Weight map symmetry

rekrek Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in Daz Studio Discussion

Hi

I've been looking into rigging and weight painting in Daz Studio lately.
For the most part I'm happy with the way things work. I get results I'm happy with, and will probably use Daz Studio more than Blender for rigging in the future.

However, I can't quite seem to get weight map symmetry to work as I want. I'm not sure it's something I do or if it's a bug I should report. The issue is this. I have a human figure which I'm weight painting. Bones for chest/torso, shoulders, neck and head (and others, of course). Poly groups and selection groups set up and working. I have been weight painting one side of the neck and been using the weight map symmetry command to copy the weights to the other side of the neck. This was working fine.
On the torso I started doing the same - painting weights between the torso and shoulder on the left side with the idea I could use the symmetry command to copy the weights to the right side of the torso, on the X axis. I can not get this to work. Nothing changes on the right side when I choose left to right in the weight map symmetry dialog. If I choose to copy right to left in the dialog - the 'wrong' way - weights copy fine.

I can bring the mesh over to Blender and fix it there, but If I'm doing something wrong in DS, I'd like to know and learn from it. If this is a bug, I'd like to report it. So I'm wondering if others have the same issue.

Comments

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited November 2012

    Hi rek...

    I'm not sure why it's not working for you...

    I just ran through all of the symmetry options (using 4.5.1.6) and they all work just as they should, painting on the right and copying to left and vise versa... painting within the selection group and way outside of it...

    Have you tried using the Symmetry option from the Tool Settings pane?

    It's a real time symmetry, so as you paint on one side of an axis, it paints on the other... I find it very handy for many areas...

    ...

    Okay, I had an idea just now and tried it... if I held down Ctrl to reduce the weight and then used the symmetry command... it did not work, however, if I held down Alt to reduce the weight and then used symmetry, it did work...

    I can't remember right now ( it's 2 am and I'm falling asleep %-P ) what the difference is between using Ctrl and Alt other than, using Alt will allow you to paint an area all the way to zero whereas Ctrl doesn't... but Ctrl does work with Symmetry enabled in the Tool Settings pane...

    Hope this helps... :)

    edit

    Post edited by niccipb on
  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    Hi,,nicci,, I hope,, If you teach more discribe and detail please,,,,(of course,, after you sleep well, ^^;,)
    because,, I watching ReDave cute dug and his challenge,,then try rigging for "Mindvision teddy bear prop" now @@;

    about,, "Weight map symmetry" yes,, it worked,, when I do not weight oposite node,,,
    just weight map only one side node , then use "weight map symmetry" it copy weight map to opositte node.
    (It apply weight map too, even if I did not apply each map yet for the node)

    but if I have already weight mapped (eg before I used it for transfererd clothing, it has already weighted.
    then I adjust it and use symmeter to copy opositte node,, it corrupted,, when I tried it.
    so if need to remove opositte node weight map,, then use it,, I think it may work well.
    or if it need to perfect symmetly shape?

    about tool Setting , weight map Symmetry option, I can not understand well too .

    I tried weight map Symmetry option when adjust weight map to plevis or abdomen,,(not having oposite bone)
    but it worked randome for me,, so I gave up to use it. may I need perfect symmetry obj to use this tool?
    (or it must need perfect symmetly shape? fter transfered clothing ,, often loose perfect symmetly )

    and I want to know about the Mask option "Positive and Negative,",
    it seems protect the other side,, when I weight mapped,, but I can not understand
    how it work. @@; (if understand clearly,, my teddy need not to test the option,, ^^;)

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  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Thank you both for your answers.

    @niccipb. I forgot to say I'm using Daz Studio 4.5.1.6. More importantly, I forgot to mention I use a Mac. Which might make a difference here.
    I haven't tried the real time symmetry option in the weight brush tool. But I am new to Daz Studio and overlooks quite a few functions still. :) I'll try it and report back how it goes.
    I hope ctrl/command and/or alt/option works as it should on the mac. I don't think the sensitivity slider does entirely.

    @Kitakoredaz. I experience the same thing when I try to use the "Weight map symmetry..." command on the mesh for one bone. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Except, as I said initially, when I used in on the neck and head of my figure. Maybe it has to do with the proximity of the polys to the bone? I'll have to try it out with real time symmetry.

    Again. Thanks for the tips. I'll try them out and report back.

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    thak you rex,, because I need to know about symmetry too.

    I think you know well already about “Weight map symmetry" (not real time symmetry option on weight map tool )

    but it may not work about node(bone) which have no opositte node.

    to use "symmetly weight map" , I need pair bone which has opositte node name. and may need symmetly rig positon.
    and symmetly vertexs. ( if it has not keep symmetly,, may work random I think^^;)
    the tool can copy and paste with symmetly , to opositte name node. when you use it.

    eg I painted "r-arm" . X-rotaiton weight. then to copy weight map of x rotation to "l-arm" .
    or "left wing" all weight map copy to "right wing."

    or I colored every "r" or "right" node , 3 rotation and scale or buldge ,,,weight map.

    then use it with all figure option.
    ds will copy every node weight map to opositte node. but it need the opositte name bone.

    ds simply check the "r" or "l", and "right" or "left" ( I did not try other pattern name,, because there is no discribe,
    how to name bone to work symmetly option,, about ds 4.5^^; do you find it? )
    .
    ( it has no matter how you assign face group about each node, about weight map or symmetly.
    as you know.it just work for select node in 3d view.)

    for color weight map on one node with keeping symmetlly,,
    as nicci said,, there is real time "symmetry option "on weight map tool setting tab.
    in my picture,, I checked the tool "?" ^^; .

    it may work as mask , when you color around (-3, 0, 0) vertex for X rotaite weight map of neck node,,
    it may color around (3.0.0) vertex. with same weight syncronize,,, when you set X mirroer,,

    (but I can not use it well at all ^^; so if all is wrong,,,, so ask him or beteran user ^^;)

  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    AH, I think you might be on to something with the bone name thing. I might not have set it up correctly as far as DS is concerned. In Blender, which I used to create the model, I use a different naming method to get mirroring to work. I used mirroring when modelling on this figure, so the verts and polys are excactly the same from left to right.

    I'm going to have to try out the things you guys have suggested and see if I can make it work. I'll come back and tell how things go. :)

    Fingers crossed, and thanks for the advice! :D

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi rek... Hi kit...

    Sorry for not posting sooner, we are super busy today at my workplace since it's the day before a holiday...

    I can't go into to much detail right now, but when I get home tonight I run through some experiments and examples...

    I also use Blender for all of my modelling and setting up vertex and material groups... and every now and then DS does not seem to like the name(s) I give to a group, and makes it's own additions to the name(s)... or on occasion, even created whole new groups... that's annoying... :-/

    The Change Log does mention a fix to a potential error in weight painting symmetry, but I'm not really sure what the error was that they fixed

    Well, I have to go, I have a Rep here I need to see...

    nicci... :)

  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Yeah, I see the same thing with poly groups when I import Blender models. It's become part of my import process to clean up the mess I'm left with. :) Some of the added poly groups seem to have names 'loosely based' on the material groups set up in blender.

    I tried real time symmetry but with no luck as Daz either crashes or does nothing. I kept the crash log, and I'll file a bug report for this.

    For this particular model, I have now tried any combination of names for the relevant bones to see if I could get the weight map symmetry command to work. I even named the poly groups/selection maps accordingly even if, as I understand it, this should not be necessary. No luck. SOMETHING happened, as in some weight values changed on the bone on the opposite side, but not in any useful or expected way. The issue I have with mirroring weights from one side to the other for ONE bone is also still the same. For the neck on my model, I can use symmetry to copy weights from left to right, but not for the chest bone. (Right to left works, sort of, but I happen to have painted the left side and want copying the other way.)

    I also tried removing weight maps for bones and added 'empty' ones without any effect. I tried removing weight maps, leaving the option to add missing maps checked in the symmetry dialog. No maps were added. No maps were changed at all anyway I tried.

    I also went back to Blender, made a copy of a section of the same model - chest, shoulders, upper arms and neck - which I then imported into DS, cleaned up polygroups for, converted to figure and added bones to. For THIS model, weight map symmetry worked... But not for the original one. :(

    The difference between the two is that for the original one, I filled weights from selection set(s) (Is that what it's called?) before I started to tweak the weights manually. For the second one I did not do this - I started manually painting weights from the start. As far as I recall, this is the only difference in how I set things up.

    Oh, well. Something is not working correctly here, but I don't know what exactly.... As long as I can use Blender to mirror things I'll manage.

    Thank you both, again, for help and tips. :)

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi rek...

    I figured out that it is Blender that is messing up the groupings in .obj's... like you said, the material groups are being combined with the vertex groups to create new groups... I read through the .obj and those extra groups are in there... re-importing the .obj into blender showed the messed up groups also... what a PITA... :coolmad: I spent hours tonight messing with it on a simple figure that should have taken less than an hour to do... :roll:

    Anyways... I agree with you that something is not working correctly for you... might be Mac specific bug, maybe not... I'm not sure, because I can't get mine to break, and I have it installed on a few computers... all PC though... 32 bit Win 7...

    On the little guy below ( this is what I threw together to test on ), I tried all the different ways to apply weight maps and use symmetry, including the methods you listed in your post...

    I wish I could be of more help to you with this problem, but a bug report is probably the best bet, unless someone else knows what might be causing it...

    If you need any other help or tips, don't hesitate to ask... I'm always willing to share what I have learned, as are others... ;-)

    nicci... :)

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  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Cute little guy :)
    Thank you both nicci and kit. No worries - I'll be back asking again. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute a little as well.

    I think I will report this. I would have liked to pinpoint the cause a bit better, tho. I'll link to this post for some clues and ideas for the devs in any case.

    The Blender export error should probably be reported to the Blender bug tracker. Maybe it is already in there?

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    uh,, sorry,, rec use Mac,, if it is bug with Mac,, I can not try at all.
    because I have only One pc, 64bit windows 7 OS which can use for 3d hobby
    (though my graphic boad is ,,,AMD (TT) so sometimes it stop or shut down )

    aaannnddd,,,,,,,so,,,,nicci,, can I ask you some question still in this topic ^^;

    I believe you have tried already,, in tool setting tab (choosing weight map blush)
    symmetly option ? how it work? I belive it can only work when you paint weight map of one node,,
    (not paint another node weight map ) so,, what is means,,, these positive,,negative mask option ?

    and,,

    eg
    I wight map for neck bend ,, (x rotation weight map,, may be,,) then apply buldge map too for X rotation.
    then I find the weight map is not keep symmetly coloer,, left side and right side,,about neck bend.
    but about right side seems better than left side,,

    so I hope to copy and right side area weight and mirroer paste to left side area of neck,,
    is therre any good way?

    sorry,,, rek has not yet desolve his problem,, I hope you can remove problem,,
    then forgive me,, to use my question,, on this topic still

  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    It's ok that you can't test if it's a Mac bug. :) I'll report it and refer to this thread. If I didn't misunderstand you, you also have issues with symmetry sometimes? Maybe it's a 64 bit thing? We'll see if it gets looked into.

    I also don't mind you asking nicci questions. You ask, and I learn. That's a good deal, I think. :)

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi kit...

    The Symmetry option in Tool Settings will, in real time, add or remove weight as you paint on one side of an axis line... it doesn't matter if it is a single node, ie: neck, or a l - r node, ie: left or right arm...

    So if you select the left forearm node and have Symmetry enable for the X axis, as you paint, the corresponding map on the right node will receive a mirrored paint... if you select the right forearm node and then the map, you should see the painted map...

    On a single node, you should see the mirrored painting as you paint...

    Okay, as for the mask options...

    Think of a 3D plot graph, like in math... one side of an axis is positive and the other side negative... the masks work the same way...

    If you select none... you can paint on either side of an axis line and the mirror will appear on the other side

    Positive, and you can only paint on the left side of the X axis, and the right will receive the mirror

    Negative, only on the right side of the X axis, and the left is mirrored

    It's the same on the Y and Z axis' , and this is based on the World grid axis lines... not the object

    The Mask center line option is exactly that... it puts a mask on the axis center lines that will not allow you to paint, so any vertices that lay on the axis line will be locked, and you cannot add or remove weight on the selected axis center line...

    The sensitivity setting represents the percentage of full weight that will be applied with each brush stroke across a vertex...

    The Respect facet selection option makes any selected faces the only areas that can be affected by painting... it works okay for adding weight, but spotty for removing weight...

    Some additional things to keep in mind is that you will spend a lot of time jumping back and forth between the Weight Brush tool and the Polygon Editor, because some weight operations will require having faces selected to perform them... others won't work if faces are selected...

    When you do have faces selected and use an operation that requires selected faces, you can only paint within the selected faces, and if you use the 'smooth selected faces' option, the smoothed map will not transfer through symmetry while the faces are selected...

    Another tip, as you are painting a map, move the joint in the parameters to the full rotation so that you can see how the weights are effecting the mesh... and use the weight or smoothing brushes on the bent joint to adjust the bend of the mesh...

    Oh, and if you encounter weighted vertices that just refuse to be removed... try holding down Ctrl and paint over them, this will add weight, then hold down Alt and paint away the weight... I don't know if this is how it is suppose to work, but it works for me... ;-P

    DS has a lot of different ways that you can paint weights and rig a Tri-Ax figure, and you might not use the same methods on every project...

    For the most part, I really like the fact that I have all of those options available... the down side is... I have to many options available... %-P

    Hope this helps... and ask any questions you may have...

    I'll try to answer as best as I can, and my answers and methods may not be the only ones, or the best ones... ( just a little disclaimer... ;-) )

    nicci... :)

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited November 2012

    >The Symmetry option in Tool Settings will, in real time, add or remove weight as you paint on one side of an axis line… it doesn’t matter if >it is a single node, ie: neck, or a l - r node, ie: left or right arm…

    ah,,,so it open weigth map symmetry window,,
    when I filled select face gruoup right eye,, for one node rotation,, . I understand,,
    now I check,, muuu it can use if I want ..(but I may be use,, manually ,, weight map symmetry,,

    then,, thank you much,, negative,, and positive,,,ah,,, it iis about which side,, I use when mirroer option,,
    I understand clear,,

    I misundersttood, it must be,, weight map positive,, and negative,, ^^; but not touch it.. before.

    and,,,ha ha,, now I check all your advices ,,, actually I used most of them,,

    yes,, I often change tool for select face by rasso or rectangle..
    (so I have though it seems easy ,,we can select face without change tool setting,, eg right click to select faces rectangle or russo mode,,
    or drug mode,, do not you think sooooooo? though,,there are short cut key to change tool,, )

    and need to delete weight,, often use ctrl and alt with brush.

    these are,, must be good tutoriall about weight map tool ^^ not only about mirroer option,,

    maybe,, next,,,buldge map,, and,, rigidity group,,, no no,, it s joke^^;


    anyway,, thank you much,,nicci,, now my teddy can satnd up,,move ear,, and ,, move noze,,
    but not rotate so hard ,,about neck ^^;

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  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    I'm glad it worked for you... your Teddy turned out great... sooo cute... :)

    Yes you can right-click with the weight brush and select faces, I do that too...

    Just remember though, that when you use rectangle or lasso select, that it also selects any faces that are within the selection area of your view... think of it this way... if you set the view port view to wire frame, any vertices that you can see that are in the selection area will be selected regardless of where they are on the figure and can be affected by your painting... so use those selection modes carefully... ;-)

    Bulge maps are pretty simple really...

    What they do as far as I can tell, and what I use them for, is to correct areas of the mesh that become indented by the joints weight map when you rotate the joint...

    In other words, if you where to rotate an arm down, and part of the mesh on the arm and/or chest where to deform inward do to the influence of the weight map, and adjusting the map doesn't fix it... then you would use a Bulge map for that rotation... You paint it in the areas that are deformed to pull the mesh back out...

    You do the same for each axis as needed... The beauty of the Tri-Ax system is that each of the rotation maps and bulge maps work in unison when you move a joint along multiple rotation axis'...

    Rigidity maps... well that's something else, and a process in it's self... :P

    But the basics of them are to protect the shape of parts of a mesh, ie: buttons, buckles..., from distorting or changing shape when Shape morphs are applied to the figure, and unless something has changed that I don't know, they do not work with joint rotations... wish they did...

    nicci... :)

  • ReDaveReDave Posts: 815
    edited December 1969

    I haven't had much success with symmetry, but my bones aren't named according to the rules. Brush symmetry works but for some reason I thought of it as a rotation system so it didn't work as I expected until I realised my mistake.

    niccipb said:

    I can't remember right now ( it's 2 am and I'm falling asleep %-P ) what the difference is between using Ctrl and Alt other than, using Alt will allow you to paint an area all the way to zero whereas Ctrl doesn't... but Ctrl does work with Symmetry enabled in the Tool Settings pane...
    Apparently Ctrl turns the brush into a Blur kind of brush (just like a Blur brush in 2D editing), while Alt removes weight, so it works like an eraser to continue with the 2D analogy.

    Your teddy bear is great Kikakoredaz!

  • kitakoredazkitakoredaz Posts: 1,973
    edited December 1969

    Hi!"" ReDave,, how your work going?!@@;

    actually,, I thoguht to reply and tell something which I know about weight map,,
    when check your challenge with much interesting^^;

    but if I said wrong things,,,,so,, I hesitated.

    then,, good timing,, req reported about wight map symmetly,,and I could not grap it well,, so ,, reply here,,
    I hope,, if you check this topic too,,,, it can some help for you .

    then,, your handmade brid,, is,, actually really really,, so,, cute ^^;

    if I did not check your topic,, maybe I never planned weight map about teddy or animal,,
    I usually,,just reform and weight map clothings to fit,, for genesis character ,,, ^^;

    first,, I planned to try with handamde toy or animal,,
    but I can not make good figure by myself still. so just remake prop for V4 wear @@;
    it is not originlal,, but I am happy,, before I could not rig prop to figure,, ,, thanks ReDave.

  • ReDaveReDave Posts: 815
    edited December 1969

    I'm not a very good modeler, actually. The duck comes from ShareCG. ;)
    Rigging has always interested me, but I tried it only once before (Poser legacy format). I must say the new rigging is great!
    I used to make monster renders but one day I started using the duck to test DAZ Studio's features, and now I use it without thinking.
    I'm very glad it inspired you!!!

    I also just found out that the Ctrl/Alt weight brush modifiers have a dedicated space for customisation in the Customize window (F3). It's located at the bottom of the window (click Weight Map Brush instead of the default View Controls) and Alt is supposed to be "Constrain gradient" (?!). No idea what the other selectable options do (apart from Substractive Painting, which is easy to figure out), but I'm going to try if I can think of a suitable thing to rig.

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    ReDave said:
    Apparently Ctrl turns the brush into a Blur kind of brush (just like a Blur brush in 2D editing), while Alt removes weight, so it works like an eraser to continue with the 2D analogy.

    Thanks ReDave... :-)

    I knew Ctrl was doing something, I just couldn't tell what that something was... lol...

    nicci... :)

  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I like your teddybear, kit! :)

    Regarding deleting weights. On the mac (again :)) I have to press the modifier key to add weights first, then press the modifier to reduce weights as well to delete weights. Have you tried this?

    I don't quite remember which keys I use for this. I press a bunch of them at the same time. :) I have to press different keys than on a windows pc since the modifier keys on the mac are often used for other system funcitons.

    As a side note. I thought at first the sensitivity slider for the weight brushes was broken. Turns out that on the mac version of DS, the funcitons attached to the brush icons are switched around, but the settings are not. Thus, I have to press the smooth brush icon to get the regular weight brush, but to change settings for it, I have to press the regular brush icon and change settings. :)

  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Oh, btw. I made a bug report for the symmetry issue I started the thread with. I attached a scene file with a model for which symmetry does not work for me. Perhaps some of you could have a look and see if you can get symmetry to work, or to see if maybe I have done something wrong with the model?
    (And be kind regarding the model. I'm not the best modeller, and it's a work in progress :))

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi rek...

    I took a look at your bug report and I would be more than happy to take a look at the model and rigging that you are having issues with...

    but there is just one little problem... you only uploaded the .duf scene file, you didn't include the .dsf geometry file... ;-)

    you can find it in your My Library folder here > /data/auto_adapted/testTorso_2130/geometry_9b51329f_daf5_9b8e_e79b_b3d3e666cb92/testTorso.dsf

    The Devs will probably need it in order to check for the problem...

    nicci... :)

  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Ah, right! That's not confusing at all, is it?!?! :P I wasn't aware things are organized in this way in DS. How bizarre. DSF file is now uploaded. Let me know if I need to upload anything else. :)

    Thank you nicci.

  • RenpatsuRenpatsu Posts: 802
    edited December 1969

    rek said:
    I like your teddybear, kit! :)

    Regarding deleting weights. On the mac (again :)) I have to press the modifier key to add weights first, then press the modifier to reduce weights as well to delete weights. Have you tried this?

    I don't quite remember which keys I use for this. I press a bunch of them at the same time. :) I have to press different keys than on a windows pc since the modifier keys on the mac are often used for other system funcitons.

    As a side note. I thought at first the sensitivity slider for the weight brushes was broken. Turns out that on the mac version of DS, the funcitons attached to the brush icons are switched around, but the settings are not. Thus, I have to press the smooth brush icon to get the regular weight brush, but to change settings for it, I have to press the regular brush icon and change settings. :)

    You can modify the keys used for the different brush types via "Customize" menu and then selecting the "Weight Map Brush" tab below. One problem on Mac though, DAZ Studio does not seem to accept all keys there, e.g. it won't accept "fn" modifier for mine. "cmd" works fine however, but I still removed some "View Controls" movement/rotation key shortcuts to make room.

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  • rekrek Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for the tip, Renpatsu! I tend to stay with the default shortcut keys in programs, and usually manage ok, but maybe I should have a look at that.

    Also, since you use a Mac, have you had issues with "Weight map symmetry..."? As in it only working sometimes?

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi rek...

    So I have just started looking at your figure and.... hmmm... symmetry is not working the way it should on it....???? :roll:

    I'm going to do some more work on it a little later, trying a few things :P

    I will let you know how it goes...

    nicci... :)

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