Help with creating clothes for Genesis.... steps involved?

24

Comments

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,277
    edited December 1969

    Spyro said:

    Ah Thanks heaps Lars!!

    I knew it would be something very simple... This all is going to save me $ for not getting Zbrush... And Massive time for using max not other software that I'd have to learn. :)

    my settings have always used polygon... quads is also an option (I thought they were the same)

    Optimized has always been set ON for me lol, I'll switch these off in future. I never use Tri's (I learned that the hard way)

    Glad I could help. Last night I figured out I need to spend some time with weight mapping, so that is what I am going to spend some time on tonight. then rigidity zones and bones. But maybe not in that order.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,277
    edited December 1969

    Spyro said:

    my settings have always used polygon... quads is also an option (I thought they were the same)


    Found this in the docs

    DAZ Studio prefers Quads or Tris. Larger sided Polys will try to display in DAZ Studio, but there is a risk of Artifacts showing up in these areas. Most DAZ Studio Artists model using quads.

    So it seems like quads may be better than polys for this reason.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,384
    edited December 2012

    Spyro said:

    my settings have always used polygon... quads is also an option (I thought they were the same)


    Found this in the docs

    DAZ Studio prefers Quads or Tris. Larger sided Polys will try to display in DAZ Studio, but there is a risk of Artifacts showing up in these areas. Most DAZ Studio Artists model using quads.

    So it seems like quads may be better than polys for this reason.

    Quads are pretty much an industry standard by now. Topography is one of the most important parts of modelling, and using quads helps a lot with that simply because they're more malleable than tris. You can split them easier for a start, and subdivision is a key role in the Genesis figures success. Tris also don't play nicely with many smoothing techniques, due to the lack of vertices.

    Post edited by Herald of Fire on
  • DogzDogz Posts: 745
    edited December 2012

    Well Triangles and Quads are both different types of polygons ... so are those horrible Ngons.
    Good way to get rid of Ngons in Max, under the modifier tree select "Turn to poly' and limit polys to 4 side in the modifers options roll out.

    I dont actually know what export to obj in poly mode does that quads doesnt, so it might be fine. Its just Tris you dont want, at least not for clothing anyway, Triangles are just fine in props. But overall yes, it best to get in to the habbit of avoiding there use where possible.
    Always depends what you are doing, most game engines draw everything in Tris so its often not such a big deal when making video game assets for example.

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,277
    edited December 2012

    Thanks all, got another question regarding selection sets used for rigging with custom bones.

    Selection Sets

    Create Selection Sets (polygon groups) in your modeler. These will be used to designate the bones of the model. This can also be accomplished using DAZ Studio's Polygon Group Editor if you prefer.

    In this example I'm making a hat that has a long snake like tail. So I'm not using the transfer utility at all. Just custom bones.

    So again I'm trying to avoid using DS for this stuff if possible(meaning the selection groups), is there a way to set up selection sets/polygon groups in Max that DS respects? These selection sets are totally unrelated to surface groups. I've been able add them in DS, but once i move on to something more complex I think it would be a pain to do it in DS.

    Edit: now that I have forced myself to use the polygon group editor more isn't all that bad in DS , but I'm still curious if I can do it in Max.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,277
    edited December 2012

    mjc1016 said:

    Now does anyone know if there is any advantage of making some general fit morphs...something that can cover a range of figures.
    ;

    Maybe. I don't know though simply because I just make tweaks to clothing for a single character I have. I don't care about making it work for characters I may never use. But i did test if it was possible and it seems to work.

    My steps.
    Export clothing to hexagon and morph as needed.
    When done use the send to daz button to send item back to DS.
    In the new dialog in DS save as a Morph and not a new prop.
    The new morph will show in the parameters.
    You can save this as a morph asset if needed. otherwise will just save to the scene.

    Point is that it is doable as a manually dial-able morph and not just a morph to replace a preset shape, however I think it would be tough to figure out what will be universally usable. And how many groups would you need to cover? that's a lot of upfront time.

    prolly more useful for undress morphs and such ;)

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Thanks all, got another question regarding selection sets used for rigging with custom bones.

    Selection Sets

    Create Selection Sets (polygon groups) in your modeler. These will be used to designate the bones of the model. This can also be accomplished using DAZ Studio's Polygon Group Editor if you prefer.

    In this example I'm making a hat that has a long snake like tail. So I'm not using the transfer utility at all. Just custom bones.

    So again I'm trying to avoid using DS for this stuff if possible(meaning the selection groups), is there a way to set up selection sets/polygon groups in Max that DS respects? These selection sets are totally unrelated to surface groups. I've been able add them in DS, but once i move on to something more complex I think it would be a pain to do it in DS.

    Edit: now that I have forced myself to use the polygon group editor more isn't all that bad in DS , but I'm still curious if I can do it in Max.

    To be honest I'd prefer to do the rigging in DS. There are some good tuts out there, and there's no risk of DS not respecting it. Though, I myself have not yet played too much with bones as of yet. My next project its a tunic with a loincloth that does cover a pair of pants I recently made (Which I need to do custom FBM's for... It's in my render thread) The loincloth section will require several bones as I want it to be as controllable as possible. I hope to have several bones horizontally across the cloth, and many going down vertically.

    I am interested to learn it in Max, should Daz respect those features. the only concern is that OBJ don't carry rigging information. And I've not had much success with FBX files between DS and MAX.

    This is a tut I came across in DS - (Mind you, it was done before weight mapping was introduced).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWVB2XOjh4o&list=PL2D8D7C7D58F3F0F7&index=1&feature=plpp_video
    He has a number of related vid tuts.

  • DogzDogz Posts: 745
    edited December 2012

    Thanks all, got another question regarding selection sets used for rigging with custom bones.

    Selection Sets

    Create Selection Sets (polygon groups) in your modeler. These will be used to designate the bones of the model. This can also be accomplished using DAZ Studio's Polygon Group Editor if you prefer.

    In this example I'm making a hat that has a long snake like tail. So I'm not using the transfer utility at all. Just custom bones.

    So again I'm trying to avoid using DS for this stuff if possible(meaning the selection groups), is there a way to set up selection sets/polygon groups in Max that DS respects? These selection sets are totally unrelated to surface groups. I've been able add them in DS, but once i move on to something more complex I think it would be a pain to do it in DS.

    Edit: now that I have forced myself to use the polygon group editor more isn't all that bad in DS , but I'm still curious if I can do it in Max.

    Well, "yes and no" regarding poly groups in max...
    If you are doing a rig from scratch (not transfer utility). you most certainly can make the Poly groups in Max and its MUCH faster than doing it Daz Studio or Poser.
    BUT (and its a very big 'but' here), I dont advise using this method for a flexible / bending objects (like limbs) because it will break up the smoothing and also might also cause the object to split at the seams when the bones are moved around.
    It is only suitable for static objects like props and enviroments. e.g, walls windows and doors -or anything else than doesn't need its geometry to bend..

    In Max, you must break up your Model in to different sections: To do this:

    1) In edit poly mode, select the faces you want for a group, then do a 'detatch' to object (not element) and give the object a meaningful name. Repeat until you have all your groups.

    2) When you do the export, select all the model parts and do an "Export selected" to a single .OBJ

    3) Now when you import to Daz Studio (or Poser) It will regognise all the different sections as poly groups. But you will still have to add the bones in Daz Studio -and remember, each bone you make MUST be named the same as its poly group, or else it will not bind the two. :)

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,277
    edited December 2012

    Spyro said:

    To be honest I'd prefer to do the rigging in DS. There are some good tuts out there, and there's no risk of DS not respecting it. Though, I myself have not yet played too much with bones as of yet. My next project its a tunic with a loincloth that does cover a pair of pants I recently made (Which I need to do custom FBM's for... It's in my render thread) The loincloth section will require several bones as I want it to be as controllable as possible. I hope to have several bones horizontally across the cloth, and many going down vertically.

    This is a tut I came across in DS - (Mind you, it was done before weight mapping was introduced).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWVB2XOjh4o&list=PL2D8D7C7D58F3F0F7&index=1&feature=plpp_video
    He has a number of related vid tuts.

    Thanks for the link. I'm not trying to rig in Max myself, just set up polygroups to use for rigging in studio. I have done a few items with bones last night, and DS can autocreate bones based on polygon groups. So if polygroups are already created you don't have to actually draw each bone in studio. You would still rig it in studio though.


    Well, "yes and no" regarding poly groups in max...

    Thanks, that answers it. This explains what I noticed through experimenting. I imported a few daz items in max And noticed if I didn't choose to make them a single mesh the poly groups would remain intact but obviously the pieces weren't welded. Wasn't sure if I could keep the item intact and have the groups at the same time but looks like no.

    So I'll use Max poly groups for props and stick to assigning face groups in Studio for clothes.

    Last night I rigged a really ugly monster I made and even did some rigitdity groups on a bikini I made earlier. All the links in this thread have been helpful. At this point now I just need to actually make something worth looking at so I'll be quiet now :)

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Make sure you post your creations here so we can see :cheese:

    I guess i too will assign face groups in studio for clothes. Since my next item will require added bones, I will follow your and Dogz advice :)

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 2012

    Question...

    I need to learn the method of creating Custom FBM's.

    I came across this video in Community>Publishing. It seems to use transfer tool to create the "basic Fit" in which you export and edit. ( I have already used the transfer tool to get the basic shapes, they just distort in areas, such as the holster straps and buckles)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4gjtHPKtuM&feature=player_embedded#!

    Is this the way I should go about it? I'm totally new to this, and intend to use 3ds max

    I would like to have the clothing using the shape eg. M5, so that my work in max is only to clean up the mesh not re-create the entire M5 shape from the default Genesis pants.

    FBM's I wish to create are M5, M4, Basic Male, M5 James, M5 Benjamin, Murgatroid's Tweens Boy (These are my priority) and consider doing Basic Female, V5, V4, S5 (Depending on the top that's part of the outfit which has not yet been modeled).

    EDIT: Found these which are interesting watch... If I can do the same as MODO in Max, I'll be laughing :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppi--4q56B0&list=PLE026B44096BBD507&index=6
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-SKYTOkVo4&list=PLE026B44096BBD507&index=7

    Pants_Base_Texture_WIP2-4_DETAIL_TEST_b.jpg
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    Pants_Base_Texture_WIP2-4_DETAIL_TEST.jpg
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    Post edited by SpyroRue on
  • DogzDogz Posts: 745
    edited December 2012

    I usually tidy up in max with the soft selection tools,
    The wieght map brush in DS, might help you a bit, but its primarily for improving the defermation of joints when they are bent.
    The straps and buckles are in a good postiton in the sense that they are not over any joints so they should not get much distortion on bends.
    But if they warp badly on certain charactrer shapes, custom FBMs is the probabably the best solution. You can try making ridgity groups (there is a tutorial on Daz Docs) - personally Ive never been able to get them to work.

    If I were in you shoes, I would would I rig a copy of the pants without the straps, to get an auto generated morph for those, then fit the non distorted straps manually in Max for each FBM reattach and export., But if you do it this 'cheat' way - the attach order in Max has to be 100% constistent with the orginal strapped version, or else the vert order wont match and you will get exploding geometry in DS when you dial in the morph. So it will work ok if all four straps (as a single mesh) was the last thing you attached to the pants. If you attached them to the pants piece by peice, its not going to work (unless you start fresh)
    Its not the most ideal way of doing it - just a muddle though type work around more than anything. But if you try it, write down your attach order to a note pad file for your own reference.

    Great looking pants by the way :)

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Attached is a series of renders of Daz's transferred FBM's (Not custom FBM's)

    Basic Male seems to work quite well. M5 James and M5 Benjamin are rather similar to the distortion of M5.


    ----------
    So Dogz...

    What your saying is that I should re-export Base Genesis Pants, having added the straps last, and export the pants from Daz with FBM's in play, delete the straps on in Max, worn by Daz's export, and add the default genesis Straps and shape to fit the FBM?

    Wont adding default genesis straps to the FBM which previously had straps screw up the FBM when used in Daz?

    Daz_Dynamic_Morphs.jpg
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  • DogzDogz Posts: 745
    edited December 2012

    Not quite. I was saying, export one with straps added last (you main item) and export one with no straps.
    Use the no strap one to make the auto generated FBMs, then add the straps to them in max. Delete the no straps version when finished.

    But now - looking at your renders, Dude - I wouldnt bother with FBMs at all! there is so little distortion there, they dont really need FBMs that badly, they are pretty much just fine,
    Well ok, maybe on the Michael 5 one, select the buckle verts in max, use soft slection to make some minor tweaks and maybe add a relax modifer on a value of 1.0 for good messure, but that should really be sufficient.
    Dont give your self more work than you need to, you dont need FBMs for the sake of having FBMs, if looks like that with autofit, then its job well done and move on to the next item :).

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • DogzDogz Posts: 745
    edited December 1969

    Oh .. hang one second! I might have spokent oo soon.
    Are you using mesh smoothing modifier in DS and if so what is the iteration setting?
    If that is 0-5 iterations you are fine. but if its 10+ then you need to see how it looks with mesh smoothing down to 2. Or if you intend to make its DSON ready, you should see how it looks with mesh smoothing turned off.
    then decide what to do with custom FBMs based on that

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Lol Thanks Dogz! The straps and clips just bug me that they like to reshape when a character is dialed. Would be nice if you could tell daz "Don't re-shape these polygons" lol

    I'm thinking M5 definitely needs a custom FBM, but you're right, I shouldn't be too much a perfectionist, else, I'll never finish it.

  • DogzDogz Posts: 745
    edited December 2012

    Spyro said:
    Lol Thanks Dogz! The straps and clips just bug me that they like to reshape when a character is dialed. Would be nice if you could tell daz "Don't re-shape these polygons" lol.

    Daz Studio can do this via 'Ridgidity maps' - But i dont know if its really worth the time and effort. Ive personally not got them to work, the daz docs tutorial on them is a bit confusing, i followed all the steps as best i could and got no joy, the geometry still warped on me.
    I made a thread on it (at the time) in nuts and bolts - but no one could offer me any suggestion as to where I was going wrong.
    Off hand, I dont know of another PA who has got them working, nor can i think of a product ive bought where the vendor has noticably used them.

    So all things considered, it seemed like too much effort for too little reward.
    I guess you can look in to it if you really want to go that extra mile, you may well be able figure out what i could not.

    What was the deal with mesh smoothing on you pants?

    Post edited by Dogz on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Dogz said:
    Oh .. hang one second! I might have spokent oo soon.
    Are you using mesh smoothing modifier in DS and if so what is the iteration setting?
    If that is 0-5 iterations you are fine. but if its 10+ then you need to see how it looks with mesh smoothing down to 2. Or if you intend to make its DSON ready, you should see how it looks with mesh smoothing turned off.
    then decide what to do with custom FBMs based on that

    Sorry, I missed this post...

    Pants uses smoothing iterations at default "2" It's not necessary to go higher than the default.

    It is sub divided, and was designed for use of subD at "1" Iteration. At base resolution, there is surface smoothing issues at the fly (Pure cosmetic, I'm not talking about not geometry smoothing)

    (With DSON, I was under the impression Daz handled DSON, am I wrong? All the same with Mac compatibility... I dont have a Mac, and no way I could know for sure how to make it Mac)

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 2,012
    edited December 2012

    Spyro said:
    Lol Thanks Dogz! The straps and clips just bug me that they like to reshape when a character is dialed. Would be nice if you could tell daz "Don't re-shape these polygons" lol

    I'm thinking M5 definitely needs a custom FBM, but you're right, I shouldn't be too much a perfectionist, else, I'll never finish it.

    The pants are coming along pretty good. And yeah you probably need to do a FBM for M5 and M5 hero before anything else. The genesis base shapes and those shapes that in that same shape range, aren't much of a problem. When you start getting into more detailed and extreme shapes is when you'll need the FBMs. Also the Freak 4 shape would need one as well. Shoes would definitely need a M5 FBM as those toes will really pull at the mesh because of the detail.

    Post edited by Male-M3dia on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 2012

    Yeah, Freak 4 comes close to destroying my model LOL

    So, my priority FBM's should be:
    Michael5
    Michael5 Hero
    Freak4
    Michael4 (Genesis) ?

    Ones that show minimal distortion are smaller characters and Basic Male.

    The overall outfit isn't really a female design, so I'm not sure if it's worth it... V5, V5 Supermodel, S5, S5's base shapes, V4 genesis, would all need FBM's to work.

    Hiro 5, is kinda like F4 in regards to distortion, largely due to his rather exaggerated stature and slimness. I'm hesitant to prioritize him.

    @Dogz - I did a quick test with no smoothing, and other than a minor poke through, (A mistake I made in Max) it seems to work fine, with exception of non smoothed poses as the weight maps seem to work much better with at least smoothing set to 1.

    Post edited by SpyroRue on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Also @Dogz - I do like the idea of adding the straps to the FBM's that don't have straps. The actual pants seem ok with the FBMs, its the straps and buckles that are the obvious distortions.

  • DogzDogz Posts: 745
    edited December 1969

    Spyro said:

    (With DSON, I was under the impression Daz handled DSON, am I wrong?

    Im afraid so, you must do it your self - I have a thread in the PA section on how to do it.

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 2012

    Oh I see, 'PA section' Are you talking Published Artist forum? I not a published artist, least not yet, thus far I've only released freebies on Share CG. (My work has been previously focused on props until now) You dont happen to have it in nuts and bolts as well by any chance? There's soooo much to learn with clothing :)

    Post edited by SpyroRue on
  • graham jamesgraham james Posts: 41
    edited December 1969

    There is a rigidity map tutorial by Smay on Youtube. He used rigidity on a shoulder holster.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUg0Q1KiqiU

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited December 1969

    Thanks Graham ! Wish it was easier to keep up with LMAO. Seems rather similar in respect with Weight mapping. Ideal with the buckles. Though FBM's will still needed for the straps (I will need to read up on it all). The muscle tone and shapes are heavily impacting the straps, the outer face of the straps is fine with the default FBM's, but the straps width is being stretched with a jiggered edge, especially on the back of the thighs.

    Thanks very much for the link :cheese:

  • creativemodelsbecreativemodelsbe Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    DaremoK3 said:
    Yes, it is a shame that a lot of pertinent information is still missing after all this time...

    yes, unthinkable :shut:

  • MadbatMadbat Posts: 287
    edited December 1969

    Speaking of missing pertinent information...is there a quick rundown (somewhere) on the daz to hexagon bridge? I've found everything BUT that.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,277
    edited December 1969

    Madbat said:
    Speaking of missing pertinent information...is there a quick rundown (somewhere) on the daz to hexagon bridge? I've found everything BUT that.

    what are you asking for in particular? it's fairly straight forward... Hit the send to hexagon button from daz, hit the send to daz from hexagon button....


    If you want to make morphs don't change the vertex order or vertex count when you manipulate in hexagon.

    if you are making custom pieces in hexagon that obviously has no bearing. If you roll through the first few pages of this thread you probably will find what you are looking for. But the bridge is straight forward, what you send from daz goes to hexagon, and vice versa.

  • MadbatMadbat Posts: 287
    edited December 1969

    I didn't expect it to be that simple, thanks!

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,277
    edited December 1969

    Madbat said:
    I didn't expect it to be that simple, thanks!

    Enjoy!

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