Will DS4 and earlier users ever get a workaround for duf files?!

LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in The Commons

I've seen more and more DS4.5 only products coming out in the store and frankly it's irritating. I'm a firm believer in 'if it's not broken don't fix it' ... Even so, while I still don't understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That's fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?


I personally have no interest in DS4.5 and my main concern is that Daz isn't providing legacy installers with all their new content, as they should. Especially with the Daz Original content which I pay a membership fee to get a discount on, and now can't even use. I've passed up on the majority of the new items in the store for this reason, and I'm wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same frustrations or has found a way that legacy users can work with products that are in duf format? I was interested in the Horse2 and I know someone said there's a remap floating around out there, but I'm wondering how you can even remap something that - like genesis/most genesis content - probably doesn't have a standard obj (to import into DS) associated with it?


I'm not holding my breath for a solution since I'm pretty sure duf wasn't created to be backwards compatible, but it would be really nice to hear some official word from Daz on why we're being cornered into this upgrade and whether us legacy users will eventually have to shop elsewhere for new content!

Comments

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,398
    edited December 1969

    The DUF files (DSON Format) were created to allow compatablity with other software is the really short answer since I dont know the technical bit behind it all.

    At the same time, DS45, if you have not tried it, is much faster then DS4 when it comes to viewport navigation and is also a bit faster in rendering.

    In regards to PA owned items, it is up to the PA as to whether or not they will support older versions of the software. Regardless of whether its DAZ Studio or Poser.

    If you want to try DS45 but not loose DS4 or even compare the two (and your on a Windows machine) you can do the following

    1. Using Winrar or anther compression program of choice, compress your DS4 program folder into a single archive.

    2. Move that file somewhere safe where you will not delete it by accident.

    3. Uninstall DS4

    4. Install DS 4.5

    5. Install DS45 content to a newer location then your current content to avoid overwriting your excisting DS4 only content

    6. Decompress the DS4 folder to a new location of your choice

    7. Create a short cut to the new DS4 location.

    I do not know if you can run both at the same time but you can now at least launch one at a time and compare loading times plus overall handeling

  • cwichuracwichura Posts: 1,000
    edited December 2012

    Besides moving to DUF for cross-app compatibility, 4.5 includes a number of features that very quickly became a standard part of how I build scenes. Things like group nodes and geometry shells. And it's MUCH more responsive. In 4, if I had a couple figures with subdivision level set to 2 in a scene, the viewport was unusable due to how slowly it updated. In 4.5, I don't even notice a slowdown at all.

    The original 4.5 was pretty buggy, in particular to saving to the new DUF format. But DAZ has been very responsive to fixing these types of bugs, and all the stuff I reported was fixed and 4.5.1.6 has been very stable for me; as stable as the last 4.0 was, if not moreso.

    Yes, it's a pain to go through and re-download stuff in your library to fix all the duplicate ID errors. But that's a one-time thing. I grumbled about it, too. But now it's done, I could never go back to 4.x.

    The only thing in 4.5 I wish they'd revert is the new moronic handling of MLIE definitions.

    As to the original question: your workaround is called 'install 4.5'. There will never be a DUF importer for 4.x. It'd be silly for DAZ to move backwards like that. I recall seeing comments from one PA saying DUF also supports advancements in weight maps, which means it's more than just an import. At least DAZ has been supporting 4.x users by including 'Legacy' installer options for a bunch of new products. But that's partly a function of what the PA provides DAZ when they submit the product. Eventually that will go away, too. In the end, you're just gonna have to bite the bullet and upgrade.

    Post edited by cwichura on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,210
    edited December 1969

    LEI1 said:
    I've seen more and more DS4.5 only . I'm a firm believer in 'if it's not broken don't fix it' ... Even so, while I still don't understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That's fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?

    But that's where you are wrong. 4.5, not only adds new functionality...but if fixes quite a few problems in 4.0, not the least of which are some rather major 3Delight problems. Plus besides fixing the 3Delight problems (some of which were long standing ones, that finally were fixed in the last few updates to 3Delight), it has all the speed improvements those updates include. The latest beta version (which I haven't run) includes the 10.0.73 (I think...it's a 10.7 series) 3Delight, which includes even more speed enhancements (the 10.0.6x in 4.5.1.6 has significant speed improvements over the 10.5x in 4.0). Somewhere between a dozen and two dozen fixes, alone, from 10.5 to 10.6x, for 3Delight.

    Then there's the various internal fixes.

    A few of the 4.0 to 4.5 fixes:
    Fixed UV set load on very old scenes
    Fixed a crash issue when using transfer utility to transfer weights to a figure that was already active in the weightmap brush tool
    Fixed an issue where the Inherit Parent Scale option would remain set on bones that were formerly the root but are no longer when converting legacy content during Auto Fit

    Here's the ChangeLog...

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_5_1_6

    Plus, it had been about a year from when 4.0 was released to when 4.5 came out...(10/11 months or so...).

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,521
    edited December 1969

    IIRC, doesn't it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

    Why do people lately react to any change they don't like by saying someone is trying to force them to do something...I just don't get it or see it that way. : (

    Staying with a particular version of DS is a choice made by the user. I've done it myself several times to make sure a new version isn't buggy.

    Wasn't the new format also to help create the plug in for Poser?

    I haven't updated all my files to dson...one day I might get around to it and everything seems to work okay for me.

  • JaderailJaderail Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I moved from DS4.0 to DS4.5 so fast my Modem caught fire. It is a 100% improvement in my eyes. Speed, usability, feature enhancements all make for a faster and better user experience. I have not had one problem. The only users I do know of that do have issues are ones who just are not able to have updated PC's. If that is your issue I also would stay with DS4.0.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Pendraia said:
    IIRC, doesn't it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

    I don't remember Shader Baker in DS4.0... or at least, if I tried it, I gave up on it... I do know that in 4.5 it works amazing!

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,521
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    Pendraia said:
    IIRC, doesn't it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

    I don't remember Shader Baker in DS4.0... or at least, if I tried it, I gave up on it... I do know that in 4.5 it works amazing!

    IIRC I think it was but I know that Shadermixer had several changes between 4 and 4.5 it was one of the reasons I wanted to upgrade.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,210
    edited December 1969

    Pendraia said:
    wancow said:
    Pendraia said:
    IIRC, doesn't it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

    I don't remember Shader Baker in DS4.0... or at least, if I tried it, I gave up on it... I do know that in 4.5 it works amazing!

    IIRC I think it was but I know that Shadermixer had several changes between 4 and 4.5 it was one of the reasons I wanted to upgrade.

    Shader Baker has been around for a long time...it was in DS 3 (not sure if it was all versions or just A and P versions). I think it was even in DS 2...

    I didn't specifically list AutoFit keeping morphs as a fix...but it's kind of both a fix and a feature upgrade.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    LEI1 said:
    I've seen more and more DS4.5 only . I'm a firm believer in 'if it's not broken don't fix it' ... Even so, while I still don't understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That's fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?

    But that's where you are wrong. 4.5, not only adds new functionality...but if fixes quite a few problems in 4.0, not the least of which are some rather major 3Delight problems. Plus besides fixing the 3Delight problems (some of which were long standing ones, that finally were fixed in the last few updates to 3Delight), it has all the speed improvements those updates include. The latest beta version (which I haven't run) includes the 10.0.73 (I think...it's a 10.7 series) 3Delight, which includes even more speed enhancements (the 10.0.6x in 4.5.1.6 has significant speed improvements over the 10.5x in 4.0). Somewhere between a dozen and two dozen fixes, alone, from 10.5 to 10.6x, for 3Delight.

    Then there's the various internal fixes.

    A few of the 4.0 to 4.5 fixes:
    Fixed UV set load on very old scenes
    Fixed a crash issue when using transfer utility to transfer weights to a figure that was already active in the weightmap brush tool
    Fixed an issue where the Inherit Parent Scale option would remain set on bones that were formerly the root but are no longer when converting legacy content during Auto Fit

    Here's the ChangeLog...

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_5_1_6

    Plus, it had been about a year from when 4.0 was released to when 4.5 came out...(10/11 months or so...).

    To me the word broken suggest that something is unusable ... the 3Delight engine and DS4 as a whole is definitely not unusable. If you want to argue that improvements have been made that's another story which I'm in no position to disagree with. But seeing as I use it constantly I can confirm that nothing about DS4 is 'broken'.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    LEI1 said:
    I've seen more and more DS4.5 only products coming out in the store and frankly it's irritating. I'm a firm believer in 'if it's not broken don't fix it' ... Even so, while I still don't understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That's fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?


    I personally have no interest in DS4.5 and my main concern is that Daz isn't providing legacy installers with all their new content, as they should. Especially with the Daz Original content which I pay a membership fee to get a discount on, and now can't even use. I've passed up on the majority of the new items in the store for this reason, and I'm wondering if anyone else is experiencing the same frustrations or has found a way that legacy users can work with products that are in duf format? I was interested in the Horse2 and I know someone said there's a remap floating around out there, but I'm wondering how you can even remap something that - like genesis/most genesis content - probably doesn't have a standard obj (to import into DS) associated with it?


    I'm not holding my breath for a solution since I'm pretty sure duf wasn't created to be backwards compatible, but it would be really nice to hear some official word from Daz on why we're being cornered into this upgrade and whether us legacy users will eventually have to shop elsewhere for new content!

    Just quoting my first post to clarify that I have no hopes of DUF becoming usable in DS4, at least not officially ... my biggest concern is that Daz Original (I'm not really speaking on PA products, because those are obviously at the discretion of the artists) products are coming out without any options for those of us who don't care to upgrade to DS4.5. I bear no personal grudge against 4.5, it sounds awesome in many ways! Just not awesome or ground breaking enough for me to re-install my entire library and deal with compatibility issues and bugs.

    It would be so different if Daz had released this as DS5 and allowed us to run both DS4 and the new build side by side if we chose, but despite the fact that both builds are radically different, they're basically saying: you MUST have one or the other ... and if you don't have the one WE want you to have, then you won't be able to use many of the products currently releasing into the store. And THAT is what I find both unfair and extremely irritating, especially as a PC member. If I'm paying for the discount, I shouldn't suddenly be limited in what I can buy based on what works in the version of DS I'm running!

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Actually, you don't need to reinstall anything right off the bat. There's a script to fix duplicate IDs which I've found works just fine for my needs. Some content seemed to get lost, but when I found that, it was just a matter of re-installing that particular item. It hasn't been a very big deal at all for me.

    I highly recommend upgrading. I think you won't regret it.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Mattymanx said:
    In regards to PA owned items, it is up to the PA as to whether or not they will support older versions of the software. Regardless of whether its DAZ Studio or Poser.


    I was actually referring more to Daz Originals ... I actually haven't seen PA releases that are DS4.5 only yet, maybe I missed them??

    If you want to try DS45 but not loose DS4 or even compare the two (and your on a Windows machine) you can do the following

    1. Using Winrar or anther compression program of choice, compress your DS4 program folder into a single archive.

    2. Move that file somewhere safe where you will not delete it by accident.

    3. Uninstall DS4

    4. Install DS 4.5

    5. Install DS45 content to a newer location then your current content to avoid overwriting your excisting DS4 only content

    6. Decompress the DS4 folder to a new location of your choice

    7. Create a short cut to the new DS4 location.

    I do not know if you can run both at the same time but you can now at least launch one at a time and compare loading times plus overall handeling


    I really wish there was a workaround like this for macs! Is there any reason you can't do the same on MAC OSX? Unfortunately I'm not running Windows, but if I had the option to keep my current install untouched and just give DS4.5 a spin ... I certainly would.

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 2,535
    edited December 1969

    It is not so much DAZ forcing anyone to update as content creators updating to make their work easier or more flexible. Sometimes they can support older versions with little trouble. Saving shader presets as .dsa files is one example. In other situations supporting the older version would mean redoing the work at least once.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    cwichura said:
    Besides moving to DUF for cross-app compatibility, 4.5 includes a number of features that very quickly became a standard part of how I build scenes. Things like group nodes and geometry shells. And it's MUCH more responsive. In 4, if I had a couple figures with subdivision level set to 2 in a scene, the viewport was unusable due to how slowly it updated. In 4.5, I don't even notice a slowdown at all.

    The original 4.5 was pretty buggy, in particular to saving to the new DUF format. But DAZ has been very responsive to fixing these types of bugs, and all the stuff I reported was fixed and 4.5.1.6 has been very stable for me; as stable as the last 4.0 was, if not moreso.

    Yes, it's a pain to go through and re-download stuff in your library to fix all the duplicate ID errors. But that's a one-time thing. I grumbled about it, too. But now it's done, I could never go back to 4.x.

    The only thing in 4.5 I wish they'd revert is the new moronic handling of MLIE definitions.

    As to the original question: your workaround is called 'install 4.5'. There will never be a DUF importer for 4.x. It'd be silly for DAZ to move backwards like that. I recall seeing comments from one PA saying DUF also supports advancements in weight maps, which means it's more than just an import. At least DAZ has been supporting 4.x users by including 'Legacy' installer options for a bunch of new products. But that's partly a function of what the PA provides DAZ when they submit the product. Eventually that will go away, too. In the end, you're just gonna have to bite the bullet and upgrade.

    Well install 4.5 definitely isn't a 'workaround' of any kind lol, and the support for Legacy users has been inconsistent - which is basically why I wrote this post. The NightOut suit for Hiro5 and the Horse2 are prime examples of new releases I would have happily purchased had they not been DS4.5 only. This whole post wasn't at all about comparing DS4 to 4.5, I'm sure 4.5 has lots of cool things going on! My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn't be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It's never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don't really understand why it is the case now??

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 1,166
    edited December 1969

    LEI1 said:

    Just quoting my first post to clarify that I have no hopes of DUF becoming usable in DS4, at least not officially ... my biggest concern is that Daz Original (I'm not really speaking on PA products, because those are obviously at the discretion of the artists) products are coming out without any options for those of us who don't care to upgrade to DS4.5. I bear no personal grudge against 4.5, it sounds awesome in many ways! Just not awesome or ground breaking enough for me to re-install my entire library and deal with compatibility issues and bugs.

    It would be so different if Daz had released this as DS5 and allowed us to run both DS4 and the new build side by side if we chose, but despite the fact that both builds are radically different, they're basically saying: you MUST have one or the other ... and if you don't have the one WE want you to have, then you won't be able to use many of the products currently releasing into the store. And THAT is what I find both unfair and extremely irritating, especially as a PC member. If I'm paying for the discount, I shouldn't suddenly be limited in what I can buy based on what works in the version of DS I'm running!

    I totally disagree with your way of thinking. it is "your" choice to not be able to use new products, not DAZs. "You" choose not to install the most current version of DS, you only have yourself to blame. There is nothing keeping you from using the latest products other than your choice in which version of the software to run.

    Why would you have to reinstall your whole library? just point the new version to your files.

    So basically if in fact the new format is so that the poser users can use genesis content with DSON, you would have them do without simply because you can't be bothered to move up to the latest build of DS?

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 2,535
    edited December 1969

    You feel forced to upgrade but isn't what your suggesting forcing content creators to do work multiple times without high odds of additional compensation for near double hours of work?

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,398
    edited December 1969

    LEI1 said:
    I really wish there was a workaround like this for macs! Is there any reason you can't do the same on MAC OSX? Unfortunately I'm not running Windows, but if I had the option to keep my current install untouched and just give DS4.5 a spin ... I certainly would.


    I dont have a Mac to test with to be sure if it will work but I do know that Mac and windows treat things differently so what works with one does not always work with the other (speaking of the file managers)

    Because I dont know what files will or will not be deleted, left behind or replaced with a newer version when you upgrade, I cannot suggest or advise you attempt an upgrade with my previous suggestion in mind.


    Brain storm... If I remember my Mac tech support from an old job, you can create a new account with admin privliges and install DS 4.5 to there and play around with the default content. Maybe copy over a few of your favorite items to just to compare. And the two different versions will not affect or overwrite one another. If I recall correctly. Please look that up online to verify you wont screw yourself over before following my idea. Please!

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Pendraia said:
    IIRC, doesn't it also allow autofit to retain the morphs in clothing? There were many improvements you just have to look at the version change list.

    Why do people lately react to any change they don't like by saying someone is trying to force them to do something...I just don't get it or see it that way. : (

    Staying with a particular version of DS is a choice made by the user. I've done it myself several times to make sure a new version isn't buggy.

    Wasn't the new format also to help create the plug in for Poser?

    I haven't updated all my files to dson...one day I might get around to it and everything seems to work okay for me.

    It's not good to generalize Pendraia :) because I can't speak for "people" I can only speak for myself and I actually don't dislike the change. If I had the option I would have tried DS4.5 right alongside my current build ages ago. What I dislike is the fact that I now can't buy/use certain DazO's unless I upgrade. And you're correct, upgrading is absolutely the choice of the user, or @ least it should be. If this upgrade was necessary for DS to function that would be one thing, but as improved as DS4.5 might be in certain respects, DS4 still works just fine for me.

    Isn't it my right to forgo the hassle and continue using the program that is comfortable for me without Daz forcing my hand by not including file formats that work for Legacy users with their products?

  • cwichuracwichura Posts: 1,000
    edited December 1969

    LEI1 said:
    My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn't be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It's never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don't really understand why it is the case now??

    I'm sorry, but that's a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade. The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ. Look at Microsoft with Office -- files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don't open in older versions. If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

    And your DS3 argument doesn't work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher. DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Khory said:
    You feel forced to upgrade but isn't what your suggesting forcing content creators to do work multiple times without high odds of additional compensation for near double hours of work?

    What I'm suggesting is that content creators continue to support many of the people who have supported them by purchasing their products and putting money into their pockets for a long time - like myself. I don't recall ever asking for Legacy content to be given away for free? I'm pretty sure my purchase of a product counts as compensation.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Mattymanx said:
    LEI1 said:
    I really wish there was a workaround like this for macs! Is there any reason you can't do the same on MAC OSX? Unfortunately I'm not running Windows, but if I had the option to keep my current install untouched and just give DS4.5 a spin ... I certainly would.


    I dont have a Mac to test with to be sure if it will work but I do know that Mac and windows treat things differently so what works with one does not always work with the other (speaking of the file managers)

    Because I dont know what files will or will not be deleted, left behind or replaced with a newer version when you upgrade, I cannot suggest or advise you attempt an upgrade with my previous suggestion in mind.


    Brain storm... If I remember my Mac tech support from an old job, you can create a new account with admin privliges and install DS 4.5 to there and play around with the default content. Maybe copy over a few of your favorite items to just to compare. And the two different versions will not affect or overwrite one another. If I recall correctly. Please look that up online to verify you wont screw yourself over before following my idea. Please!

    That would be awesome ... if it works of course lol. I will definitely contact mac support and look into this, it'd be worthwhile to at least try. Thanks for the suggestion Matty! :-)

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 11,616
    edited December 1969

    I think it's worth keeping in mind that this dilemma is not a whim or conspiracy. The reason that running both 4.0 and 4.5 on the same machine is very difficult to make work is not because DAZ 3D felt like making it difficult, but because it would have been a tremendous amount of work to make it something that could be done easily, reliably, and without introducing major instability. The reason that products built using 4.5 sometimes don't have legacy versions is that it would be a major increase in the amount of work required to do so.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,398
    edited December 1969

    I mentioned in another thread that a DAZ owned product may have been made by an PA at the request of DAZ3D and to certain specifications which support only the latest version of the software or a certain figure. Instead of the PA making it to their own specifications regardless of what they felt was better.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    LEI1 said:

    Just quoting my first post to clarify that I have no hopes of DUF becoming usable in DS4, at least not officially ... my biggest concern is that Daz Original (I'm not really speaking on PA products, because those are obviously at the discretion of the artists) products are coming out without any options for those of us who don't care to upgrade to DS4.5. I bear no personal grudge against 4.5, it sounds awesome in many ways! Just not awesome or ground breaking enough for me to re-install my entire library and deal with compatibility issues and bugs.

    It would be so different if Daz had released this as DS5 and allowed us to run both DS4 and the new build side by side if we chose, but despite the fact that both builds are radically different, they're basically saying: you MUST have one or the other ... and if you don't have the one WE want you to have, then you won't be able to use many of the products currently releasing into the store. And THAT is what I find both unfair and extremely irritating, especially as a PC member. If I'm paying for the discount, I shouldn't suddenly be limited in what I can buy based on what works in the version of DS I'm running!

    I totally disagree with your way of thinking. it is "your" choice to not be able to use new products, not DAZs. "You" choose not to install the most current version of DS, you only have yourself to blame. There is nothing keeping you from using the latest products other than your choice in which version of the software to run.

    Why would you have to reinstall your whole library? just point the new version to your files.

    So basically if in fact the new format is so that the poser users can use genesis content with DSON, you would have them do without simply because you can't be bothered to move up to the latest build of DS?

    Woah woah woah. Did I ever ask anyone to do without?! Lol, I think you've misunderstood quite a bit. I'm glad that poser users are back in the mix and I think everyone should have the freedom to move up to DS4.5 ... if they want to. I choose to stick with DS4 because it's more comfortable and I don't want to have to reinstall all my genesis content (which you MUST do, FYI) or clean up the duplicate errors, among other things. I don't think that's unreasonable. If this was a matter of painlessly upgrading and simply pointing to my runtime - no reinstalling genesis, no risk of big incompatibilities ... we might not even be having this conversation.

    I'm not on a soapbox preaching about support for DS2 here, we're talking about two builds that aren't even a FULL version number apart! I think it's silly that I even have to LOBBY that continued support be included as a default, for a release which is barely a year old.

  • LEI1LEI1 Posts: 0
    edited December 2012

    cwichura said:
    LEI1 said:
    My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn't be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It's never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don't really understand why it is the case now??

    I'm sorry, but that's a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade. The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ. Look at Microsoft with Office -- files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don't open in older versions. If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

    And your DS3 argument doesn't work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher. DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

    Well I think it's a load of malarkey that a build which came out a year ago is now considered to be in the doldrums of history :lol:. And my sense of entitlement is just fine with me, because it wasn't free, I purchased it many times over by patronizing Daz's store along with keeping a PC membership. And that is all I'm trying to CONTINUE doing really, buying things ... Apparently though, my money should be relegated into the doldrums of history as well. ;-P

    Post edited by LEI1 on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,210
    edited December 2012

    LEI1 said:
    mjc1016 said:
    LEI1 said:
    I've seen more and more DS4.5 only . I'm a firm believer in 'if it's not broken don't fix it' ... Even so, while I still don't understand why Daz created 4.5 so soon after releasing a brand new version number [DS4] and is now trying to force all of us to accept their new file format, I DO understand that people may want to use 4.5 and duf files. That's fine! Choice is a beautiful thing ... however why is it that legacy users are essentially being denied the choice to not upgrade?


    But that's where you are wrong. 4.5, not only adds new functionality...but if fixes quite a few problems in 4.0, not the least of which are some rather major 3Delight problems. Plus besides fixing the 3Delight problems (some of which were long standing ones, that finally were fixed in the last few updates to 3Delight), it has all the speed improvements those updates include. The latest beta version (which I haven't run) includes the 10.0.73 (I think...it's a 10.7 series) 3Delight, which includes even more speed enhancements (the 10.0.6x in 4.5.1.6 has significant speed improvements over the 10.5x in 4.0). Somewhere between a dozen and two dozen fixes, alone, from 10.5 to 10.6x, for 3Delight.

    Then there's the various internal fixes.

    A few of the 4.0 to 4.5 fixes:
    Fixed UV set load on very old scenes
    Fixed a crash issue when using transfer utility to transfer weights to a figure that was already active in the weightmap brush tool
    Fixed an issue where the Inherit Parent Scale option would remain set on bones that were formerly the root but are no longer when converting legacy content during Auto Fit

    Here's the ChangeLog...

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/change_log_4_5_1_6

    Plus, it had been about a year from when 4.0 was released to when 4.5 came out...(10/11 months or so...).

    To me the word broken suggest that something is unusable ... the 3Delight engine and DS4 as a whole is definitely not unusable. If you want to argue that improvements have been made that's another story which I'm in no position to disagree with. But seeing as I use it constantly I can confirm that nothing about DS4 is 'broken'.

    Did you even bother to follow the link to the change log?

    I don't think so...there were very real 'broken' parts of DS and 3Delight...one of the major ones was the Area light issue. It affected ALL area lights, not just Uber ones. The raytracing problem (well there were 2 of them, actually). One dealt with bounces being stuck at 2. In other words...NO MIRRORS. The second was with how shadows were calculated, especially with opacity (glass was one of the most noticeable things affected by this one). And that issue not only, unnecessarily extended render times, but in some cases caused excessive memory use, to the point of crashing 3Delight. (both of those affected all 3Delight users of versions between 10.0.50 and 10.0.63)

    So that's 3 actual fixes...NOT improvements...and there's more, if you delve into the change logs. That's in addition the the 3 fixes I listed before...and 6 is actually a very short list. That doesn't count ANY 'improvements'/new functions.


    My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn't be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It's never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don't really understand why it is the case now??


    I'm sorry, but that's a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade. The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ. Look at Microsoft with Office -- files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don't open in older versions. If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

    And your DS3 argument doesn't work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher. DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

    Well I think it's a load of malarkey that a build which came out a year ago is now considered to be in the doldrums of history :lol:. And my sense of entitlement is just fine with me, because it wasn't free, I purchased it many times over by patronizing Daz's store along with keeping a PC membership. And that is all I'm trying to CONTINUE doing really, buying things ... Apparently though, my money should be relegated into the doldrums of history as well. ;-P

    If you are actually sticking to a 2 yr dev cycle, it is...

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • 3DProclivity3DProclivity Posts: 0
    edited December 2012

    LEI1 said:
    cwichura said:
    LEI1 said:
    My point was that Legacy installers should be standard with all DazOriginal releases, not intermittent. We shouldn't be FORCED to upgrade to 4.5 just to use a product. It's never been the case before [ask the people still using DS3] and I don't really understand why it is the case now??

    I'm sorry, but that's a load of malarkey and just your sense of entitlement that DAZ must do what you want, because you are the one that refuses to upgrade. The entire software industry moves forward, not just DAZ. Look at Microsoft with Office -- files saved with new versions of Word/Excel/etc don't open in older versions. If you want the latest toys, you have to be on the latest software.

    And your DS3 argument doesn't work, either, since there is a lot of stuff that has been released that only works in DS4 or higher. DS3 users have been left in the doldrums of history, too.

    Well I think it's a load of malarkey that a build which came out a year ago is now considered to be in the doldrums of history :lol:. And my sense of entitlement is just fine with me, because it wasn't free, I purchased it many times over by patronizing Daz's store along with keeping a PC membership. And that is all I'm trying to CONTINUE doing really, buying things ... Apparently though, my money should be relegated into the doldrums of history as well. ;-P

    I provided legacy installers for my last release but it is highly unlikely that I will be able to do so in the future. Why not? The short answer is time, money, equipment, resources AND lack of features in those older versions compared to the newest one.

    Right now, I am running DS3 & DS 4.0 on my computer and DS 4.5 on my SO's system in order to upgrade my products. Soon I will upgrade MY DS to 4.5 and Poser to 2012 and that will be the end of my legacy files. Sometimes, it is not about supporting or not supporting past versions or being forced by ANYONE to do anything. The reality is that these three versions simply don't play well together anymore. It happens to most software at various junctures, even when the company really tries to make everything backwards compatible (certainly happened to Adobe several times with Photoshop). But you'd probably be hard pressed to find many Photoshop users who want to go back to PS 6 or 7 now. The feature changes really did give the majority of users tools they wanted, fixed problems, and more.

    As a vendor I kicked and screamed about upgrading until I realized something important about DS4.5. I can make better products with it! Please don't upgrade because you don't have any other choice. Upgrade so I can give you the best deal for your money.

    Post edited by 3DProclivity on
  • EbahrEbahr Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I've discussed this with some people before, and honestly it seems where some people get confused is with the numbering system this time around. 4.0 and 4.5 are very different animals, and 4.5 is a major revision above 4.0 in function and format. With the addition to the .duf format, and the fixes made, additional options, speed increases, etc. it is confusing in some regards why it wasn't released as a new generation (DS 5). If you consider DS 4.5 as DS 5 for the time being, instead, things tend to make a lot more sense: It's not common someone would expect products for a new generation to be made compatible for an older generation, at least not for long. Just the generation number tells you that processes have changed. So if someone were sitting here growling because Daz 4.0 products weren't working right in DS 3, or even DS 2, the response would be an over whelming "That product is longer supported. You need to upgrade or miss out on new releases, sorry." It'd just be foolish to expect a company to release products for a full generation back, when they have a new program to promote.
    Now let's look at 4.0 and 4.5 . Unlike DS 3 to DS 4, 4.5 just sounds like a simple upgrade from 4.0. It's a bit more more confusing to try and explain to someone that products from 4 and a half aren't compatible with 4, and that 4 doesn't even recognize the file format that 4 and a half creates (.duf). So if you look at 4.5 as a fully different generation instead of a variation of the basic 4.0, the lack of backwards support makes a lot more sense, IMHO.

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