what makes the Mona Lisa smile so special?

MistyMistMistyMist Posts: 15,183
edited December 1969 in The Commons

basically, how to make realistic facial expressions?

it's soo hard.

the perfect scene just falls apart if their expression doesn't rock.

a smile doesn't move just the lips - cheeks ball, eyes crinkle
how many billions of facial muscles are there? doh

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Comments

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 943
    edited December 1969

    I don't know... I never got the big deal about her smile... till I heard it pointed out that she is supposed to be smiling I never really noticed it... its so subtile, like she quietly passed gas and nobody noticed and she is more relieved than happy... she seems more... "not uncomfortable" than smiling.

  • MistyMistMistyMist Posts: 15,183
    edited December 1969

    reading the wiki on it. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mona_Lisa

    i need the artsy things spelled out for me, i like the painting but don't understand why.

    it says : The woman appears alive to an unusual measure, which Leonardo achieved by his new method not to draw the outlines, "mainly in two features: the corners of the mouth, and the corners of the eyes"

    the background looks like she's sitting in front of another painting.

  • fivecatfivecat Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Animators use mirrors to study their own expressions to add realism to their characters. We can read really subtle muscle movements in the face, which is probably why so many people are fascinated by the Mona Lisa. You need to use facial morphs other than just expression morphs to really capture an emotion.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,580
    edited November 2012

    fivecat said:
    Animators use mirrors to study their own expressions to add realism to their characters. We can read really subtle muscle movements in the face, which is probably why so many people are fascinated by the Mona Lisa. You need to use facial morphs other than just expression morphs to really capture an emotion.

    Agreed. Custom sculpted morphs is the best option. This vendor does it and you can see the difference it brings to the character.
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=348252

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    You can do one whole hell of a lot with the Head Pose Controls in Genesis... IMHO... not everything, but quite a bit.

    Smile.png
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  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,580
    edited December 1969

    I don't know why, but I prefer converted expressions from M4 and V4 over genesis expressions. There is something I do not like about genesis expressions. Will let you know when I figure it out LOL.

  • fivecatfivecat Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    You can do one whole hell of a lot with the Head Pose Controls in Genesis... IMHO... not everything, but quite a bit.

    That's nice, wancow. She's flirting a bit and about to smile. I wouldn't trust her though, lol.

  • MistyMistMistyMist Posts: 15,183
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    I don't know why, but I prefer converted expressions from M4 and V4 over genesis expressions. There is something I do not like about genesis expressions. Will let you know when I figure it out LOL.


    right? that's what i'm trying to say.

    we see an expression looks fake or toonish, but how to figure out exactly what it needs to fix it?

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,580
    edited November 2012

    Ignore

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,580
    edited November 2012

    The reality is that in real life everybody's facial muscles are different with regard to facial shape which gives them their unique looks and expressions. With these expression presets, you are applying a generic expression so that's why there is a level of unrealism because they are not specifically designed for that face shape. A good example of this is when you buy a celeb look alike character set. They look very much like the celeb at default state until you apply an expression. Why? Because you are applying a generic expression that isn't designed for that face.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    I don't know why, but I prefer converted expressions from M4 and V4 over genesis expressions. There is something I do not like about genesis expressions. Will let you know when I figure it out LOL.

    I"m sure that's true... And I'd REELY like to figure out how to add those to the Pose controls after converting them...

  • cjreynoldscjreynolds Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    The reality is that in real life everybody's facial muscles are different with regard to facial shape which gives them their unique looks and expressions. With these expression presets, you are applying a generic expression so that's why there is a level of unrealism because they are not specifically designed for that face shape. A good example of this is when you buy a celeb look alike character set. They look very much like the celeb at default state until you apply an expression. Why? Because you are applying a generic expression that isn't designed for that face.

    Then you're saying to get facial expressions for, say, a Jack Nicholson look-alike model, expressions that truly look like Jack, the only way is to get photographs of Jack himself, doing all those different expressions? (I know that sentence was crap - and English is my only language :) )

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,399
    edited December 1969

    Observation is key.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,580
    edited November 2012

    Zev0 said:
    The reality is that in real life everybody's facial muscles are different with regard to facial shape which gives them their unique looks and expressions. With these expression presets, you are applying a generic expression so that's why there is a level of unrealism because they are not specifically designed for that face shape. A good example of this is when you buy a celeb look alike character set. They look very much like the celeb at default state until you apply an expression. Why? Because you are applying a generic expression that isn't designed for that face.

    Then you're saying to get facial expressions for, say, a Jack Nicholson look-alike model, expressions that truly look like Jack, the only way is to get photographs of Jack himself, doing all those different expressions? (I know that sentence was crap - and English is my only language :) )

    In a nutshell yes. This vendor does that. Go through the promo images of the characters.
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=348252
    Each expression is custom made for the figure it was designed for.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • BagletBaglet Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    To me the best thing is to go for subtle expressions. People (adults anyway) are rarely wildly overjoyed or angry or whatever. Usually they're trying to keep things down, not cause too much fuss. Kids are more open because they don't have to play by the same rules.

    This set has some good subtle expressions:

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/100-essential-emotions-for-v4

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,928
    edited December 1969

    would be nice to see expressions made for male genesis. Many of the expressions available for genesis are rather feminine. I think that adds to the pool of Unrealism to genesis. Would be great to see facial muscles sliders too, individual ones. What really grinds my gears with the Gn expressions is that many of them do something wrong to the eyes... makes them look off. The upper eyelid just doesn't look right. It also annoys me when expressions are NOT sliders.

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 1,749
    edited December 1969

    The all-in-one expression sliders are good in small amounts when mixed with other single modifying sliders, but by themselves they are a little too fake looking.
    No facial expression is the same on both sides of the face while a dial that adjusts both sides of the face is easier to use you can still make minor adjustments with the dials that control one side or the other.

    Remember that sliders have negative values as well, don't' be afraid to use them.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,225
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    Zev0 said:
    The reality is that in real life everybody's facial muscles are different with regard to facial shape which gives them their unique looks and expressions. With these expression presets, you are applying a generic expression so that's why there is a level of unrealism because they are not specifically designed for that face shape. A good example of this is when you buy a celeb look alike character set. They look very much like the celeb at default state until you apply an expression. Why? Because you are applying a generic expression that isn't designed for that face.

    Then you're saying to get facial expressions for, say, a Jack Nicholson look-alike model, expressions that truly look like Jack, the only way is to get photographs of Jack himself, doing all those different expressions? (I know that sentence was crap - and English is my only language :) )

    In a nutshell yes. This vendor does that. Go through the promo images of the characters.
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=348252
    Each expression is custom made for the figure it was designed for.

    Especially the Stallone and Will Smith morphs...Bruce Willis is pretty good, too (it's him, from his days on Moonlighting...not really his current stuff, but younger).

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,366
    edited December 1969

    A lot of the time stock expressions just don't seem to look right to me, they always seem over-exaggerated and lack the subtlety of real world emotion. Getting the expression just right has been, for me at least, a case of either fiddling with sliders for ages or in some cases actually going in and manually adding my own morphs. I would dearly love to see some more subtle expressions available on the market for Genesis, as I'm sure others would as well.

  • ps1borgps1borg Posts: 9,830
    edited December 1969

    basically, how to make realistic facial expressions?

    it's soo hard.

    the perfect scene just falls apart if their expression doesn't rock.

    a smile doesn't move just the lips - cheeks ball, eyes crinkle
    how many billions of facial muscles are there? doh

    Less is more :)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    A lot of the time stock expressions just don't seem to look right to me, they always seem over-exaggerated and lack the subtlety of real world emotion. Getting the expression just right has been, for me at least, a case of either fiddling with sliders for ages or in some cases actually going in and manually adding my own morphs. I would dearly love to see some more subtle expressions available on the market for Genesis, as I'm sure others would as well.

    Frankly, I think we can work with the morphs we have, and perhaps add some from V4 to get most if not all of what we need... What I would very much like to see is a tutorial on how to make controller sliders, so we can add to the Face Pose Controls...

  • FauvistFauvist Posts: 364
    edited December 1969

    In Poser you can use the morph tool on the face to change the expression. You can import your render to Photoshop and liquify it and change the expression. You can import the figure into Sculptris and do all kinds of things to it. (don't ask me how)

    The "Mona Lisa smile" was a marketing gimick invented by art exhibors to instill a sense of mystery into the painting.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,366
    edited December 1969

    Actually, I did find something shortly after posting that in the Daz store which I made a point to buy. There's a bundle which has a very good range of subtle smiles and other expressions which work really well straight out of the box. If you want to check it out yourself, its the moods bundle.

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/animations-poses/expressions/moods-bundle-expressions-for-genesis

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Those look nice... but I still want to make my own dials...

  • TaozenTaozen Posts: 2,117
    edited December 1969

    basically, how to make realistic facial expressions?

    it's soo hard.

    the perfect scene just falls apart if their expression doesn't rock.

    a smile doesn't move just the lips - cheeks ball, eyes crinkle
    how many billions of facial muscles are there? doh

    The DAZ figures have never been good at smiling, at least not if you want them to show their teeth, which don't look very good IMO (been looking in vain for some good V4 teeth morphs). I guess that's why you rarely see them smile that way.

    The SM figures are much better in that respect, IMO. And RDNA has made some very good face morhps for them.

    Miki-Bianca-01.jpg
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  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,580
    edited December 1969

    I agree there are no flexible teeth morphs for V4. Also Any figure can get a beautiful smile, just depends what packages are available for that particular figure. Here is Genesis with a custom smile morph I made with one or two morphs from my upcoming Dental plan product.

    1.jpg
    723 x 762 - 235K
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,378
    edited December 1969

    V4, not genesis, and a quick tyr out render, but I thought I got quite a sbtle expression going on here

    First_try_new_V4.png
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  • BagletBaglet Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Here's another 2p's worth. A smile made with the Genesis face morphs and raw expressions. I don't have the expressions pack. A little assymetry thrown in to make her more real.

    smilingGenesis.jpg
    700 x 700 - 112K
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 3,580
    edited December 1969

    Yes, assymetry does add to the look. I mean our faces aren't even symmetrical. Neither are our smiles.

  • BagletBaglet Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    One of the problems is that people have become so used to near-symmetrical faces through film, TV and ad choices that it shapes the way we see the world. But the best photos by the top photojournalists go after character and that's never "perfect". I know that I always smile slightly to one side as I can feel the muscles pull that way.

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