Better Renderer?

2

Comments

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    I did my part as witnessed by the tutorials in my sig which I will gladly donate.

    Anyone want to volunteer their time for this?

    Unpaid and requires time but many people will be grateful.

    Whose with me? *smile*

  • Kendall SearsKendall Sears Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    RKane_1 said:
    I did my part as witnessed by the tutorials in my sig which I will gladly donate.

    Anyone want to volunteer their time for this?

    Unpaid and requires time but many people will be grateful.

    Whose with me? *smile*

    I didn't mean to imply that you (RKane_1) weren't helping, as we all can see that you are. Trust me when I say that I'm busy helping in other ways and that I will help with docs when I'm done with these other things.

    :-)

    Kendall

  • SprinklesSprinkles Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I think the problem is that most of us simply don’t know enough to write a tutorial.

    I can do the basics, and I slowly am learning bits and pieces, but for me I find it’s easier to buy a lighting set than to find a tutorial which may or may not explain lighting in a way I can understand.

    Most of the time I read tutorials and still think huh?

    I need Daz for dummies complete with pictures, and in the main people who write the tutorials believe that things they think everyone knows (like exactly where something is) we don’t.

    Add to that different layouts so that things really are in different places and you compound the problem.

    Sparkles

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited December 1969

    Sprinkles said:
    for me I find it’s easier to buy a lighting set than to find a tutorial which may or may not explain lighting in a way I can understand.

    I think this is part of the overall practice for Daz consumers and Daz as a vendor.

    As a vendor it cost money to have a dedicated technical writer. Documentation makes it easier to find solutions but why spend money there when you know that SOMEBODY will figure things out and sell the solution to others. Especially when you make money off sales of that solution most of the time. I am not saying Daz does not facilitate things like a wiki or even these forums but proper documentation is far from their strong suit. Even with good documentation doesn't mean as many people will read it as they say initially, so selling presets is a viable solution. You can actually learn a lot from them as well.

    And we as consumers have proven we are willing to pay for presets.

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 1,811
    edited December 1969

    Lighting for Daz Studio using 3Delight by maclean.
    http://digilander.libero.it/maclean/DStutorial.htm

    If lighting is your week point, and it was mine I found switching to LuxRender for the majority of my projects was a turning point in my renders looking as though they were not planed out by the morlocks, but that was my shortcoming, not the fault of a rendering engine that does work four countless other pros and hobbyists alike.


    I think it might help if we had a matrix of rendering engine options for deployed software, for instance (and this is a total "shoot from the hip" response:


    DS3.1.2.32 Rendering Engines:

    • 3Delight 8.5 (internal or stand alone)
    www.3delight.com

    • LuxRender 0.7 - 0.9 (using Reality 1.x), 0.9 - 1.01 (using Reality 2.0), 0.7 - 1.0 (using LuxRenderDS)
    www.luxrender.net
    http://preta3d.com/reality-2-0/
    http://tofusan.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2011/06/luxrenderds-eab.html

    • Octane ver x.x
    http://render.otoy.com/

    • PovRay ver x.x
    http://www.povray.org/

    • Cycles (using blender 2.6.x and Casual's exporter.)
    www.blender.org
    https://sites.google.com/site/mcasualsdazscripts/mcjteleblender-for-ds1-2-3-4

    If there was a list like this for DS3, DS4, Poser, etc. it might make a useful resource of what is available and how it works.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited November 2012

    Only challenge with a complete list is that in theory anything that rendering solution that can open OBJ could be included...

    And for the purposes of the OP I think presets would be a good start. Lighting and material tutorials are very technical and I find they are easier to understand after playing around with presets for a while. Let me find a link

    Ok
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/5320/ -Uberenvironment talk

    There used to be a link to adamr001 uber light preset which was just a flat white which was good to start with. Can't find it.

    EDIT: Here is the link Post that has his preset http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/5320/P30/#67987

    Granted this is just a flat white setup, and for me the specular was too high. But regardless if you are starting without a lot of experience seeing how this was set up can help things make more sense.

    The link StratDragon posted is supposed to be a good one, I've seen it referenced a lot.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    Sprinkles said:
    I think the problem is that most of us simply don’t know enough to write a tutorial.

    I can do the basics, and I slowly am learning bits and pieces, but for me I find it’s easier to buy a lighting set than to find a tutorial which may or may not explain lighting in a way I can understand.

    Most of the time I read tutorials and still think huh?

    I need Daz for dummies complete with pictures, and in the main people who write the tutorials believe that things they think everyone knows (like exactly where something is) we don’t.

    Add to that different layouts so that things really are in different places and you compound the problem.

    Sparkles

    I actually learned how to morph by writing my tutorial. I started making step by step instructions, copied and pasted bits from other threads, asked questions of experts ( as JoeQuick, Rbtwhiz, Richard Haseltine, etc can all attest, I am a persistent questioner) and then used trial and error. I learned SO much writing the tutorials.

    I recommend finding a topic you are unclear on and using this method. It is quite educational. Learn by teaching.

  • KaribouKaribou Posts: 888
    edited December 1969

    It's funny... the more I re-read this thread, the more I ask myself, which platform do I use more, and why? The answer, for me, is simple. Since I find them both easy to use and capable of the render quality I'm after, it all comes down to speed. With a third party render engine, the speed question is moot -- Lux will render the same scene to the same quality in the same amount of time, regardless of whether it was created in DS or Poser. So the render engine can certainly affect quality, but doesn't really affect render time.

    Firefly in Poser is just much faster than 3Delight in DS. Sure, you can tinker with render times by using other engines, but for me, when I'm working on something where I know I can achieve quality without 3rd party support, I almost always choose Poser, simply for time's sake. I wish I had my benchmarks and images in front of me -- I can post them later -- but the render time difference for me is startling and obvious. I love Genesis, but I rarely rendered her/him/it, because DS was so very slow. I knew I could export to Poser and render there, but it was a pain until DSON came about. As more DSON content becomes available, I'll use more Genesis. If some kind of autofit script comes out for Poser, then I won't use much DS at all -- not because I don't like using the program, but because I don't like waiting for renders. But DAZ is probably smart about that -- since DS is free, it makes its money from content. And if it can now get its content into Poser, it will sell more.

    If that changes, my program preferences might change, too.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited December 1969

    Speed isn't an issue for me with Daz studio but I turn off raytracing hair and transparencies. Not a problem for me but I know some people can't live without. I haven't had a multi-hour render with DS in several months. Most are less than 20 minutes and I'm on an I5, nothing fancy. When I left raytracing and occlusion on fairy wings it was painful.

    I don't use external renders for speed, I stay internal for that. I did some test renders using the RIB format and the stand alone 3DL and even though it's only the dual core free version it ran nearly as fast as rendering via Studio on a quad. So even though the standalone is limited in processors it is still useful for those who need to batch.

    But I don't even do that cause it's still slower for me.

  • StratDragonStratDragon Posts: 1,811
    edited December 1969

    Only challenge with a complete list is that in theory anything that rendering solution that can open OBJ could be included...

    And for the purposes of the OP I think presets would be a good start. Lighting and material tutorials are very technical and I find they are easier to understand after playing around with presets for a while. Let me find a link

    Ok
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/5320/ -Uberenvironment talk

    There used to be a link to adamr001 uber light preset which was just a flat white which was good to start with. Can't find it.

    EDIT: Here is the link Post that has his preset http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/5320/P30/#67987

    Granted this is just a flat white setup, and for me the specular was too high. But regardless if you are starting without a lot of experience seeing how this was set up can help things make more sense.

    The link StratDragon posted is supposed to be a good one, I've seen it referenced a lot.


    I thought of the obj possibility as soon as I hit send, it opens a can of worms in terms of well, lots of worms to choose from. I think any list would need to concentrate on internal solutions to Studio but an explanation of the OBJ or COLLADA or whatever format export process for other applications would benefit as well.

    the maclean thread is very straightforward. A new user can grasp it and it does not require getting too deep to try out.

  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,474
    edited November 2012

    All of the debate about 'real' rendering engines and 'not for professionals' reminds me of the same arguments about Microsoft operating systems.

    Not all potential becomes realized potential, but I wouldn't discount potential in anyone or anything too easily.

    That being said, never forget.. Blender is out there ;p

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • GeddGedd Posts: 2,474
    edited November 2012

    ... I almost always choose Poser, simply for time's sake...

    Well put. For me, the DS interface works better, and that makes a big difference for me and my ability to use the tool. Being Free now (again :)) is also a big plus as in other ways there are +/- both ways. If Poser was free, I probably would use it also. It's probably just as well it isn't in my case as I already have plenty to learn/play with between DS, non commercial versions of Maya/3DS.. Vue, Blender, etc... Btw, I did have various versions of Poser, 1-5... never used them much, and I am a fan of Kai's interfaces generally. Bryce's for instance is kooky, creative and fun. His Power Tools were very nice also if anyone hasn't checked them out (owned by Corel last I knew of.)

    As for Bryce, main reason I don't use that at the moment is it's 32 bit and the development of it has fallen behind VUE (as it is currently frozen) so I am inclined to spend my time learning VUE.

    Post edited by Gedd on
  • AkhbourAkhbour Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Instant coffee, instan beer, instant success ...

    How long does it take to become a good carpenter?

    How long does it take to learn how to play the guitar?

    How long has it taken Rob to become the programmer he is now?

    How long has it taken Stonemason to become as good as he is now?

    How long has it taken theSea to become as good as he is now?

    How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited December 1969

    Akhbour said:
    Instant coffee, instan beer, instant success ...

    How long does it take to become a good carpenter?

    How long does it take to learn how to play the guitar?

    How long has it taken Rob to become the programmer he is now?

    How long has it taken Stonemason to become as good as he is now?

    How long has it taken theSea to become as good as he is now?

    How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

    Well I don't think you need to know everything about the render engines to get a good output. You don't need to even master the subset of features you use. Nothing wrong with going that route if you like, but it doesn't need to take years to get good(i suppose that also depends on the person).

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,933
    edited December 1969

    Akhbour said:

    How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

    I can answer that one...

    How long is eternity?

    Because, as long as render engine is still being developed there are going to be new things to learn.

  • AkhbourAkhbour Posts: 0
    edited December 1969


    Well I don't think you need to know everything about the render engines to get a good output.

    Of course not, you buy the light preset, the shader preset and even the camera preset and you have the instant render.

    You don't need to even master the subset of features you use.

    So how do you know what to do when your scene is made for a sunny day but you want to use it for a rain scene? Pavements does not look the same when dry or wet. That is only one subset.

    Nothing wrong with going that route if you like, but it doesn't need to take years to get good(i suppose that also depends on the person).

    Some people learn faster than other, no doubt, but you still have to learn how to use your tool. Be it months or years, you still have to sweat at least a bit.

  • AkhbourAkhbour Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    Akhbour said:

    How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

    I can answer that one...

    How long is eternity?

    Because, as long as render engine is still being developed there are going to be new things to learn.

    And even if they stopped development today, what would be your guess?

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,933
    edited December 1969

    Akhbour said:
    mjc1016 said:
    Akhbour said:

    How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?

    I can answer that one...

    How long is eternity?

    Because, as long as render engine is still being developed there are going to be new things to learn.

    And even if they stopped development today, what would be your guess?

    About two weeks less than that...

  • AkhbourAkhbour Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    So you are a programmer! ^_-

    I have to work harder than that to even understand what is written in the manual!:)

  • KaribouKaribou Posts: 888
    edited December 1969

    Speed isn't an issue for me with Daz studio but I turn off raytracing hair and transparencies. Not a problem for me but I know some people can't live without.

    I'd be one of those people. I prefer AO effects on hair, and if you are using raytraced shadows or reflections... well, they're bald if RT is off! lol. You are right, of course, that there is always a trade-off between time and render bells-and-whistles. I guess I meant that Poser renders the bells-and-whistles faster. 'Cause, apparently, I'm a bells-and-whistles kind of gal. :D


    How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?


    Point taken -- mastery only comes with time and practice. But, I suppose that's the point. I prefer to master the skills I already have a good grasp of, rather than forging into foreign (and sometimes frustrating) territory. Some of us just don't have a lot of time, and a long learning curve is a real hurdle for me. I think my goals are best met by improvement through baby steps that don't require months of practice that I don't have.

    When I said that my choice of render engines came down to time, I meant that I found the best balance of time and quality (for me) is Poser. I could often get better quality with Lux or Vue or even Carrara, but the time isn't worth it to me. Besides, It took a lot of time to learn these platforms, even in a rudimentary way. If I want to achieve mastery, I will pick one and focus on it.

    How long does it take a single mother to raise twins, one of whom is autistic? Lol! Answer: far too much to leave many hours for hobbies!! :P

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited December 1969

    Akhbour said:

    You don't need to even master the subset of features you use.

    So how do you know what to do when your scene is made for a sunny day but you want to use it for a rain scene? Pavements does not look the same when dry or wet. That is only one subset.

    I was debating if people would understand what I meant by "master". They say it takes something like 10,000 hours to master something, but well before then you have other stages of good and very good that should be enough to satisfy and even impress.

    You should definitely become familiar with what you use, but mastering it isn't a requirement to reach a satisfying level.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited November 2012

    Speed isn't an issue for me with Daz studio but I turn off raytracing hair and transparencies. Not a problem for me but I know some people can't live without.

    I'd be one of those people. I prefer AO effects on hair, and if you are using raytraced shadows or reflections... well, they're bald if RT is off! lol. You are right, of course, that there is always a trade-off between time and render bells-and-whistles. I guess I meant that Poser renders the bells-and-whistles faster. 'Cause, apparently, I'm a bells-and-whistles kind of gal. :D

    When I use the external renderers I tend to go with the bells and whistles and deal with the rendering time. Largely because I do not do much post to more realistic stuff.

    But with more typical stuff I like to retouch the hair manually and make it more organic and less canned 3D looking so I've learned it is a waste for me to render with AO and RT in the hair. I do leave shadow casting on though LOL. I know my system isn't for everyone but I'm just illustrating there are different ways to approach things.

    I completely understand your point about learning too many tools though, I am very cautious not to over extend myself so i tend to spend months brooding over whether I should learn new plugings/software and if I REALLY need to.

    Here is an example of some hair I rendered without bells and whistles and I filled it out a bit with painting. Not realistic at all but I enjoy the style.

    cautious_charm_wall_by_larsmidnatt-d4ykh59.jpg
    900 x 506 - 177K
    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,933
    edited December 1969

    Akhbour said:
    So you are a programmer! ^_-

    I have to work harder than that to even understand what is written in the manual!:)

    I haven't done any programming (except for some simple scripts) in many years.

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,842
    edited December 1969

    larsmidnatt thats really nice love the vibrancy of the colours.
    Do you render the hair seperately or with the figure or both?

  • AkhbourAkhbour Posts: 0
    edited December 1969


    Akhbour said:

    How long will it take to learn how to fully use a render engine?
    Point taken -- mastery only comes with time and practice. But, I suppose that's the point. I prefer to master the skills I already have a good grasp of, rather than forging into foreign (and sometimes frustrating) territory. Some of us just don't have a lot of time, and a long learning curve is a real hurdle for me. I think my goals are best met by improvement through baby steps that don't require months of practice that I don't have.

    When I said that my choice of render engines came down to time, I meant that I found the best balance of time and quality (for me) is Poser. I could often get better quality with Lux or Vue or even Carrara, but the time isn't worth it to me. Besides, It took a lot of time to learn these platforms, even in a rudimentary way. If I want to achieve mastery, I will pick one and focus on it.

    My point was, what ever you do, there is a minimum of learning involved!
    Once you have made up your mind (learning process!) it is up to every person to decide how much and what to learn.

    How long does it take a single mother to raise twins, one of whom is autistic? Lol! Answer: far too much to leave many hours for hobbies!! :P

    I am sorry to tell you, that this will take your lifetime (if I believe what my mother tells me, and I am past 50!(and according to my own experience with my daughter!)) But to be honest, I do not want it any other way! ^_-

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited December 1969

    larsmidnatt thats really nice love the vibrancy of the colours.
    Do you render the hair seperately or with the figure or both?

    Thanks. I rendered the hair with the figure this time. largely because I don't like to paint TOO much and didn't want to have to figure out shadows around the face. so I rendered the character with the hair, then went into photoshop and added some layers and painted on those. Played with curves a bit and generally had a good time :)

  • AkhbourAkhbour Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Akhbour said:

    You don't need to even master the subset of features you use.

    So how do you know what to do when your scene is made for a sunny day but you want to use it for a rain scene? Pavements does not look the same when dry or wet. That is only one subset.

    I was debating if people would understand what I meant by "master". They say it takes something like 10,000 hours to master something, but well before then you have other stages of good and very good that should be enough to satisfy and even impress.

    You should definitely become familiar with what you use, but mastering it isn't a requirement to reach a satisfying level.

    Maybe not 10.000 hours, but at least 50 to know a little bit!

    But it certainly is nothing "instant" as some seem to claim.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,458
    edited December 1969

    Akhbour said:

    Maybe not 10.000 hours, but at least 50 to know a little bit!

    But it certainly is nothing "instant" as some seem to claim.

    Completely agree there. I suggest splitting it up into smaller chunks and learning over time. Thats how I absorb most things.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 7,933
    edited December 1969

    Speed isn't an issue for me with Daz studio but I turn off raytracing hair and transparencies. Not a problem for me but I know some people can't live without.

    I'd be one of those people. I prefer AO effects on hair, and if you are using raytraced shadows or reflections... well, they're bald if RT is off! lol. You are right, of course, that there is always a trade-off between time and render bells-and-whistles. I guess I meant that Poser renders the bells-and-whistles faster. 'Cause, apparently, I'm a bells-and-whistles kind of gal. :D

    That's the thing though...

    There are faster ways to do AO in 3Delight, that aren't readily evident through DS, but are accessible (at least now...point-cloud). Most of the current AO solutions aren't really optimized, on top of everything else (start/stop distances make a big difference, same with samples...not everything needs to be done at 128 or even 32).

  • KaribouKaribou Posts: 888
    edited December 1969

    Here is an example of some hair I rendered without bells and whistles and I filled it out a bit with painting. Not realistic at all but I enjoy the style.
    If I had your talent for painting, I would undoubtedly do the same. I'm envious of your lovely postwork. That's an area where I struggle -- my creative vision and my abilities are far apart. One can practice and improve... but some artistic things really do come down to inborn talent. Your image is truly lovely!

    Akhbour said:

    My point was, what ever you do, there is a minimum of learning involved!
    Once you have made up your mind (learning process!) it is up to every person to decide how much and what to learn.
    I'm a reformed physics teacher. You're preaching to the choir. :) If I won the lottery, I would stop doing everything but learning new things. Knowledge is one amazing thing that no one can take from you.

    Akhbour said:
    How long does it take a single mother to raise twins, one of whom is autistic? Lol! Answer: far too much to leave many hours for hobbies!! :P

    I am sorry to tell you, that this will take your lifetime (if I believe what my mother tells me, and I am past 50!(and according to my own experience with my daughter!)) But to be honest, I do not want it any other way! ^_-


    Nope, me neither. My babies ARE my first and most time-consuming hobby. One might say that I'm spending my lifetime rendering them. (It certainly felt that way when I was 34 weeks pregnant with an octopus!)

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