Daz Studio, Poser, Genesis...

Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
edited November 2012 in The Commons

Оn my DeviantArt page I started two polls related to the popularity of Daz Studio and Genesis.
Interest to find out what has changed since the introduction of Genesis exclusively for Daz Studio and now when it became available in Poser...

What is your opinion that the expect Genesis?
now it will be more efficient, not to change, or do you think that all was well initially...

Post edited by Slide3D on
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Comments

  • RCDescheneRCDeschene Posts: 2,086
    edited November 2012

    At the very beginning is was a bit awkward for both parties. Genesis didn't really have much morph support beyond the Basic Trio (Female, Male, & Child) and a hand full of Universal shapes. Autofit wasn't all that great either when it first launched. Because of this, many users were still pretty set in Gen 4. However, after the releases of Evolutionary Morphs, Gen 4 & 3 Iconic Shapes and Transfer Utility (in the DS4 Pro version) things became much more appealing, not only to the Studio users, but to many of the content creators. This, in turn greatly upset the Poser Community and thus created the heart of the conflict between the two applications.

    But even now with the DSON, many Poser users are not entirely satisfied with it for matters regarding installation, limitation, and overall still giving them a loop to jump through to get Genesis properly into the program. But regardless of all of this, the sudden discontinuation of all the "Good-bye DAZ" topics says that things are starting to patch up again. Some Poser users have even came back.

    Post edited by RCDeschene on
  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,444
    edited December 1969

    Had DAZ released DS4 and Genesis with the DSON from the start, Genesis would have met with a better reception, especially from the Poser user base.

    I paid little attention to when it was released as it did nothing to improve my work. Now, I only see it as another figure among the many that have been released in the past year or so.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    In general, I always get the view that Daz made ​​a wrong turn
    but why? initially it was clear that Genesis will run into problems because not compatible with poser
    what made such a step?
    confrontation with the poser to capture the market of software in this segment.
    or the willingness to introduce new features.

  • Midnight_storiesMidnight_stories Posts: 1,526
    edited December 1969

    I always think for the future and realistically DAZ is never going to produce another poser figure, it will always be based around the genesis figure. There will be a point in time where poser users will be so sick of M4 and V4 figure that they will venture over to have a look at the genesis stuff. Already genesis can do more in poser than an other poser figure before the morph and figure base is huge. I fully expect they will adopt the system to other figure types such as animals. SmithMicro to there credit has worked with DAZ to get genesis over the line so in some way DAZ has helped keep poser going, but that's only my opinion. SmithMicro just can't churn out the figures like DAZ. If Poser could get Sud-D technology in there they could start a whole new age for poser and DAZ users, and bring them back together again. Well that's my 2cents. I'm sure I'll get a few stones thrown at me but I got think skin LOL!

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    I certainly support the aspirations Daz make a better product
    but in the aspirations they have missed the other side of the user requirements for ease of use of the program and obtain pleasing results

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 3,405
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    I certainly support the aspirations Daz make a better product
    but in the aspirations they have missed the other side of the user requirements for ease of use of the program and obtain pleasing results


    I would say its just different then what we are used to. As you use the Genesis figure more you will become more accustomed to it. I admit I had difficulties using it at first but that is because it is not the same as a standard poser figure. Anyone new comming in will not know the difference and probably adapt to it a lot faster then long time users.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    I think the problem is that very few newbies
    most of the members are formed on the Poser interface

  • ZaarinZaarin Posts: 385
    edited December 1969

    I always think for the future and realistically DAZ is never going to produce another poser figure, it will always be based around the genesis figure. There will be a point in time where poser users will be so sick of M4 and V4 figure that they will venture over to have a look at the genesis stuff. Already genesis can do more in poser than an other poser figure before the morph and figure base is huge. I fully expect they will adopt the system to other figure types such as animals. SmithMicro to there credit has worked with DAZ to get genesis over the line so in some way DAZ has helped keep poser going, but that's only my opinion. SmithMicro just can't churn out the figures like DAZ. If Poser could get Sud-D technology in there they could start a whole new age for poser and DAZ users, and bring them back together again. Well that's my 2cents. I'm sure I'll get a few stones thrown at me but I got think skin LOL!

    I think you way overestimate Poser's dependence on DAZ, as Anastasia, Tyler, Miki, Antonia, My Michelle, etc. show, any one of which is just as good or better than Genesis, IMO. The real problem is getting vendors to support these alternate figures rather than the usual DAZ ones, but nevertheless Poser users have alternatives. Don't get me wrong, I think Michael 5 is very impressive (though I can't say the same about Victoria 5 or the other Genesis figures, which are just another human figure, IMO). Genesis's strength seems primarily as creatures rather than humans; overall, I think Gen4 or the other Poser alternatives are better for human figures with the exception of Michael 5, as I noted above. Considering I'm broke and can't afford clothes, however, I'll still be using Michael 4 primarily for the time being.

    I'll be interested to see how the Kids 5 turn out--Poser/DAZ still lacks a really high quality child figure.

  • TheWheelManTheWheelMan Posts: 983
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    I certainly support the aspirations Daz make a better product
    but in the aspirations they have missed the other side of the user requirements for ease of use of the program and obtain pleasing results

    I totally disagree. The only problem with Genesis is that it works differently than the previous characters. People had just as many problems of a different sort with V4/M4, but most of the people complaining about Genesis have either forgotten those days or were the ones who never had those issues with previous generations.

    I've only played with Genesis a bit so far (no free time, unfortunately), and I already realize the advantages it will give me over time. I had no problems installing it or getting it to work on my 4+ year old system. M4 and V4 will still get plenty of use still, but the ability to mix morphs, and to access characters that M4 and V4 could never do, will be a huge plus for me.

    And eventually the kinks will be worked out and most Genesis content will be Poserized, and I also am pretty certain that the next generation of Poser will be much more Genesis ready, and all this current b*tching will be a moot point.

  • ISIKOLISIKOL Posts: 229
    edited December 1969

    Im using poser for the last 5 years...i always thought that daz and sm are such a good team...amazing software from sm and amazing figures from daz...

    From where i stand, that recipe should stay that way...

    From the moment that collapsed, what happened was a matter of time...

    I started using studio in an effort to use higher quality models in my workflow...

    It didn't work out....

    I just don't have the time learning a whole new software...

    And this whole dson story....well...daz made their best effort to integrate genesis into poser...

    Did they suceed? I don't know, but speaking for myself i m struggling make a simple render with 'm5 dressed...

    I wish for someday for the both companies to work together and find a solution to whole this...

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,767
    edited November 2012

    Genesis is more then just about animal shapes. It's also great for those of us who like to have non standard figures but still want to have clothing that works. In the past, unless you wanted to use template characters it was tough getting outfits that fit properly.

    I know a lot of people like the template designs but I have never been a fan myself. When I first started using Genesis and it had limited morphs I went back to V4/A4. Eventually I got enough stuff for Genesis that I could shape the characters the way I wanted, and I was so happy that clothing worked without having to use external programs.

    Personally I'm glad Daz didn't hold itself back and went forward with it's innovation. It's not really innovative if its already completely supported by legacy software.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • Satira CapriccioSatira Capriccio Posts: 522
    edited December 1969

    I've spent quite a bit of time experimenting with Genesis since the DSON Importer for Poser was released. Unfortunately, I'm having very mixed results.

    Clothing is hit and miss whether it fits properly ... even after running the python script to transfer Active Morphs to the clothing. I'm not happy with the way that the script processes ALL clothing each time the script is run. I'd far rather be able to select a piece of clothing and run the script on it. Not every piece of clothing needs the Active Morphs transferred, and some clothing ends up mangled after running the script. Like a helmet that fits over ears! I suppose one should load the clothing that will need Active morphs transferred, pose the figure, run the script, and then load what doesn't need or shouldn't have the Active Morphs transferred.

    Clothing doesn't look good on heavy Genesis bodies. It seems to fit best on thin bodies. While Gen 4 clothing can also be problematic with heavy bodies, there are usually enough settings available to make adjustments to the problem areas. I don't have as much success with the Poser Morph Tool on Genesis/Genesis clothing as I do with Gen 4/Gen 4 clothing.

    Every pose I try where Genesis has her arms down (even those developed specifically for Genesis/V5) result in crumpled shoulders. No one else seems to have this problem so I have no idea why I get such unsatisfactory results.

    I'm not ready to discard Genesis completely, but I doubt I will spend much more money on Genesis, and I doubt it will be my go to figure as long as these problems continue. I like the idea of clothing that will fit any Male/Female/Child/Creature figure, but that's not my experience with Genesis.

    If DAZ and Smith Micro continue to tweak things and succeed in eliminating these problems, Genesis may become viable as a replacement for Gen 4 figures. But, it's not there yet for me.

    .

    Slide3D said:
    Оn my DeviantArt page I started two polls related to the popularity of Daz Studio and Genesis.
    Interest to find out what has changed since the introduction of Genesis exclusively for Daz Studio and now when it became available in Poser...

    What is your opinion that the expect Genesis?
    now it will be more efficient, not to change, or do you think that all was well initially...

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    I certainly support the aspirations Daz make a better product
    but in the aspirations they have missed the other side of the user requirements for ease of use of the program and obtain pleasing results

    I totally disagree. The only problem with Genesis is that it works differently than the previous characters. People had just as many problems of a different sort with V4/M4, but most of the people complaining about Genesis have either forgotten those days or were the ones who never had those issues with previous generations.

    I'm not talking about the usability of the Genesis...
    I mean that the level of the DS itself in terms of setting light sources, render options, interface and etc. all remained at the same level...
    I think they had to develop two areas, one for developers with a separate module for the other users with the lightweight version without undue Bookmarks and Settings
    Finally something to do with the renderer in this form is a dead weight that 3deLight widest possibilities and this implementation only prevents

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 3,784
    edited November 2012

    Slide3D said:
    Slide3D said:
    I certainly support the aspirations Daz make a better product
    but in the aspirations they have missed the other side of the user requirements for ease of use of the program and obtain pleasing results

    I totally disagree. The only problem with Genesis is that it works differently than the previous characters. People had just as many problems of a different sort with V4/M4, but most of the people complaining about Genesis have either forgotten those days or were the ones who never had those issues with previous generations.

    I'm not talking about the usability of the Genesis...
    I mean that the level of the DS itself in terms of setting light sources, render options, interface and etc. all remained at the same level...
    I think they had to develop two areas, one for developers with a separate module for the other users with the lightweight version without undue Bookmarks and Settings
    Finally something to do with the renderer in this form is a dead weight that 3deLight widest possibilities and this implementation only prevents

    I don't agree that DS has stayed at the same level. DS has had things for a few years that Poser has only just obtained. If anything was not advancing it was Poser. DS is still advancing, and its free.

    Genesis changed the market in many ways.

    As to 'obtaining pleasing results' I think that is an insult to DS users, like any software its about the skill of the user not the software. I have seen some awful stuff come out of Poser, and personally I'v never got a pleasing result out of the program.

    Post edited by scorpio on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,389
    edited December 1969

    Not another round of App Wars please.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 1,173
    edited December 1969

    Slide3D said:
    I certainly support the aspirations Daz make a better product
    but in the aspirations they have missed the other side of the user requirements for ease of use of the program and obtain pleasing results

    I disagree, just seems so many shrug off one app or the other based on pure speculation or from what they read from others without ever trying and learning.. I used to be poser only and now I mainly use DS4,5 with genesis, simply because it works for my workflow and saves me time, hassle and having to use other plugins or apps outside the program like I did with poser and ww or morphing clothes. Having serious time with both apps, each has their pros and cons. DAZ did the right thing with genesis tech, if you are upset it doesn't work like you want it to in poser, then get out of your comfort zone and learn something new, it 's not rocket science.

  • Eric WaltersEric Walters Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    G is usable in Poser-for the most part. I agree with Satira on the clothing. I only discovered through experimentation that it is best to add all clothing that will need fitting-BEFORE transferring active morphs. Like she said- when you select transfer active morphs- it goes through all characters and clothing, can take a few minutes-and sometimes messes up previous clothing items.
    I do prefer V4-WM to Genesis female-I just think it looks better.

    Slide3D said:
    I certainly support the aspirations Daz make a better product
    but in the aspirations they have missed the other side of the user requirements for ease of use of the program and obtain pleasing results

    I disagree, just seems so many shrug off one app or the other based on pure speculation or from what they read from others without ever trying and learning.. I used to be poser only and now I mainly use DS4,5 with genesis, simply because it works for my workflow and saves me time, hassle and having to use other plugins or apps outside the program like I did with poser and ww or morphing clothes. Having serious time with both apps, each has their pros and cons. DAZ did the right thing with genesis tech, if you are upset it doesn't work like you want it to in poser, then get out of your comfort zone and learn something new, it 's not rocket science.

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,767
    edited November 2012


    I do prefer V4-WM to Genesis female-I just think it looks better.

    I hated Genesis Female and went back to OLD SCHOOL V4. But then I upgraded to Genesis ++ and I think she looks best. What is Gensis ++ you say? Pretty much anything past the basics really. Genesis Female is limited, but after you add your preferred morphs she is a real hottie.

    Post edited by larsmidnatt on
  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,931
    edited December 1969

    Are you talking about evolution?

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,767
    edited December 1969

    Spyro said:
    Are you talking about evolution?

    Me in particular? Well I got the pro bundle so all those morphs came together, so V5 and Evolution are all a blur as to what comes with what. And I got a bunch of free morphs around same time too so hard to tell.

  • icprncssicprncss Posts: 3,444
    edited December 1969


    I do prefer V4-WM to Genesis female-I just think it looks better.

    I hated Genesis Female and went back to OLD SCHOOL V4. But then I upgraded to Genesis ++ and I think she looks best. What is Gensis ++ you say? Pretty much anything past the basics really. Genesis Female is limited, but after you add your preferred morphs she is a real hottie.

    Genesis ++? You've lost me. Or do you mean V5?

  • ColdrakeColdrake Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Zaarin said:
    I think you way overestimate Poser's dependence on DAZ, as Anastasia, Tyler, Miki, Antonia, My Michelle, etc. show, any one of which is just as good or better than Genesis, IMO.

    Anastasia and Tyler are character morphs of existing Poser figures, not stand alone figures.


    Coldrake

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 2,767
    edited December 1969

    icprncss said:

    I do prefer V4-WM to Genesis female-I just think it looks better.

    I hated Genesis Female and went back to OLD SCHOOL V4. But then I upgraded to Genesis ++ and I think she looks best. What is Gensis ++ you say? Pretty much anything past the basics really. Genesis Female is limited, but after you add your preferred morphs she is a real hottie.

    Genesis ++? You've lost me. Or do you mean V5?

    I was joking not meaning to confuse at all. But V5 is optional, I barely used her for a long time. I mostly used other morphs I had. Frankly V5's shapes do nothing for me, but she does come with some useful morphs.

    All in all I was saying basic Genesis Female is weak, just like V4 was. V4 with morphs ++ and/or elite shapes was awesome. Genesis with the body resource kit, some free morphs like Dietryings and/or V5/S5 make for a great figure.

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,931
    edited December 1969

    Man those Body resource kits are freakin awesome! Die Tryings is another must have... I also love Genesis evolution packs (All of them) My only grudge with evolution morphs is that most clothing for genesis doesn't support Masculinity... which causes issues with clothing fits. Evolution morphs are pretty much M4 and V4 Morphs++ (Though, unfortunately it was selective, and not all the morphs in Morphs++ were included in Evolution)

  • KhoryKhory Posts: 2,538
    edited December 1969

    most of the members are formed on the Poser interface

    That has not been true for a long time now. The Studio/Poser market was near a 50/50 split several years ago and DAZ has been far more aggressive about getting totally new users to Studio than Poser has in the years since.

  • DWGDWG Posts: 772
    edited December 1969

    The "was DAZ right to launch Genesis as Studio only" question ignores a major issue: at the point of launch, Poser was incapable of supporting Genesis, while Studio 4 was designed to do just that. It wasn't until Poser got its app interface a few months back that it became possible to develop the DSON plugin.

    The Studio userbase on its own was clearly capable of supporting Genesis - the PAs wouldn't be throwing out Genesis figures and outfits if it wasn't, so commercially the decision was clearly viable, and that's really all that matters.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 19,389
    edited December 1969

    Not another round of App Wars please.

    Since it was lost at the foot of the last page.

  • darkforceprimedarkforceprime Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Cool. I see two of my favorite artists talking in this one. Slide and Midnight. I use your products for professional projects. Thank you for supporting M4/V4.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 15,779
    edited December 1969

    ..as many know I was very skeptical about Studio4.x and Genesis. For one I work on an older system which barely meets the the minimal requirements for 4.x. This is the first time I have experienced crashes of the app when I wasn't rendering (due to OpenGL issues).

    I ended up getting PP2010 as it seemed to be a bit "gentler" on my old system. It also allowed me to render in background (using the queue manager) which saved precious memory and processor resources.

    However didn't have weight mapping and was still dealing with the joint issues.

    Then I decided to give 4.5 pro a try. Seems a few of the OpenGL issues were taken care of as it wasn't as sluggish as 4.0. Also the new version of 3Delight is really fast (as long as one doesn't use IBL with a lot of raytracing). Renders using the standard Daz lights and mapped shadows often completed within a minute thirty or less (which in 3Advanced took anywhere from fifteen to twenty). I've also had fewer render crashes even when using IBL and raytracing (just that it is slow as molasses in a Siberian winter).

    It also appears that the memory management issues that plagued 3Advanced and the early releases of 4.x have been dealt with.

    What sold me on Genesis is the GenerationX plugin and the ability to mix various body shapes including toon characters. With the Gen4 and Gen3 body shapes I could use all the morph sets and characters already in my runtime with the benefit of improved joint bending offered by weight mapping. I even successfully created a weight mapped version of Steph4 (though not sure what to do with her as she apparently doesn't like most texture maps other than the basic V4/S4 ones, or character morph sets due to the geometry change).

    The Transfer Utility is a marked improvement over the original Autofit. Along with Collision Detection and Smoothing, it makes clothing fits so much easier to deal with.

    While I still need to be careful to not make large adjustments in the morph sliders or quick changes in camera position (which usually results in the viewport blanking out due to the OpenGL support issue) and am not able to do a really "loaded" scene, I am still admittedly impressed with 4.5.

    It would be nice if there was a Queue Manager/Render in Background option like Poser Pro has, as well as a the ability to pause/resume rendering (like Reality/Lux has). As long as Daz Studio does not have these additional render choices and user defined dynamics, Poser/PoserPro will still have an important place in the toolbox.

    It still is more of a case that both have their advantages and disadvantages and in a sense, still complement each other.

  • Slide3DSlide3D Posts: 118
    edited December 1969

    well ... let's leave the software wars
    and talk exclusively about Genesis
    I have long intended to do something for him (if my products interested Daz3D market Management) )
    what is missing in the existing product range?
    for example what could interest those who have not decided to move from Gen4 to using Genesis

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