that does open up certain unexplored territory (something I would love to experiment with but have not because it doesn't work in Poser).


    Back to topic, I know Barb has released two Poser packs with no Genesis support (one of which got a full spread in the newsletter) and one with limited Genesis Support and has more coming (I would say how many but I think I let that be a surprise) and has had no issues getting those packs in the store. For me, I've released two packs character wise that supported both and then props etc that also support both (in total like 10 products probably) and have not had any issues. If tomorrow I uploaded a Poser Only pack, DAZ3D may say "It would be nice if you added Genesis Support" but they wouldn't say I must. I know they haven't with Barb (Ignis) either. For some PA's though, I am sure they are feeling pressure or stress on what to do just in general so sometimes saying "hey could you" translates into so much more then that when your stressed out just as customers saying there is nothing for Poser translates to "your packs don't count...they are irrelevant" for me...if that makes sense. We are all just a little overstressed on this topic I think. So any comment is being taken very to heart. Every release that is for one app or the other is taken to "mean something more" What the solution is at this point IDK. You can't uninvent the wheel. All you can do is hope more cars will adopt them or that for those that don't want wheels, people keep creating alternative transportation :)


    Additionally on this topic, beings I work for DAZ3D as a regular employee as well, if all they wanted were those who love "Daz Studio" then I would be the last person they would ever hire or keep in their employee as I am very stubborn and adamant about loving Poser over DAZ Studio. I post frequently about my preference and to make it worst when I post I do so with that DAZ_ in front of my name. Never have I been asked not to, forced to use DS, or any other such thing. If anything they have been more then understanding as to my preferences. This company is a company of artists. They understand each artist has to pick the tools of the trade that works best for them. You can't force someone who prefers watercolors to paint with acrylics and expect the work and outcome to be the same. They understand this.

    Post edited by DAZ_ann0314 on
  • ChristenChristen Posts: 218
    edited December 1969

    Faerydae said:
    [
    If what's been said about the vendors choosing what figure/platform they want to support and what's being released has nothing to do with input from Daz, fine. If something compatible with Poser comes out that I am interested here I'll buy it. If not, I'll just go elsewhere.


    I am thankful to the PA's that are still supporting us, and am sorry that Ann (and possibly others) are feeling the heat for the Genesis & Poser issues. I don't think it was anyone's intention in all of this.

    I don't think anyone intends it. It's just what is happening as a result is all but it was worth saying because it's kinda a silent killer in all this. Hard to get inspired or want to support either app with all the friction on the topic. At least it has been for me. I can't speak for others. As for vendors choosing what they support, they have always had that choice. When Genesis first came out, they did encourage PA's to try it out (we are just as adverse to trying new things as anyone else LOL) Never has it been said they wouldn't take, dislike, won't give newsletters to, or would prefer sets for one figure or one app over another beyond the initial "try it, you may like it and it could open the door to trying new things you couldn't before" type statements.


    A little off topic, those statements are true, Genesis does open the door to certain creativity I can't currently explore in Poser (something I really hope changes). The thing I personally find most interesting and with loads of potential is the Geografting (SP?) as that does open up certain unexplored territory (something I would love to experiment with but have not because it doesn't work in Poser).


    Back to topic, I know Barb has released two Poser packs with no Genesis support (one of which got a full spread in the newsletter) and one with limited Genesis Support and has more coming (I would say how many but I think I let that be a surprise) and has had no issues getting those packs in the store. For me, I've released two packs character wise that supported both and then props etc that also support both (in total like 10 products probably) and have not had any issues. If tomorrow I uploaded a Poser Only pack, DAZ3D may say "It would be nice if you added Genesis Support" but they wouldn't say I must. I know they haven't with Barb (Ignis) either. For some PA's though, I am sure they are feeling pressure or stress on what to do just in general so sometimes saying "hey could you" translates into so much more then that when your stressed out just as customers saying there is nothing for Poser translates to "your packs don't count...they are irrelevant" for me...if that makes sense. We are all just a little overstressed on this topic I think. So any comment is being taken very to heart. Every release that is for one app or the other is taken to "mean something more" What the solution is at this point IDK. You can't uninvent the wheel. All you can do is hope more cars will adopt them or that for those that don't want wheels, people keep creating alternative transportation :)


    Additionally on this topic, beings I work for DAZ3D as a regular employee as well, if all they wanted were those who love "Daz Studio" then I would be the last person they would ever hire or keep in their employee as I am very stubborn and adamant about loving Poser over DAZ Studio. I post frequently about my preference and to make it worst when I post I do so with that DAZ_ in front of my name. Never have I been asked not to, forced to use DS, or any other such thing. If anything they have been more then understanding as to my preferences. This company is a company of artists. They understand each artist has to pick the tools of the trade that works best for them. You can't force someone who prefers watercolors to paint with acrylics and expect the work and outcome to be the same. They understand this.

    Good to know it's a choice. It would be a lot worse (to me anyways) if the slow down of Poser support was a direct push from Daz. While I won't say there has been no Poser support, I think at this point it's fair to say that Poser support has dropped significantly. I still shop here if something is released that will work with Poser (out of the box) and it's something I have use for. You're right you can't uninvent the wheel, but it would be nice to have something we can use as well, and not just a handful of things in a few months.


    It's a shame everything has turned out the way it has. I'll keep an eye out for yours and Barb's new toys though :)

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 16,069
    edited December 1969

    I have Poser 2010 and Poser 9

    I'd really like to get Poser 2012


    ...I have 2012 but haven't used it much since I am waiting for the .zip installers to go live so I can build custom runtimes.

    ...have been working with 2010 however, and find even on my nearly 6 year old notebook, it works pretty well (as long as I don't try to use the .cr2 exporter). Just need to get the hang of the lighting system more as I am so spoiled by being able to view through a light as if it were a camera in Daz Studio.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 16,069
    edited December 1969

    I was hoping to get it how I get most of my software, win it in a contest

    ...that's how I got p8 which allowed me to upgrade to 2010 and later 2012 for ridiculously low prices.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 16,069
    edited December 1969

    twingo said:
    I use Poser and without buying all kinds of plugins I get my images done, don't know what kind of things Studio can do that Poser can't so I won't comment on that.

    ...I first "signed on" with Daz for that very reason. When I got into this I couldn't see dropping 250$ (the price for P6 at the time) not knowing if I would really like it. Daz gave me the full application and a nice content starter pack for free, not some hamstrung limited time demo like most other software does. Furthermore, there was the Freebie vault, Weekly freebies and of course Rendo and ShareCG which gave me a lot to work with.


    Yes, it cost more in the long term having to purchase plugins and add-ons, but at the time, on my budget, it was easier to manage than having to pony up a large sum in advance (which is why I use PSP and Gimp instead of PS).


    As to Plugins, to make the basic versions of Poser to really shine still required extra products such as lighting sets as well as surface and even rendering enhancements.


    I will admit I do like several of the features of 2010 like the ability to create dynamic cloth/hair and rendering in background (which is a lifesaver in 32 bit) as well as the fact it dovetails much better with MarvelousDesigner2.


    Meanwhile, I haven't been able to do much with Studio4 (and nothing with 4Pro which I have yet to install) as it does not work very well on my old 32 bit notebook (while Poser 2010 does). Once I get everything up on the new rig (as I mentioned waiting for the .zip installers for the PC platform to go live), then I will be able to see what suits my workflow the best. Most likely it will be a combination of both applications based on what I want to accomplish.


    Like LX is with Daz Studio, I am pretty much the same with Poser. Though I am slowly beginning to get a grasp of it.

  • surrealitysurreality Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Some of this is going to get a little technical, and for that I apologize. It's also going to meander a little around some interconnected points. Just getting that out of the way in advance. :) Y'all will also very quickly see why I never post: I am a shockingly long-winded person by default.


    I am also going to share a (work-safe, no worries there) link that Arien shared with me, and I've been doing my level best to spread all over the dang interwebs ever since. It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikAb-NYkseI -- and this is all delivered by a wiser and far more articulate soul than I could ever hope to be.


    Creative work is harder than most people think. This is not the kickoff to a melodramatic speech, delivered with my hand pinned to my forehead with a nail gun like some swooning Victorian maiden intent on proving martyrdom -- it's just a simple truth, stated simply. I'm not complaining about the fact that it's hard, because when it comes right down to it, everybody's work is hard. We may not like the work, we may just need money and will do any work we can, we may hate our boss, we may hate the dress code, the commute may be a nightmare -- in some way, everybody's work is genuinely and validly hard in very real ways that, at least to me, it's unfair to hand-wave away without at least giving it some consideration. That's why we call it 'work' in the first place. If the rewards weren't worth the work, we wouldn't do it. Whether those rewards come in the form of money to keep a roof over our heads in a traditional job, or in work you really love to do even if it's not bringing in big money and the roof's starting to get a little leaky, there's always some balance that needs to be struck. It's an analysis of investment vs. gain, and we all -- in any job, and really in every aspect of our lives -- have to take a look at that from time to time.


    I'm not a big forum reader. This is directly linked to the point above, and here's why: because more often than not, it actually makes my job a lot harder. Now, I know the immediate assumption here is going to be, 'well everybody has to take criticism!' but don't go jumping the gun; that's actually not the issue at all, at least not in my case. My actual goal is to do 'atypical beauties' (read: not pinup model types) and 'wow, that's kinda freaky/creepy/strange!' so I really don't expect that everybody's going to like what I'm producing from square one. If I was into the mass-market appeal thing, I'd be aiming for the pinup crowd. (And this is no slight on them at all -- so much of the work I see there is frickin' stunning.) It's just not 'me'. There's a great point in the video link above that quite accurately reflects my personal experience, and I suspect the experience of many other creative professionals. I can't do it just for the money. I have to love what I'm doing to do this at all. I have to believe in what I'm doing -- and the few times I've done something just because it seemed like that's what was selling, not only did I hate the results, but I didn't end up getting the money either. ;) This is, in part, because there really isn't a lot of money to go around in this market in the first place. Don't get me wrong: you still, if this is how you make your living, need to be smart about the balance between 'for the love' and 'can I keep the lights on this month?' -- but I'll come back to that.


    Ann mentions something very important on this point: no matter what we as content creators choose to do, it's always going to be 'the wrong thing' to a very vocal somebody. This wears you down fast, no joke, no matter how thick your skin or sturdy your armor of professionalism! This is true even if, as in my case, you don't expect everybody is going to like you to start with. That whole 'investment vs. gains' analysis described above? It starts eroding the love factor. With little money in the mix, the love has to count for a lot. Again, I'm not talking about people loving you the vendor, or even loving your work and buying it or not: I'm talking about that push to drag yourself out of bed in the morning, plant rump in chair, and start working. That's a pretty important drive for the self-employed. (OK. I will fess up to something here. I am actually a workaholic. This isn't me being funny or sarcastic; it's a sincere point. This is not normally a problem for me, personally, and had not been until quite recently. If I'm not working on -something-, I might actually explode. I haven't been brave enough to test this theory, though. It's been the case in all my previous creative jobs as well. But now y'all who have actually bought from me probably totally get why there are so very, very many MAT files. Ahem. Back to the point!)


    This is a very demanding market. Its small size, in part, contributes to the fact that direct contact with the people who make things for it is far more prevalent. Odds are, the people making the tee shirts you buy aren't as accessible. If you see a sampling of them in a store window that you don't care for, you're probably not going to go into the store, look at the labels for the manufacturer's information, and contact the manufacturer and the store to say: "I don't like your current selection. You seriously needed to make those in earth tones instead of pink, but with no hearts on them, and they should have skulls with spikes all over them or artsy flourishes instead. What were you thinking?! Do you think we're all Barbie dolls or something? And I look like I have jaundice in pink! I want my ominous crow silhouette with lightning in the background on swirlyspirals!" (This example may or may not be extracted from the scathing letter I might or might not have written in my head to Target upon realizing that all their men's tees were always so much cooler than the chick selection, but never actually wrote. I plead the fifth, but totally admit to being dressed 'like a boy' right now. *cough*) You're just going to go to another store to find what you want, because, hey, there's one just next door after all.


    Not so much the case in this market. (Bear with me again here, what I'm going to say is probably not what you think it is!)


    In this market, expressing that is far more common. The information actually can be very useful! It's actually more useful in our small market, because we don't have broad sweeping analytics or seasonal trend reports available in the way the provided example of the garment industry does that tell us, rightly or wrongly, that pink hearts are the in thing for everything with ovaries this season, and girls hate earth tones so don't even go there. The trick is how to handle the flow and apply some discernment to if and how you're going to apply the information you've been provided. In that video, there's a great bit about responding to email. That was me for a while. I had become someone who professionally read forums for a living and made content as a hobby. ;) Time management can be a huge issue, particularly when the income margins are very small, and it's another very careful balance to strike.


    As content creators, we have limits, too. Not all of us are good at everything, and it would probably surprise a lot of forum regulars to realize how often we get requests that go well beyond our limits. We have things we're good at, and we have things we know -- and we also have things we are bad at, and things we don't know. We may have tools available on the market that don't run on the computers we can't afford to replace, or on the operating system everything else we use has already been purchased for, and this is one of many problems. (As a mac user, I've commented often on this point.) Think, too, on how many people have a love-hate relationship with any given UI out there that makes learning any given piece of software anything from a truly intuitive delight to the most wretched of teeth-grinding chores. You have your preferences on these things, too, don't you?


    Going back up a tick to that point about 'if I don't believe in it, and I don't love doing it, I... can't'. Somewhere along the line, I blinked, and realized I've been doing this for over five years. I still think of myself as a newcomer. I still think of myself as a novice. I still think of myself as someone who has such a vast amount to learn that I would, could, never with a straight face call myself an expert, and brand new things to learn emerge every day to add to the list. The one thing I have learned in that time as a solid fact, and know for certain, is that I absolutely have those limits described above, and not all of them are technical. I have things I think I'm good at, and whether people actually like the result or not, the result is what I intended to create. Even if it isn't a commercial success, it is something I can call a success. If I can't look at a product and see this in it, I will not sell it. It goes into the slush pile of 'stick it back in the oven until it's done or trash it'. Going way back up to the beginning, work is hard. If someone is going to spend the money they worked hard to earn on one of my products, I firmly believe that as a creative professional it is my duty to deliver them something that I am willing and able to stand behind and say, "This is what I meant for it to be, I'm here if you have any questions about it. I really hope you enjoy using it, and it helps spark your creativity." At the end of the day, if I can't say that, I've got precisely... squat, and so does my customer, and my customer doesn't deserve that!


    What I can't deliver is 'something that suits absolutely everyone's possible needs or desires'. None of us can, even if we might want to very, very much. I know there are things that a number of people have wanted me to make that I know I can't deliver, to their standards and/or my own. For instance, no matter how many people have asked me to please make some awesome clothes that have the same strange look as my girls, I still can't model worth beans, and just the other day hopped around squealing like a kid because I finally managed to make a skullcap that didn't look like someone had turned V4's head into a spiky lightbulb after 5 years of attempts. This was progress, people! (Really, folks... I swear I did try! Frequently, even!) Similarly, I don't have the 'eye' for male skins, either. I have actually tried repeatedly, and the results... well, I'm just going to say that while I can do male morphs that don't make me cringe, on the skins, 'I didn't get so far as I did on the modeling' and I think y'all can properly extrapolate from there just how hilariously awful it always was.


    I realize people don't likely know this, or just how much 'quality control' is very internal, and how much it happens even before most vendors submit anything, anywhere. Simple truth is, when plenty of people question your competence or simple right to want to make money doing what you do since other people make things for free, you're generally not inclined to parade your failures out in public. Why? Because from many vocal poster's opinions, you're already a complete jerk for wanting to charge money for anything in the first place when other people can do this kind of work for free, or if you're not a competent landscape modeler clearly you don't deserve to be making a penny on those hair textures of yours. Plenty of others think that the moment you become a vendor you must get brought into some secret lair, possibly on a tropical island with a volcano, where you're handed a fruity frozen drink with a little umbrella in it before being strapped to a chair straight out of The Matrix and 'how to make content for every software platform, figure, in every permutation possible' is downloaded into your brain. And then someone pays you money, too! I kinda wish the latter was true, because I have a little collection of those drink umbrellas going back to when I was a kid. :( Do both of those above descriptions sound completely ridiculous? Of course they do -- but it doesn't stop them from being repeated as gospel truths frequently enough to get your head spinning. But that's why these things are generally not shown off. I'd actually love it if there was a thread some day where we could all post our spectacular failures and laugh about them, because so many of them really are amazingly funny and that kind of shared humor goes a long way to soothing the ache of the failure itself -- but you're unlikely to ever see it actually happen.


    It's no secret I prefer working in Poser. I grew up on Kai Krause style interfaces and it is considerably more intuitive to me than most other software I use as a result. DS has never run stable for me. DS4 is slightly more stable than previous versions, but it's still not anywhere near as solid as Poser for me. I could count on my fingers how many times I've crashed Poser over three versions of the software since getting this computer, and it's running constantly. I can count on my fingers how many times DS crashes on me in an hour before running out of fingers. Some folks have the completely opposite experience, and their experience is no more or less valid than mine, just as their preferences are. My experience, working in DS, though... is just not good. I am in no way saying the software is bad, or inferior, or anything like that -- I don't even think those things, so I see no reason to say them -- I'm saying that my personal experience working in it ranges from 'grinding through what I need to do' to 'someone please put me out of my misery'. Way back up to the first point again: work is hard. It's not all fun and games. In that investment vs. gains analysis, entering in the 'hard factor' vs. returns becomes necessary.


    Important note: App wars suck. They suck a whole lot. I am really tired of them and the fact that they continue endlessly also heavily saps the will to keep going. I don't even care which side someone is cheerleading for or tearing holes in, it still just sucks. Ahem. It's triply stressful when you do have a preference -- and are immediately assumed to be a frothing, blind hater of whatever the other thing is, and itching for whatever it is to go down in flames. Those of us relying on this for a living are far, far too aware that anything of the kind would be very harmful to the ability to keep doing that, and many people would probably be surprised to realize how many of us would prefer that people happily continue to use whatever they prefer, no matter what it is, in any combination they like, so long as it makes them happy. That's what I like to do -- why on earth would I not want everybody else to be able to do the same? It'd be silly, wouldn't it? I already know not everybody likes the same things I like, and mercy knows there's not enough time in the world to covert y'all even if I was for an instant inclined to try. ;)


    Here's a technical point: DS renders more slowly for me, and considerably so. To produce a thumbnail render to go with a DS preset at the standard I expect from myself, and accurately shows the qualities of the effect it is applying... each one takes 3-8 minutes to render. Seriously. Yes, even with all the tricks to speed things up applied, because I use the human surface shader, and you can best see the quality of that with good render settings and lights. I have always optimized for quality over speed, not for flashy-woo-woo shiny factor, because I believe in showing you what you are getting with that preset in that software in as much detail as possible in a 91x91 space. That 3-8 minutes is actually down from 15 or so. Really! See, I have learned some tricks. It has helped. Just not enough to make the process 'not hopelessly ponderous'. By contrast, I can do a series of IDL/SSS renders in PP2012 in under 2 minutes each... and even then I don't have to wait because I send them all to the queue to render once I get the actual preset done, so my real productivity from app to app is astonishingly different. (And now all you option junkies know to use the render queue for this. Do it, it's worth it!) Similarly, I begged and traded stuff and got another version of 'render this batch of thumbnails' as a python script from an astonishingly generous and brilliant member of our community that, from what I can tell, is proving useful to a whole lot of folks out there. (And that is seriously epic awesome; I really cannot begin to express how grateful I am for this. I still wish he'd let me give him more stuff for as useful as this has been to me.)


    There's also another troubling point to consider: once you do something, you're going to be expected to keep on doing it. If you don't believe me, look over the troubles the platinum club is experiencing. Even things announced as 'for this year only' perks in some instances have been made the standard because you can't roll back from where you've gone before -- just like DAZ with Genesis. They can't unmake it. While each individual vendor works on a much smaller scale, the same is generally expected of us: you include X once, you dang well better keep including X, or there's going to be torches and pitchforks in your immediate future. (And if your roof is already leaky, odds are the fireproofing on your secret lair is not up to code.) This isn't a matter of pressure from DAZ. I will go on record as saying, so there is no ambiguity at all, that I have not submitted anything to DAZ at all since Modern Muses: Paloma until just yesterday, so DAZ is not being a big bad meanie-monster bonking Poser-Happy-Girl (even if she's dressed like a boy) on the nose, or making a rule that says she must submit to her new Genesis overlord or perish.


    The items I did most recently for sale at DAZ, the Tamesis products that I sold to them outright, and Modern Muses: Paloma, took a truly monumental amount of time to produce. Working on those two products exclusively took well over 4 months, and I work long hours, I don't take weekends off. These products had full support for Poser 6+, Poser 9 and its new features, and also DS4. They were Gen4 and Genesis, and in Paloma's case, Gen4 and Genesis V5. Despite having the years of sales numbers right in front of me that said, 'Adding DS support to my products showed very minimal increase in sales', Genesis was a new thing, and it deserved a new chance. I was absolutely willing to give it that. In the forums, everyone was clamoring for it on the positive side where the world is bright and happy and you get that one step closer to giving the people what they want -- and still others bashing anyone who wasn't providing it and threatening to never buy from them again or blacklist them or badmouth them, and so on. So by carrot AND by stick, despite the warnings of many years of sales experience, I gave it a shot.


    I will summarize with: It did not go so well. By that I actually mean, 'the financial ramifications of that decision will haunt me for the next five years or more, and my family suffered serious problems with their mortgage in their incredibly kind attempt to bail me out just enough so I wouldn't have to go into bankruptcy'. This is entirely my personal experience. It is in no way meant to extrapolate to guess at the experience of others; like everything else, it all varies. Maybe it had a bad day. Maybe people had no money that week. Maybe Saturn aligned with Neptune and both of them decided, "We really don't like surreality, it's time for a smite-fest. Somebody zorch a few routers near Utah!" Looking at the way I work, it is entirely possible that the set I chose to do this with wasn't cool to anybody but me and wouldn't have sold well no matter what -- I own that, I accept that, and that is a risk I knowingly take when I do what I do. It is part of the 'hard' of this job. It's entirely possible choosing that in particular was a spectacularly dumb call on my part. I'm not interested in trying to assign any blame, and even if I was, I have a big hole to dig myself out of as quickly as I can that demands my attention far too much to let myself worry about any finger pointing.


    I then finished up a set inside a week for Renderosity, and... it actually brought in, in its intro period, within $1 of the one that took 8 weeks of solid dev time. $X for a week's work (and I don't label the sum because seriously, it's not pretty no matter how you slice it up) is something someone can struggle by and live on while parsing out some to pay off a bill without the lights going out. That same $X parsed out over 8 weeks of work as a return... I don't actually know if you can count it as income when it's well under fifty cents per hour. I will have to ask the accountant on that point. (Again, I really only wish I was kidding, folks.)


    Now, if you've managed to even make it this far into this novella of a post (for which I commend your endurance)... peek at that technical point again about speed. See the problem?


    There are a couple of ways to address the problem. One, I can scale down over all pack size and have DS and Genesis support included, or I can do packs of my normal size, Poser-only. While I know there are doubtless pitchforks and torches in my future for not doing enormous packs that work in Poser6/Poser9/DS3/DS4/Carrara/Blender/Octane/Reality/etc., I know that the reasonable folks out there, who are the real majority of folks reading and commenting and are even more the majority of the folks buying, will absolutely understand this decision and the necessity for it. The products with DS support will land here if DAZ wants them. The products that don't have it will be sold elsewhere and for the time being I am not even submitting them here, because with the stress of trying to keep the lights on, some of the intentionally rude comments I regularly get when I release something here without DS support are just not something I can really cope with any longer, particularly when adding DS support to hopefully make those people happy, finally, really did cost me in a very real way, and the time investment vs. financial return on DS support for me has already been historically very poor.


    ...and the last bit. Really, it's the last bit. ;) I have a backlog. I have a huge pile of 'I have almost finished that and it is going well and it needs finishing'. This isn't even counting the 'that doesn't seem to be working, so I will set it aside' pile I mentioned before. All of that backlog was designed for... the big sets. So that meant, and means, that the sets designed to be smaller, for maximum compatibility cross-app and cross-figure, needed to get mixed in to 'this is almost done and just needs kicking out the door so the bank doesn't ask for a kidney and break my kneecaps' pile of things I need to finish up and get selling that are already underway. Even for someone fairly ADD about project flow, it's been... interesting. All of that backlog is for Gen4 -- so now is the time to get it done and out there, before something else comes along, because sooner or later, something always does. There's one set coming thus far that should be landing here, yep, I snuck that little mention in a while ago, and I didn't forget it either, designed for P6, P9, and DS4, with Gen4, Genesis V4, and Genesis V5 options in the mix. We'll see how it goes.


    There are no short answers, and I really do wish I had a shorter one for everyone. With a situation as complex as things are currently, to really address what's going on, in terms of the market and in terms of my business as an individual content creator, there really is a lot of ground to cover.


    A Very Important P.S. (because I warned you already that I'm long-winded): One primary reason you see people doing genesis/gen4 crossover sets is because genesis can accept Gen4 UV-mapping. This means the textures do not need to be recreated from scratch for use from one figure to the other in most cases. You cannot presently convert Gen4 textures to GNDA in the same fashion. When I price my products, I do not price them as if I was having to do the textures twice, once for genesis, and once for Gen4. I feel this would be inappropriate. I am not an exception in this regard, either. You are NOT being 'charged a bunch extra' for genesis texture support as some frequently claim. If I was to even attempt a character textures set that was somehow inclusive of Gen4 and GNDA it would be absolutely necessary to charge for the second set of texture work I would be required to do. As a result, the price would be considerably higher than it would be for a Genesis/Gen4 set. (And I say that as someone who absolutely IS working on products for GNDA as well. :) )

  • kylumikylumi Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Some of this is going to get a little technical, and for that I apologize. It's also going to meander a little around some interconnected points. Just getting that out of the way in advance. :) Y'all will also very quickly see why I never post: I am a shockingly long-winded person by default.


    I am also going to share a (work-safe, no worries there) link that Arien shared with me, and I've been doing my level best to spread all over the dang interwebs ever since. It's here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikAb-NYkseI -- and this is all delivered by a wiser and far more articulate soul than I could ever hope to be.


    Creative work is harder than most people think. This is not the kickoff to a melodramatic speech, delivered with my hand pinned to my forehead with a nail gun like some swooning Victorian maiden intent on proving martyrdom -- it's just a simple truth, stated simply. I'm not complaining about the fact that it's hard, because when it comes right down to it, everybody's work is hard. We may not like the work, we may just need money and will do any work we can, we may hate our boss, we may hate the dress code, the commute may be a nightmare -- in some way, everybody's work is genuinely and validly hard in very real ways that, at least to me, it's unfair to hand-wave away without at least giving it some consideration. That's why we call it 'work' in the first place. If the rewards weren't worth the work, we wouldn't do it. Whether those rewards come in the form of money to keep a roof over our heads in a traditional job, or in work you really love to do even if it's not bringing in big money and the roof's starting to get a little leaky, there's always some balance that needs to be struck. It's an analysis of investment vs. gain, and we all -- in any job, and really in every aspect of our lives -- have to take a look at that from time to time.


    I'm not a big forum reader. This is directly linked to the point above, and here's why: because more often than not, it actually makes my job a lot harder. Now, I know the immediate assumption here is going to be, 'well everybody has to take criticism!' but don't go jumping the gun; that's actually not the issue at all, at least not in my case. My actual goal is to do 'atypical beauties' (read: not pinup model types) and 'wow, that's kinda freaky/creepy/strange!' so I really don't expect that everybody's going to like what I'm producing from square one. If I was into the mass-market appeal thing, I'd be aiming for the pinup crowd. (And this is no slight on them at all -- so much of the work I see there is frickin' stunning.) It's just not 'me'. There's a great point in the video link above that quite accurately reflects my personal experience, and I suspect the experience of many other creative professionals. I can't do it just for the money. I have to love what I'm doing to do this at all. I have to believe in what I'm doing -- and the few times I've done something just because it seemed like that's what was selling, not only did I hate the results, but I didn't end up getting the money either. ;) This is, in part, because there really isn't a lot of money to go around in this market in the first place. Don't get me wrong: you still, if this is how you make your living, need to be smart about the balance between 'for the love' and 'can I keep the lights on this month?' -- but I'll come back to that.


    Ann mentions something very important on this point: no matter what we as content creators choose to do, it's always going to be 'the wrong thing' to a very vocal somebody. This wears you down fast, no joke, no matter how thick your skin or sturdy your armor of professionalism! This is true even if, as in my case, you don't expect everybody is going to like you to start with. That whole 'investment vs. gains' analysis described above? It starts eroding the love factor. With little money in the mix, the love has to count for a lot. Again, I'm not talking about people loving you the vendor, or even loving your work and buying it or not: I'm talking about that push to drag yourself out of bed in the morning, plant rump in chair, and start working. That's a pretty important drive for the self-employed. (OK. I will fess up to something here. I am actually a workaholic. This isn't me being funny or sarcastic; it's a sincere point. This is not normally a problem for me, personally, and had not been until quite recently. If I'm not working on -something-, I might actually explode. I haven't been brave enough to test this theory, though. It's been the case in all my previous creative jobs as well. But now y'all who have actually bought from me probably totally get why there are so very, very many MAT files. Ahem. Back to the point!)


    This is a very demanding market. Its small size, in part, contributes to the fact that direct contact with the people who make things for it is far more prevalent. Odds are, the people making the tee shirts you buy aren't as accessible. If you see a sampling of them in a store window that you don't care for, you're probably not going to go into the store, look at the labels for the manufacturer's information, and contact the manufacturer and the store to say: "I don't like your current selection. You seriously needed to make those in earth tones instead of pink, but with no hearts on them, and they should have skulls with spikes all over them or artsy flourishes instead. What were you thinking?! Do you think we're all Barbie dolls or something? And I look like I have jaundice in pink! I want my ominous crow silhouette with lightning in the background on swirlyspirals!" (This example may or may not be extracted from the scathing letter I might or might not have written in my head to Target upon realizing that all their men's tees were always so much cooler than the chick selection, but never actually wrote. I plead the fifth, but totally admit to being dressed 'like a boy' right now. *cough*) You're just going to go to another store to find what you want, because, hey, there's one just next door after all.


    Not so much the case in this market. (Bear with me again here, what I'm going to say is probably not what you think it is!)


    In this market, expressing that is far more common. The information actually can be very useful! It's actually more useful in our small market, because we don't have broad sweeping analytics or seasonal trend reports available in the way the provided example of the garment industry does that tell us, rightly or wrongly, that pink hearts are the in thing for everything with ovaries this season, and girls hate earth tones so don't even go there. The trick is how to handle the flow and apply some discernment to if and how you're going to apply the information you've been provided. In that video, there's a great bit about responding to email. That was me for a while. I had become someone who professionally read forums for a living and made content as a hobby. ;) Time management can be a huge issue, particularly when the income margins are very small, and it's another very careful balance to strike.


    As content creators, we have limits, too. Not all of us are good at everything, and it would probably surprise a lot of forum regulars to realize how often we get requests that go well beyond our limits. We have things we're good at, and we have things we know -- and we also have things we are bad at, and things we don't know. We may have tools available on the market that don't run on the computers we can't afford to replace, or on the operating system everything else we use has already been purchased for, and this is one of many problems. (As a mac user, I've commented often on this point.) Think, too, on how many people have a love-hate relationship with any given UI out there that makes learning any given piece of software anything from a truly intuitive delight to the most wretched of teeth-grinding chores. You have your preferences on these things, too, don't you?


    Going back up a tick to that point about 'if I don't believe in it, and I don't love doing it, I... can't'. Somewhere along the line, I blinked, and realized I've been doing this for over five years. I still think of myself as a newcomer. I still think of myself as a novice. I still think of myself as someone who has such a vast amount to learn that I would, could, never with a straight face call myself an expert, and brand new things to learn emerge every day to add to the list. The one thing I have learned in that time as a solid fact, and know for certain, is that I absolutely have those limits described above, and not all of them are technical. I have things I think I'm good at, and whether people actually like the result or not, the result is what I intended to create. Even if it isn't a commercial success, it is something I can call a success. If I can't look at a product and see this in it, I will not sell it. It goes into the slush pile of 'stick it back in the oven until it's done or trash it'. Going way back up to the beginning, work is hard. If someone is going to spend the money they worked hard to earn on one of my products, I firmly believe that as a creative professional it is my duty to deliver them something that I am willing and able to stand behind and say, "This is what I meant for it to be, I'm here if you have any questions about it. I really hope you enjoy using it, and it helps spark your creativity." At the end of the day, if I can't say that, I've got precisely... squat, and so does my customer, and my customer doesn't deserve that!


    What I can't deliver is 'something that suits absolutely everyone's possible needs or desires'. None of us can, even if we might want to very, very much. I know there are things that a number of people have wanted me to make that I know I can't deliver, to their standards and/or my own. For instance, no matter how many people have asked me to please make some awesome clothes that have the same strange look as my girls, I still can't model worth beans, and just the other day hopped around squealing like a kid because I finally managed to make a skullcap that didn't look like someone had turned V4's head into a spiky lightbulb after 5 years of attempts. This was progress, people! (Really, folks... I swear I did try! Frequently, even!) Similarly, I don't have the 'eye' for male skins, either. I have actually tried repeatedly, and the results... well, I'm just going to say that while I can do male morphs that don't make me cringe, on the skins, 'I didn't get so far as I did on the modeling' and I think y'all can properly extrapolate from there just how hilariously awful it always was.


    I realize people don't likely know this, or just how much 'quality control' is very internal, and how much it happens even before most vendors submit anything, anywhere. Simple truth is, when plenty of people question your competence or simple right to want to make money doing what you do since other people make things for free, you're generally not inclined to parade your failures out in public. Why? Because from many vocal poster's opinions, you're already a complete jerk for wanting to charge money for anything in the first place when other people can do this kind of work for free, or if you're not a competent landscape modeler clearly you don't deserve to be making a penny on those hair textures of yours. Plenty of others think that the moment you become a vendor you must get brought into some secret lair, possibly on a tropical island with a volcano, where you're handed a fruity frozen drink with a little umbrella in it before being strapped to a chair straight out of The Matrix and 'how to make content for every software platform, figure, in every permutation possible' is downloaded into your brain. And then someone pays you money, too! I kinda wish the latter was true, because I have a little collection of those drink umbrellas going back to when I was a kid. :( Do both of those above descriptions sound completely ridiculous? Of course they do -- but it doesn't stop them from being repeated as gospel truths frequently enough to get your head spinning. But that's why these things are generally not shown off. I'd actually love it if there was a thread some day where we could all post our spectacular failures and laugh about them, because so many of them really are amazingly funny and that kind of shared humor goes a long way to soothing the ache of the failure itself -- but you're unlikely to ever see it actually happen.


    It's no secret I prefer working in Poser. I grew up on Kai Krause style interfaces and it is considerably more intuitive to me than most other software I use as a result. DS has never run stable for me. DS4 is slightly more stable than previous versions, but it's still not anywhere near as solid as Poser for me. I could count on my fingers how many times I've crashed Poser over three versions of the software since getting this computer, and it's running constantly. I can count on my fingers how many times DS crashes on me in an hour before running out of fingers. Some folks have the completely opposite experience, and their experience is no more or less valid than mine, just as their preferences are. My experience, working in DS, though... is just not good. I am in no way saying the software is bad, or inferior, or anything like that -- I don't even think those things, so I see no reason to say them -- I'm saying that my personal experience working in it ranges from 'grinding through what I need to do' to 'someone please put me out of my misery'. Way back up to the first point again: work is hard. It's not all fun and games. In that investment vs. gains analysis, entering in the 'hard factor' vs. returns becomes necessary.


    Important note: App wars suck. They suck a whole lot. I am really tired of them and the fact that they continue endlessly also heavily saps the will to keep going. I don't even care which side someone is cheerleading for or tearing holes in, it still just sucks. Ahem. It's triply stressful when you do have a preference -- and are immediately assumed to be a frothing, blind hater of whatever the other thing is, and itching for whatever it is to go down in flames. Those of us relying on this for a living are far, far too aware that anything of the kind would be very harmful to the ability to keep doing that, and many people would probably be surprised to realize how many of us would prefer that people happily continue to use whatever they prefer, no matter what it is, in any combination they like, so long as it makes them happy. That's what I like to do -- why on earth would I not want everybody else to be able to do the same? It'd be silly, wouldn't it? I already know not everybody likes the same things I like, and mercy knows there's not enough time in the world to covert y'all even if I was for an instant inclined to try. ;)


    Here's a technical point: DS renders more slowly for me, and considerably so. To produce a thumbnail render to go with a DS preset at the standard I expect from myself, and accurately shows the qualities of the effect it is applying... each one takes 3-8 minutes to render. Seriously. Yes, even with all the tricks to speed things up applied, because I use the human surface shader, and you can best see the quality of that with good render settings and lights. I have always optimized for quality over speed, not for flashy-woo-woo shiny factor, because I believe in showing you what you are getting with that preset in that software in as much detail as possible in a 91x91 space. That 3-8 minutes is actually down from 15 or so. Really! See, I have learned some tricks. It has helped. Just not enough to make the process 'not hopelessly ponderous'. By contrast, I can do a series of IDL/SSS renders in PP2012 in under 2 minutes each... and even then I don't have to wait because I send them all to the queue to render once I get the actual preset done, so my real productivity from app to app is astonishingly different. (And now all you option junkies know to use the render queue for this. Do it, it's worth it!) Similarly, I begged and traded stuff and got another version of 'render this batch of thumbnails' as a python script from an astonishingly generous and brilliant member of our community that, from what I can tell, is proving useful to a whole lot of folks out there. (And that is seriously epic awesome; I really cannot begin to express how grateful I am for this. I still wish he'd let me give him more stuff for as useful as this has been to me.)


    There's also another troubling point to consider: once you do something, you're going to be expected to keep on doing it. If you don't believe me, look over the troubles the platinum club is experiencing. Even things announced as 'for this year only' perks in some instances have been made the standard because you can't roll back from where you've gone before -- just like DAZ with Genesis. They can't unmake it. While each individual vendor works on a much smaller scale, the same is generally expected of us: you include X once, you dang well better keep including X, or there's going to be torches and pitchforks in your immediate future. (And if your roof is already leaky, odds are the fireproofing on your secret lair is not up to code.) This isn't a matter of pressure from DAZ. I will go on record as saying, so there is no ambiguity at all, that I have not submitted anything to DAZ at all since Modern Muses: Paloma until just yesterday, so DAZ is not being a big bad meanie-monster bonking Poser-Happy-Girl (even if she's dressed like a boy) on the nose, or making a rule that says she must submit to her new Genesis overlord or perish.


    The items I did most recently for sale at DAZ, the Tamesis products that I sold to them outright, and Modern Muses: Paloma, took a truly monumental amount of time to produce. Working on those two products exclusively took well over 4 months, and I work long hours, I don't take weekends off. These products had full support for Poser 6+, Poser 9 and its new features, and also DS4. They were Gen4 and Genesis, and in Paloma's case, Gen4 and Genesis V5. Despite having the years of sales numbers right in front of me that said, 'Adding DS support to my products showed very minimal increase in sales', Genesis was a new thing, and it deserved a new chance. I was absolutely willing to give it that. In the forums, everyone was clamoring for it on the positive side where the world is bright and happy and you get that one step closer to giving the people what they want -- and still others bashing anyone who wasn't providing it and threatening to never buy from them again or blacklist them or badmouth them, and so on. So by carrot AND by stick, despite the warnings of many years of sales experience, I gave it a shot.


    I will summarize with: It did not go so well. By that I actually mean, 'the financial ramifications of that decision will haunt me for the next five years or more, and my family suffered serious problems with their mortgage in their incredibly kind attempt to bail me out just enough so I wouldn't have to go into bankruptcy'. This is entirely my personal experience. It is in no way meant to extrapolate to guess at the experience of others; like everything else, it all varies. Maybe it had a bad day. Maybe people had no money that week. Maybe Saturn aligned with Neptune and both of them decided, "We really don't like surreality, it's time for a smite-fest. Somebody zorch a few routers near Utah!" Looking at the way I work, it is entirely possible that the set I chose to do this with wasn't cool to anybody but me and wouldn't have sold well no matter what -- I own that, I accept that, and that is a risk I knowingly take when I do what I do. It is part of the 'hard' of this job. It's entirely possible choosing that in particular was a spectacularly dumb call on my part. I'm not interested in trying to assign any blame, and even if I was, I have a big hole to dig myself out of as quickly as I can that demands my attention far too much to let myself worry about any finger pointing.


    I then finished up a set inside a week for Renderosity, and... it actually brought in, in its intro period, within $1 of the one that took 8 weeks of solid dev time. $X for a week's work (and I don't label the sum because seriously, it's not pretty no matter how you slice it up) is something someone can struggle by and live on while parsing out some to pay off a bill without the lights going out. That same $X parsed out over 8 weeks of work as a return... I don't actually know if you can count it as income when it's well under fifty cents per hour. I will have to ask the accountant on that point. (Again, I really only wish I was kidding, folks.)


    Now, if you've managed to even make it this far into this novella of a post (for which I commend your endurance)... peek at that technical point again about speed. See the problem?


    There are a couple of ways to address the problem. One, I can scale down over all pack size and have DS and Genesis support included, or I can do packs of my normal size, Poser-only. While I know there are doubtless pitchforks and torches in my future for not doing enormous packs that work in Poser6/Poser9/DS3/DS4/Carrara/Blender/Octane/Reality/etc., I know that the reasonable folks out there, who are the real majority of folks reading and commenting and are even more the majority of the folks buying, will absolutely understand this decision and the necessity for it. The products with DS support will land here if DAZ wants them. The products that don't have it will be sold elsewhere and for the time being I am not even submitting them here, because with the stress of trying to keep the lights on, some of the intentionally rude comments I regularly get when I release something here without DS support are just not something I can really cope with any longer, particularly when adding DS support to hopefully make those people happy, finally, really did cost me in a very real way, and the time investment vs. financial return on DS support for me has already been historically very poor.


    ...and the last bit. Really, it's the last bit. ;) I have a backlog. I have a huge pile of 'I have almost finished that and it is going well and it needs finishing'. This isn't even counting the 'that doesn't seem to be working, so I will set it aside' pile I mentioned before. All of that backlog was designed for... the big sets. So that meant, and means, that the sets designed to be smaller, for maximum compatibility cross-app and cross-figure, needed to get mixed in to 'this is almost done and just needs kicking out the door so the bank doesn't ask for a kidney and break my kneecaps' pile of things I need to finish up and get selling that are already underway. Even for someone fairly ADD about project flow, it's been... interesting. All of that backlog is for Gen4 -- so now is the time to get it done and out there, before something else comes along, because sooner or later, something always does. There's one set coming thus far that should be landing here, yep, I snuck that little mention in a while ago, and I didn't forget it either, designed for P6, P9, and DS4, with Gen4, Genesis V4, and Genesis V5 options in the mix. We'll see how it goes.


    There are no short answers, and I really do wish I had a shorter one for everyone. With a situation as complex as things are currently, to really address what's going on, in terms of the market and in terms of my business as an individual content creator, there really is a lot of ground to cover.


    A Very Important P.S. (because I warned you already that I'm long-winded): One primary reason you see people doing genesis/gen4 crossover sets is because genesis can accept Gen4 UV-mapping. This means the textures do not need to be recreated from scratch for use from one figure to the other in most cases. You cannot presently convert Gen4 textures to GNDA in the same fashion. When I price my products, I do not price them as if I was having to do the textures twice, once for genesis, and once for Gen4. I feel this would be inappropriate. I am not an exception in this regard, either. You are NOT being 'charged a bunch extra' for genesis texture support as some frequently claim. If I was to even attempt a character textures set that was somehow inclusive of Gen4 and GNDA it would be absolutely necessary to charge for the second set of texture work I would be required to do. As a result, the price would be considerably higher than it would be for a Genesis/Gen4 set. (And I say that as someone who absolutely IS working on products for GNDA as well. :) )

    Well, I don't think the situation from a vendors point of view can be made any clearer than that.
    Thank you for that insight. ;-)

  • SockrateaseSockratease Posts: 796
    edited June 2012

    Hard to get inspired or want to support either app with all the friction on the topic

    So just forget poser. d\s, and genocide all together and start supporting Carrara exclusively!


    Problem solved.


    You're welcome.


    Now can we please get back to the Important question?


    Where is The Millennium Cow???

    Post edited by Sockratease on
  • LedheadLedhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    Some of this is going to get a little technical.....


    ....snip.....


    .....who absolutely IS working on products for GNDA as well. :) )

    So what's your point? LOL


    That was a very interesting read. I am surprised I didn't get logged out with the time it took to do so. It makes us buyers of the content a little more appreciative of what you creators go through. Thank you very much for the insight

  • kylumikylumi Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hard to get inspired or want to support either app with all the friction on the topic

    So just forget poser. d\s, and genocide all together and start supporting Carrara exclusively!


    Problem solved.


    You're welcome.


    Now can we please get back to the Important question?


    Where is The Millennium Cow???


    No Cow......but, I know a guy who is useful with sheep :lol:

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 946
    edited June 2012

    Geez Surreality, next time you want to write a book, send it to Simon & Shuster first. They pay better! LOL!
    Just kidding. Good post. I have a few comments.


    Odds are, the people making the tee shirts you buy aren't as accessible. If you see a sampling of them in a store window that you don't care for, you're probably not going to go into the store, look at the labels for the manufacturer's information, and contact the manufacturer and the store to say: "I don't like your current selection. You seriously needed to make those in earth tones instead of pink, but with no hearts on them, and they should have skulls with spikes all over them or artsy flourishes instead. What were you thinking?! Do you think we're all Barbie dolls or something? And I look like I have jaundice in pink! I want my ominous crow silhouette with lightning in the background on swirlyspirals!" (This example may or may not be extracted from the scathing letter I might or might not have written in my head to Target upon realizing that all their men's tees were always so much cooler than the chick selection, but never actually wrote. I plead the fifth, but totally admit to being dressed 'like a boy' right now. *cough*) You're just going to go to another store to find what you want, because, hey, there's one just next door after all.

    You can wear the male T-shirt. Trust me, I have had many girlfriends "borrow" clothing. Borrowed and never seen again. They looked good in those male shirts too. LOL!


    Creative work is harder than most people think. This is not the kickoff to a melodramatic speech, delivered with my hand pinned to my forehead with a nail gun like some swooning Victorian maiden intent on proving martyrdom -- it's just a simple truth, stated simply. I'm not complaining about the fact that it's hard, because when it comes right down to it, everybody's work is hard. We may not like the work, we may just need money and will do any work we can, we may hate our boss, we may hate the dress code, the commute may be a nightmare -- in some way, everybody's work is genuinely and validly hard in very real ways that, at least to me, it's unfair to hand-wave away without at least giving it some consideration. That's why we call it 'work' in the first place. If the rewards weren't worth the work, we wouldn't do it. Whether those rewards come in the form of money to keep a roof over our heads in a traditional job, or in work you really love to do even if it's not bringing in big money and the roof's starting to get a little leaky, there's always some balance that needs to be struck. It's an analysis of investment vs. gain, and we all -- in any job, and really in every aspect of our lives -- have to take a look at that from time to time.

    Yes. True. This is why I am a firm believer that people should be allowed to do work they actually love, because work is hard. When you allow people to do what they love you get better results. I'm an artist too and I can dig down deep and work like a horse much better in artistic endeavours than anything else.


    Important note: App wars suck. They suck a whole lot. I am really tired of them and the fact that they continue endlessly also heavily saps the will to keep going.

    App wars do suck, but the easiest way to avoid being sapped energy wise is to not participate. I used to get drained in fights and wars. Then I stopped participating, well for the most part. Most of my really good posts were being deleted anyway and I really don't like to give moderators the satisfaction, so I started opting out.


    Some of this There's also another troubling point to consider: once you do something, you're going to be expected to keep on doing it. If you don't believe me, look over the troubles the platinum club is experiencing. Even things announced as 'for this year only' perks in some instances have been made the standard because you can't roll back from where you've gone before -- just like DAZ with Genesis. They can't unmake it. While each individual vendor works on a much smaller scale, the same is generally expected of us: you include X once, you dang well better keep including X, or there's going to be torches and pitchforks in your immediate future. (And if your roof is already leaky, odds are the fireproofing on your secret lair is not up to code.) This isn't a matter of pressure from DAZ. I will go on record as saying, so there is no ambiguity at all, that I have not submitted anything to DAZ at all since Modern Muses: Paloma until just yesterday, so DAZ is not being a big bad meanie-monster bonking Poser-Happy-Girl (even if she's dressed like a boy) on the nose, or making a rule that says she must submit to her new Genesis overlord or perish.

    On the issue of the Platinum Club, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't remember any "this year only perks."

    There are a couple of ways to address the problem. One, I can scale down over all pack size and have DS and Genesis support included, or I can do packs of my normal size, Poser-only. While I know there are doubtless pitchforks and torches in my future for not doing enormous packs that work in Poser6/Poser9/DS3/DS4/Carrara/Blender/Octane/Reality/etc., I know that the reasonable folks out there, who are the real majority of folks reading and commenting and are even more the majority of the folks buying, will absolutely understand this decision and the necessity for it. The products with DS support will land here if DAZ wants them. The products that don't have it will be sold elsewhere and for the time being I am not even submitting them here, because with the stress of trying to keep the lights on, some of the intentionally rude comments I regularly get when I release something here without DS support are just not something I can really cope with any longer, particularly when adding DS support to hopefully make those people happy, finally, really did cost me in a very real way, and the time investment vs. financial return on DS support for me has already been historically very poor.


    I'm primarily a Carrara user, but I have some your stuff. The main things I want to know when shopping for content is "will it load into Carrara" and "how does it look in Carrara." I am putting this out to you (and to any other content creators out there). Make things however you feel suits your strengths and artistic drive, I can test the stuff in Carrara, see if it loads, see if it looks right, gauge how much work (if any) would the end user need to do to make it look right, and then make a few test renders (or promo renders). As a Carrara user, I usually end up swapping out textures anyway for certain things. Sometimes we have to tweak things to make them look right. Sometimes I find Poser shaders look better than the ones for DS anyway.
    This is a way to help you without hurting you or causing extra work.
    When something new comes available for Carrara, we promote it over in our forums.
    Just something to think about.


    Anyway, thanks for your post.

    :coolsmile:

    Post edited by tsarist on
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