pose presets should NEVER SCALE the figure!

wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
edited December 1969 in DAZ Studio Discussion

... or any part of the figure!

At the very least, scaling when one selects to save a pose preset should be disabled by default!

GGRRRRR

Having to go in, select to disable it for every part of every finger is just plain TEDIOUS and makes saving a pose absolutely unpleasant.

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Comments

  • cridgitcridgit Posts: 823
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    ... or any part of the figure!

    At the very least, scaling when one selects to save a pose preset should be disabled by default!

    GGRRRRR

    Having to go in, select to disable it for every part of every finger is just plain TEDIOUS and makes saving a pose absolutely unpleasant.



    One could be forgiven for including morphs and scaling in a freebie pose, but for paid-for products in my opinion that is simply plain unacceptable, and something DAZ QA should be on faster than a batwink at harvest moon.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    My problem is this: I make a LOT of poses! and I mean a LOT! And I very often need to take a pose from one character and put it onto another.

    Since things are the way they are, I often have to copy that pose from scratch, because it is LESS WORK to do that than to fix all the crap that happens to a different character when I save a pose as a pose preset and apply it.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Oh, and as I recall, poser was just as bad when I had it. (the last version I had was Poser 6)...

    The point is, why is it that so many years later, this is still a problem?

  • cridgitcridgit Posts: 823
    edited December 1969

    If you use PoseMaster to copy/paste poses you can transfer a pose without morphs or scale in under 1 second, even between different figures :-)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    That would be great... but what if I want to archive the pose because I know I'll use it again?

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    okay,, yah, a work around using Pose Master would be to paste it to default genesis... then archive the pose...

    But I still say Pose Presets should never have scaling applied by default.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,413
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    okay,, yah, a work around using Pose Master would be to paste it to default genesis... then archive the pose...

    But I still say Pose Presets should never have scaling applied by default.


    No they should not.

    And XYZ translations should never be done from the hip either but it still happens.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    That's true... but it's not nearly as annoying as scaling.

    Just a note on XYZ from the hip: I always use a null and parent all the conformed stuff with the figure under that, and move that around instead of everything else...

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,413
    edited December 1969

    For myself and poses I sell, I tend to do all primary figure rotation from the hip cause it is the pivitol point of the human body but ALL translation is done from the top level.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    If I were doing animations, I'd do exactly what you do. I don't sell anything, and so far I haven't distributed any poses... the main reason for not distributing poses is because of the problem with fixing them for distribution. It's simply too much work! IMHO, character creation is the easiest part of this, and it should not be. Posing should be.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,413
    edited December 1969

    Do you create your poses from scratch or are they based off of other poses?

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Most often, from scratch. And usually when I've got a character loaded. I almost never create one with default genesis loaded because mostly the pose is based on the character I'm working with. I do use some of the poses that came with V5 and M5 on occasion. But I always play with them after.

    The best example I can show you of where I ran into serious problems was in this image:
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2336104&user_id=647585&np;&np;
    (warning, nudity)

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,413
    edited November 2012

    How are you saving the poses - DSF or DUF format?

    If you're not careful you can easily save scale data with those.


    The Poser Format Exporter works in DS4 and DS45 and you can easily avoid saving Scale data with it.

    Post edited by Mattymanx on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited November 2012

    The only way I see of getting rid of scaling when saving a pose (Save As: Pose Preset) is in the Pose Preset Options to go in and deselect the scaling for every single part...

    The only way I know how to save a pose is to Save As: Pose Preset.

    I'm saving them in DS4.5 now, so they're DUF files.

    Please tell me if there is an easier way of doing this :)

    Post edited by wancow on
  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,413
    edited December 1969

    With Duf format, if you click on the options menu (square box in the upper right) you have multiple options. Choose first to deselect all then go back and choose to save all rotation and all trans. The other option is to save modified only BUT that presents a problem since it will ignor 0 values.

    Or you can just use the PFE and save them all as PZ2 files since they will still work with Genesis too.

  • genejokegenejoke Posts: 66
    edited December 1969

    what's the best settings for saving poses? in a way that doesn't save anything other than the pose that s, sometimes I have issues and not sure what I'm doing wrong.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Okay, I found it... in the middle of a render (in which your own glass materials are coming in VERY handy) so I'll test those out later.

    Thanks, Matty!

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    genejoke said:
    what's the best settings for saving poses? in a way that doesn't save anything other than the pose that s, sometimes I have issues and not sure what I'm doing wrong.

    It would depend on what figure your saving for.

    When I'm saving for Genesis, which I never do for anything else, since I only use Genesis, I save poses under People/Genesis/Poses/wancow/ All poses I have are under People/Genesis/Poses/ cuz that's where they go :)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Okay, that does work.

    However, what do I need to select to get the Pose controls to be incuded? (Head-Neck on the head and the arms and waste controls on the body...)

  • MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 574
    edited December 1969

    Ideally, scale would be treated as part of shaping, rather than part of posing. Unfortunately, some programmer made a decision that made sense to him a decade or more ago, and we're all stuck with the consequences forevermore.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,413
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    Okay, that does work.

    However, what do I need to select to get the Pose controls to be incuded? (Head-Neck on the head and the arms and waste controls on the body...)


    Transforms would be what to also check off. But I am not sure what else it is going to bring along with it.

  • wsterdanwsterdan Posts: 619
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    ... or any part of the figure!

    At the very least, scaling when one selects to save a pose preset should be disabled by default!

    GGRRRRR

    Having to go in, select to disable it for every part of every finger is just plain TEDIOUS and makes saving a pose absolutely unpleasant.

    Absolutely agree.

    When vendors first started selling poses in the dawn of Poserdom, it was a major problem with purchased poses; it was so bad that 3DUniverse was able to sell a program just for fixing bad pose files:

    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/poserepair

    Eventually, pose vendors got better and for the most part pose packages were much safer to buy.

    With Genesis, though, we seem to be back to square one, for many of the reasons mentioned upthread.

    It's obviously possible to make poses without problems morph-wise (all of DAZ's "Basic" Female, Male, etc. poses, for example) but the majority of the pose sets I've purchased are very annoying when using customized characters.

    If anyone would come out with a script or program to batch-fix pose sets, I'd purchase it in a heartbeat.

    In the meantime, I'm considering boycotting pose sets; where once they saved me valuable time, they save less time when I have to rescale heads or reposition figures.

    -- Walt Sterdan

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,413
    edited December 1969

    A pose set that is designed for a particular figure or character morph will need to be tweaked if used with a different figure or character morph. Genesis is no different. Different shapes require different rotation values of the nodes inorder to accomplish a near identical pose.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,447
    edited November 2012

    Mattymanx said:
    ...And XYZ translations should never be done from the hip either but it still happens.

    Ok, why should 'xyz translations never be done?' It seems that in cases of 'goto' poses, couple poses, etc.. translating from the hip would be the best place to do a base translate from.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    because the body node is the base node. When the hip is translated, the body node still shows it's coordinates to be 0,0,0. That makes it difficult to locate in the scene. I'm with Matty. IMHO the Hip X,Y,Z translate should be locked by default. I'm not sure, but I think X,Y,Z rotate on the hip should also be locked, as I don't see a reason for it to ever be used... though Matty may disagree there... he did some sleeping poses, and I'm not sure which node he used to rotate the figures into position.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,447
    edited November 2012

    Well I was originally translating from the base model, but I might have changed to hip, it's easy enough to do. When one rotates from the hip it gives entirely different results then rotating from the base model. Rotating from the base model is useless in many cases, try it. The pivot point is at the feet and behind the character so that it makes it impossible to do fine adjustments accurately when rotating. This little bit of information made a major difference in my doing more complex poses once I had figured it out. Since translating from hip and base model gives the same physical result, and rotating from the hip makes more sense for control it would be easy to translate from the hip. I can see why one would not want to however if it gives the 0.0.0 coordinates on the body node, but tbh that would seem a minor inconvenience at worst.

    My workflow when creating a pose is to position the base model vertically horizontally with translation and then rotate 'from the hip' to the base angle the pose calls from, working out from there on rotations. Technically at that point, rotating from the model wouldn't matter as much as the model can be adjusted easily enough with translations, but once into the pose, doing minor tweaks in rotations from the base model is disastrous to the pose. I had a pose I submitted to the beginner contest in posing (forget the month) where there were two characters doing a complex Cirque du Soliel pose and I would challenge anyone to attempt to do that pose only rotating from the base model. If not bald before, they would be by the time they finished ;p

    The result was, once I discovered that, I start all of my global character rotations from the hip for consistency, since for me it is more confusing to have base rotations in two different locations. In summary, I would even go so far as to say that one of the keys to advanced posing is rotating from the hip.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    What you could do is this, when your working, lock the rotations for the body and lock the translations for the hip. Only unlock the when absolutely needed. I'm going to take my own advice and do exactly that and see how it goes.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,426
    edited December 1969

    The standard is to perform translations for the pose, to place the feet on the floor or to position figures for multi-figure pose sets, via the hip. That leaves the root free to be used for placement poses to set the figure or figures in an environment - if you have a group ose you can use the same placement pose on each member without disturbing their relative positioning.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,447
    edited December 1969

    Thank you very much for this clarification Richard. This makes good sense and will come in very handy :)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Okay, so I'm adapting a pose I downloaded from ShareCG. Here's what I have to do to get it to work right.
    http://www.sharecg.com/v/55659/View/11/Poser/Nonchalant-V4

    I'm planning on using 02 or 02a

    Here's what I had to do:

    Load the pose to Genesis. (the hands and feet were fine, I'm wondering if this was fixed as well, didn't have to use AdamR's fix script)
    Adjust the pose so that it fits (in this case, I'm using the Genesis Female)
    Save the Pose Preset.
    DESELECT all (left click on the button just below the end frame field on the right of the dialog box)
    Then select all ROTATIONS
    Accept.

    I had to reload the Genesis female for this reason: The downloaded pose resets the figure's origin point. So I reload the figure, apply the pose I just saved, and adjust the BODY translation, legs and feet so they're touching the floor. Then I resave the pose, deselecting all then selecting rotations and translations.

    IMHO, this is an acceptable level of discomfort when dealing with V4 poses... not so tedious that I can't do a series of them in an hour or so... Hell, I may start using other people's poses again :)

    Thank you everyone who helped me out.

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