Blender and DAZ figures

245

Comments

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 653
    edited December 1969

    Judging by what I see for sale here and at Rendo and RDNA, I think there are a lot of women using Studio and Poser. Lots of doll like characters, pixies and fairies. I don't think there'd be as much stuff like that if it wasn't selling. Seems to be someone mentioned some stats or info once in an earlier dustup on one of the old forums here.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,840
    edited December 1969

    And of course, don't forget the female Brycers.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 653
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    And of course, don't forget the female Brycers.

    Why of course! We can't forget you! ;)

    I think ease of use along with the artistic qualities play into this - you don't have to be heavily into tech to get things done in a lot of the more hobbyist oriented CG programs along with programs like Photoshop, Illustrator and the like.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,840
    edited December 1969

    I have to admit I do enjoy delving into the more involved parts of Bryce, but not to the extent of delving into the code as some do.

    Some Women are technically minded.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited November 2012

    mjc1016 said:
    ...As to Blender, specifically...how can you 'quantify' the typical Blender user, when the user base is so diverse?

    Thank you, I've been thinking exactly this since the beginning of this thread. To quantify any group of people with one set of characteristics is not only overly simplistic but a disservice to the community. It also builds walls between people, the same thinking that is often referred to as prejudice. Any community is a collection of values, very diverse. From my experience, the strongest characteristics of any community are only shared by 60% of the population at most.

    It's easy to look at characteristics that stand out when looking at a community of people (or animals, etc) but those characteristics partially stand out because they are stronger in the most vocal of the population, not because they are population wide to any massive degree. People like myself who find it hard to speak out often get underrepresented ;)

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 653
    edited November 2012

    chohole said:
    I have to admit I do enjoy delving into the more involved parts of Bryce, but not to the extent of delving into the code as some do.

    Some Women are technically minded.

    You join Holly, Cath (Mec4D) and Wendy as women here that I can think of quickly who are, and we should probably include all the women PAs, too! :)

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,820
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    Some Women are technically minded.

    My wife is not among them...and she freely admits that fact. She gets flustered if you change the desktop color scheme (now, if she changes it, then it's okay...but first she has to remember/be shown how...every time she wants to change it).

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited November 2012

    I know a lot of men who are the same way, even more so.

    Facebook post that seems appropriate.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,820
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    I know a lot of men who are the same way, even more so.

    Yeah...but I know very few mid-teens and younger, either gender, who are...

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited November 2012

    The issue with young people is that while they are comfortable with the technology, many are also comfortable with pfm as to how it works.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,840
    edited December 1969

    Yes. I have hopes for my Grandaughter though, as both her Mum and Dad are teccies. My Son was training Teccies in fact. Now, after redundancy he is currently at Uni as a mature student, studying for a BSc and teaching degree. He then hopes to teach IT, preferably to disadvantaged and learning challenged youngsters.

    My GD has grown up with a mouse in her hand, and is quite used to seeing computers in various stages of completion.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    chohole said:
    ...He then hopes to teach IT, preferably to disadvantaged and learning challenged youngsters...

    An admirable goal, society is lucky some people have such aspirations :)

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    As to Blender, specifically...how can you 'quantify' the typical Blender user, when the user base is so diverse? I guess the one item is individuality....

    Actually Andrew Price did a very interesting survey of Blender users a while ago, and posted a video of the results and his analysis on his website, blenderguru.

    http://www.blenderguru.com/the-big-issues/

    The average Blender user is a young male, 18-25 years old, a hobbyist, relatively new to Blender, who also uses 3DS Max, and tried Blender mainly because it's free. And less than 25% have made money with Blender.

    I kind of assumed that described pretty much the average DAZ Studio user, as well as the average Poser user. And probably the average Carrara user, too.

    It does not. Blender represents a very small, insular,and in some ways rigid community within 3d at large. I've gone to a few of the conferences locally. Usually I was the only female, and the other one was a Maya user who left partway through (which I finally did at the last one I attended; the moderator was a fairly hostile sexist). The art students in the area of the college that surrounded us were of both sexes, even though it was a 3d area.


    Gaming is almost half female now. A lot of that is social, admittedly, but all of those are women who participate in a 3d-based activity, and some of them are going to be interested in 3d art as well. Do not assume FPS gaming and porn - which skew heavily male in both users and developers - represent all of 3d.


    And as for Poser and DAZ Studio... Cookie. Chip. Mavka. How many 25-year-old males do you think are using those? I bet almost none. Yet these are and have been viable figures in this market. Why? Because women do use these programs, and many women prefer cute renders to pretty ladies in miniskirts. The fact that the "this stuff is sexist" argument even comes UP in these forums about all of the scanty content is pretty good evidence women are a significant demographic. I'd like to think that there are enough mature guys to be causing that effect, of course. It'd be nice.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 6,003
    edited December 1969

    Oh, and by the way, what the hell is a "mod"? It's a video game thing, right?

    It meant something very different back in the 1960's.

    Anyway, I see it mentioned a lot in the 3D world. I guess a lot of guys who play video games use CG software to make their own stuff for the games or something?

    I've actually never played a video game, so I'm clueless. Unless you consider a flight simulator a video game. But I got bored with that real quick.


    A mod is a plugin or add-on to a game that adds content or makes changes to the base feature set. When I modded for Oblivion, I added armors to the game that were darker and more appropriate for undead characters, and I created undead races to play. I use many mods for Skyrim that adjust the gameplay and leveling, add a neat house for my characters, add some more armor and quest options, etc.


    The Elder Scrolls series has been fairly mod-friendly since Morrowind, which is why many people have learned 3d in order to be able to use its toolset and add their own content to the games. With Blender, Max or Maya and the NIF script plugins, people could make things in their 3d program and add it to the game with a toolkit released by the videogames' developer. With Skyrim it's more difficult at present, but it's still around and the mod community is just as large as for previous games.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,820
    edited December 1969

    Oh, and by the way, what the hell is a "mod"? It's a video game thing, right?

    It meant something very different back in the 1960's.

    Anyway, I see it mentioned a lot in the 3D world. I guess a lot of guys who play video games use CG software to make their own stuff for the games or something?

    I've actually never played a video game, so I'm clueless. Unless you consider a flight simulator a video game. But I got bored with that real quick.


    A mod is a plugin or add-on to a game that adds content or makes changes to the base feature set. When I modded for Oblivion, I added armors to the game that were darker and more appropriate for undead characters, and I created undead races to play. I use many mods for Skyrim that adjust the gameplay and leveling, add a neat house for my characters, add some more armor and quest options, etc.


    The Elder Scrolls series has been fairly mod-friendly since Morrowind, which is why many people have learned 3d in order to be able to use its toolset and add their own content to the games. With Blender, Max or Maya and the NIF script plugins, people could make things in their 3d program and add it to the game with a toolkit released by the videogames' developer. With Skyrim it's more difficult at present, but it's still around and the mod community is just as large as for previous games.

    My oldest son is eagerly awaiting the updated NIFscripts...

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited November 2012

    Blender represents a very small, insular,and in some ways rigid community within 3d at large. I've gone to a few of the conferences locally. .

    Sounds like you and Gedd need to have a heart-to-heart. :)

    According to her, "to quantify any group of people with one set of characteristics is not only overly simplistic but a disservice to the community. It also builds walls between people, the same thinking that is often referred to as prejudice."

    And by the way, Gedd, I think you're being a bit short-sighted and overly simplistic in your analysis....

    If you owned a business, you'd understand that it's very important to UNDERSTAND who is buying your product. VERY, VERY important. If you want to make money so you can feed your children, and pay your employees so they can feed their children, it's important to know what your customers want so you can provide it. Otherwise they won't buy your product.

    So how do you do that? You study your customers. You find out who they are, what they like, what they don't like, etc. And hopefully, when you study your customers, you can detect general trends in the types of people and their wants and likes and dislikes. Why? Because your products can't be everything to everybody. So you need to determine general trends. It's also called a 'target market'.

    And you begin to understand how, for example, males tend to be different in many ways than females. That's not a bad thing, it's a fact. Men TEND to enjoy some things that women don't. Women TEND to enjoy some things that men don't. There's nothing wrong with that, it's the way we were made. Or hatched, or whatever you believe. And there's no reason to feel threatened by that. Different is not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

    I find it funny how the same people who tout the importance of understanding and appreciating peoples' differences are often the same ones trying to prove how un-different women are from men.

    Is it a disservice to the community to recognize that 60% of your customers are male and prefer 'shoot 'em up' video games to more social-oriented games that women might prefer? No, it's not. Now, you may be able to design a video game that is a social-oriented game, while at the same time being a 'shoot 'em up', and cater to both audiences, but probably not real effectively.

    It's not prejudice, or anything close to it. And I think it's shameful to even imply that.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited December 1969

    I've owned businesses for longer then I care to admit. That post was actually over harsh on my part so for that I apologize. However, understanding a customer base is understanding the 'typical' customer and target market. That does not presuppose that the market is made up soley or even predominantly of that 'typical customer' rather that the projected typical customer being used in setting up market plans is a represntation of a market segment that will be focused on. That is totally different then assigning that typical customer to an entire group of people. As for conferences, again... there is a base of people that go to conferences that are a 'subset' of the community at large. They are a significant subset usually but they are a subset.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited November 2012

    Gedd said:
    That is totally different then assigning that typical customer to an entire group of people. .

    So who in this discussion was "assigning that typical customer to an entire group"? Maybe I missed it.

    And I agree, to go to a couple local conferences and extrapolate from the people you encounter there that you are seeing the "typical user" probably doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited November 2012

    Well as I said, my post was a bit overly harsh. In no way were my comments referring to any specific posts but meant as generalized statements, and only personal opinions at that.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • IsamuDysonIsamuDyson Posts: 27
    edited December 1969

    I was doing a search for Daz to Blender solutions and found this. I know the thread is a bit old but couldn't help but comment because I know that some of the views held in here are more than likely still held.

    Some of you who think that the CG community don't believe in pre-made content are nuts. You live in your own little world. Have you heard of Turbosquid? How about blendswap? For as long as I can remember there has always been a market for pre-made content. Both free and paid. Hollywood even uses these assets. DAZ and Poser did not invent the idea. It's probably that preexisting market that inspired DAZ and Poser to create their products in the first place.

    I think that Blender users would use DAZ content if there was an exporter that worked perfectly. Also, the poly-count of DAZ characters are very high. In Blender, that means running into memory issues. Blender has what's called a Subdivision Surface modifier that lets the mesh have a higher poly-count when rendering, freeing up resources. The same with the Multiresolution modifier.

    No one I've ever talked to looks down on DAZ and Poser users. Many of us use multiple tools including DAZ Studio and Poser. I think some of you are making the same mistake you accuse others of. And unfortunately, it's the case with every product around. People develop loyalties to preferred products to the point of being closed to learning other tools that can broaden their tool set and abilities. Then look for reasons to excuse their ignorance by inaccurately characterizing others in the CG community. Then instead of working together, we're isolated.

    The pros, on the other hand, know that you work with the tools that get the job done. And that's why they make money. Keep in mind that Blender is designed to create content from scratch and there for requires more technical skills and training. So, many who use Blender are going to be more focused on content creation. While DAZ focuses more on giving you, the director/artists, the virtual actors, props and sets to create images for films, stories, comics, etc. So DAZ will naturally attract less technically minded artists but be more user friendly.

    If DAZ and Poser content was more Blender friendly (memory efficient and a working exporter) then you'd probably see lots of Blender artists use DAZ/Poser content. I know I want to. Hopefully, we'll see that bridge develop soon. But, if we all keep looking down on each other and form these myths about one another, then it'll be later than sooner.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,473
    edited May 2013

    Well some of what you refer to does still hold, but there have been a few discussions since this in other threads so this thread doesn't necessarily reflect accurately on where people are at now. Also, the comments about different groups such as Blender groups come directly from interaction in other forums. This group far from lives in it's own world, the artists here use content creation tools and participate in various forums. After all, someone has to make the content, and they don't do it in DAZ or Poser.

    There are some active Blender users here and discussion regularly goes to Blender. Many believe as you do that if there were more links to other programs it would help DAZ as a whole. Hopefully moving forward in future versions of DAZ we will see that happen. Meanwhile there are some here who are working on solutions themselves specifically related to exporting to Blender. (Importing is pretty straightforward, just adding all of the DAZ stuff like rigging takes some learning.)

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited May 2013

    Some of you who think that the CG community don't believe in pre-made content are nuts. You live in your own little world. Have you heard of Turbosquid? How about blendswap? For as long as I can remember there has always been a market for pre-made content. .

    Yeah, you're right...funny how many people tend to characterize entire communities as one monolithic group with identical attitudes....y'know, kinda like you're doing. Implying that the entire CG community "believes in pre-made content" or welcomes it with open arms is, well, equally nuts.

    The fact is that there are many different attitudes out there. Some in the "CG community" think that pre-made content is for people who just want a "make art" button and generate pretty pictures without doing any work or having any skill. And in many cases, those people are right. Not all, but clearly many.

    Others, often rightfully, disregard premade content because it is rather limiting in terms of the specialized needs of professionals. Much of it just isn't designed in a way that many professionals need. And some professionals welcome pre-made content, and recognize it as just another asset they can use in some (rare?) circumstances to save time and money in their productions.

    But keep in mind, while that does happen, it is relatively rare, especially in the larger studios, because most of those facilities have special requirements for everything in order for it all to work smoothly with their in-house processes and software, etc. And from an artistic perspective, often there is special customization that is required that just isn't available with pre-made content. For example, let's say you had a main CG character who was going to speak. Most pre-made characters just aren't designed for the level of facial animation that professionals need, so it would be much easier to just make and rig their own characters from scratch. And really, where high level, custom "assets" are required, usually there are highly qualified and skilled artists available who can generate those assets in fairly short order, so it's really not that big a deal.

    Anyway, there is a wide variety of attitudes out there, and characterizing the entire community by just one of those attitudes is just not accurate.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • IsamuDysonIsamuDyson Posts: 27
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Well some of what you refer to does still hold, but there have been a few discussions since this in other threads so this thread doesn't necessarily reflect accurately on where people are at now. Also, the comments about different groups such as Blender groups come directly from interaction in other forums. This group far from lives in it's own world, the artists here use content creation tools and participate in various forums. After all, someone has to make the content, and they don't do it in DAZ or Poser.

    There are some active Blender users here and discussion regularly goes to Blender. Many believe as you do that if there were more links to other programs it would help DAZ as a whole. Hopefully moving forward in future versions of DAZ we will see that happen. Meanwhile there are some here who are working on solutions themselves specifically related to exporting to Blender. (Importing is pretty straightforward, just adding all of the DAZ stuff like rigging takes some learning.)

    It's good to see some have changed their views. The living in ones own world was addressing the idea that the Blender community or any other community, object to using pre-made content. "Some of you who think that the CG community don’t believe in pre-made content are nuts. You (the people specified in the previous sentence) live in your own little world." A person would have to be in their own world if they really believed that. When I was learning how to use 3ds-max's animation tools I used models from the Star Wars 3d modeling alliance. Even the "3ds-max Bible" encouraged people to use already made models. So, it wasn't directed at DAZ and Poser users in general or even content creators.

    And don't let a few loud mouths talking down to you about using DAZ and Poser reflect on the whole community. The ones shouting the loudest seem to make the Blender community look like a bunch of anti-capitalist, communists. But a little trip over to Blender Cookie will show how many of us don't mind paying for content and lessons. Open source isn't just about free. It's about developing tools that anyone can contribute to allowing lots of experimentation.

    "The pros, on the other hand, know that you work with the tools that get the job done. And that’s why they make money." This was in reference to content creators (DAZ, Poser, Films, TV, etc.), so I'm not sure why you thought my comment was in reference to all DAZ users (of which I am one) or content creators.

    I think DAZ Studio would benefit from a few movie shorts like what the Blender Foundation has done. This would turn heads and show it's a valuable tool. I'm using DAZ Studio and Blender to put together story boards and pre-vis animations. At the moment I use McjTeleBlender to port scenes over to Blender so I can setup lighting, materials and rendering. I'm also using Blender to create vehicles, buildings and props. Hopefully, I can get down to making custom clothing and proper rigging, as most of the content on DAZ wouldn't work for what I'm wanting to do. I want the world I'm creating to be unique. But, one step at a time. Hopefully, DAZ Productions will develop better tools for porting characters to other programs. Being able to port a full rigged character with all the morphs and weights in tact would make me giddy.

  • IsamuDysonIsamuDyson Posts: 27
    edited May 2013

    Yeah, you're right...funny how many people tend to characterize entire communities as one monolithic group with identical attitudes....y'know, kinda like you're doing. Implying that the entire CG community "believes in pre-made content" or welcomes it with open arms is, well, equally nuts.

    Anyway, there is a wide variety of attitudes out there, and characterizing the entire community by just one of those attitudes is just not accurate.

    I think your reading things into my post. Who said anything about the whole entire community shares the same opinion? Where in my post was that said? As a matter of fact, I was pointing out the opposite. And that pre-made content has been used for many years before DAZ or Poser. Show me were any of that is incorrect. You failed to quote anything I said that suggest what you claim I said. You need to slow down and think about what someone says before jumping to conclusions. And see post above.

    Post edited by IsamuDyson on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited December 1969

    I think your reading things into my post. Who said anything about the whole entire community shares the same opinion? Where in my post was that said? As a matter of fact, I was pointing out the opposite. And that pre-made content has been used for many years before DAZ or Poser. Show me were any of that is incorrect. You failed to quote anything I said that suggest what you claim I said. You need to slow down and think about what someone says before jumping to conclusions. And see post above.

    Dude, you said "...Some of you who think that the CG community don’t believe in pre-made content are nuts. You live in your own little world."

    Which clearly implies, if not states, that you think ANYBODY who believes the CG community, as a whole, doesn't believe in premade content is nuts and living in their own little world. And I explained a few reasons why believing that is NOT nuts. Why are you confused? It seems awfully clear to me.

    Fine, if now you want to back-pedal and say you think it's not nuts to believe that, then great. I really don't care.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited May 2013

    I think DAZ Studio would benefit from a few movie shorts like what the Blender Foundation has done. This would turn heads and show it's a valuable tool. .

    That is a very common sentiment. But as people here keep learning, it's FAR easier said than done. We've had many aborted attempts to make a short film here, the most recent one died a few months ago. Most people here are not professional artists or filmmakers, nor are they familiar with the skills and requirements to actually MAKE a short film. In fact, I'd guess that most people here think that being able to operate Carrara IS the only skill and requirement necessary for making a short film. Usually the effort dies because nobody can agree on even the most basic requirements, like a story line, or theme, or purpose and goals. And few people are willing to actually do what is necessary to make the effort succeed, like suppress their own desires and egos and work in a team effort.

    So while it's a nice idea, it ain't gonna happen. People have been talking about it for many years, but the effort usually doesn't last more than a few weeks of discussion and argument, with people storming off in a huff because they can't get what they want.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • IsamuDysonIsamuDyson Posts: 27
    edited December 1969

    I think your reading things into my post. Who said anything about the whole entire community shares the same opinion? Where in my post was that said? As a matter of fact, I was pointing out the opposite. And that pre-made content has been used for many years before DAZ or Poser. Show me were any of that is incorrect. You failed to quote anything I said that suggest what you claim I said. You need to slow down and think about what someone says before jumping to conclusions. And see post above.

    Dude, you said "...Some of you who think that the CG community don’t believe in pre-made content are nuts. You live in your own little world."

    Which clearly implies, if not states, that you think ANYBODY who believes the CG community, as a whole, doesn't believe in premade content is nuts and living in their own little world. And I explained a few reasons why believing that is NOT nuts. Why are you confused? It seems awfully clear to me.

    Fine, if now you want to back-pedal and say you think it's not nuts to believe that, then great. I really don't care.

    If you believe, the community "as a whole" does not believe in pre-made content then, yes, you are nuts. Now, if you said, a large segment of the community is against pre-made content then I'd leave you to your opinion. But the very existence of DAZ and Poser shows that the CG community does not believe that pre-made content is bad. Pick up any CG magazine and you'll see companies selling highly detailed models to be used in films, television, games, etc. Whole businesses are built around this kind of service. Among many other services, such as motion capture, pre-vis, etc. Nobody, said that being against pre-made content is nuts, but rather the idea that saying the community as a whole is against pre-made content is nuts. DAZ and Poser wouldn't exist if that were true.

    In film and animation, there are people who model, texture, handle lighting, rig, animate, etc. All of that is "pre-made" by different people so the director can focus on the story. That is what pre-made content does for many people in the trade. Very few people are a jack of all trades. Even the software being created is seldomly used by the software creators themselves.

    I'm under the impression that you think I said that anyone against pre-made content is nuts. Which is not the case. We all have our different workflow. What works for one doesn't for another.

  • IsamuDysonIsamuDyson Posts: 27
    edited May 2013

    That is a very common sentiment. But as people here keep learning, it's FAR easier said than done. We've had many aborted attempts to make a short film here, the most recent one died a few months ago. Most people here are not professional artists or filmmakers, nor are they familiar with the skills and requirements to actually MAKE a short film. In fact, I'd guess that most people here think that being able to operate Carrara IS the only skill and requirement necessary for making a short film. Usually the effort dies because nobody can agree on even the most basic requirements, like a story line, or theme, or purpose and goals. And few people are willing to actually do what is necessary to make the effort succeed, like suppress their own desires and egos and work in a team effort.

    So while it's a nice idea, it ain't gonna happen. People have been talking about it for many years, but the effort usually doesn't last more than a few weeks of discussion and argument, with people storming off in a huff because they can't get what they want.


    That's unfortunate. It would probably take DAZ Productions to head it up, in order to make it happen. You have to have a producer who can keep people focused. Some money behind it would allow it to happen. Hiring a director from outside the community who has the skills to take the best of the community and well, direct them. The Blender Foundation has that advantage. It could be a great advertisement tool for DAZ.

    Post edited by IsamuDyson on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited May 2013

    .... the CG community does not believe that pre-made content is bad. .

    Okay, well maybe English is your second language or something, but I think what you INTENDED to say to say was this: "While some in the CG community might dismiss premade content for various reasons, both legitimate and not-so-legitimate, many in the CG community believe that pre-made content is good. In fact many are big fans of premade content".

    Because by saying "....the CG community does not believe..." it clearly implies that you are talking about, and FOR, the entire community in general, and describing a general trait of the community, which applies to a MAJORITY of the community. So unless you are the designated spokesman for the CG community, you might want to clarify your statements.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,563
    edited December 1969

    It would probably take DAZ Productions to head it up, in order to make it happen. You have to have a producer who can keep people focused. Some money behind it would allow it to happen. Hiring a director from outside the community who has the skills to take the best of the community and well, direct them. The Blender Foundation has that advantage. It could be a great advertisement tool for DAZ.

    I agree. What you've described is using skilled professionals to make a very slick production that wows people. Because the way this community works is that if they see an awesome short film that looks really awesome, they assume "wow, if that's what Carrara can do then if I just buy a copy of Carrara I can do that too!!!" And then they download it and realize that it will take years of learning and building their skills before they can even attempt anything like that, and they give up. But at least they bought a copy of Carrara, which I suppose is the goal.

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