Modo 601 or C4D R14 to render Daz and Poser models?

scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Is anyone using either of the programs for rendering daz and poser content?
Which is better to use regarding easy importing and re-texturing the models.
I have looked at both but am undecided. I love Modo's UI and tools.
I also love the new features of Cinema 4D R14's camera and composition aids.
I am learning After Effects for compositing and visual effects and C4D seems to play well with it.
But theres something about Modo that is very appealing.
Would anyone with experience like to share their opinions?

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Comments

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 635
    edited December 1969

    If you want Daz and Poser content compatibility then Carrara is the best, since it has native support for Daz/Poser functions, for example morphs, that are impossible to export.

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    Thanks 3drendero. I am a Carrara user and love the app but it has limitations. The renders look amazing on the Luxology and Maxon sites. There is no Reality plug-in for Carrara which is a shame. Also there are more tools for modelling, texturing, painting etc in Modo and C4D.

  • 0oseven0oseven Posts: 386
    edited December 1969

    Thanks 3drendero. I am a Carrara user and love the app but it has limitations. The renders look amazing on the Luxology and Maxon sites. There is no Reality plug-in for Carrara which is a shame. Also there are more tools for modelling, texturing, painting etc in Modo and C4D.

    Just looked at some renders on the Maxon site - seems to me Carrara in the right hands can easily match what i saw there.

    If you havent seen the artist showcase on the Carrara Cafe recommend you have a look.

    http://carraracafe.com/?page_id=65

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 985
    edited November 2012

    If you want to easily use Poser (DAZ) content the best route would be to go with C4D and InterPoser Pro. InterPoser Pro will allow you to use your Poser runtime with C4D, and retain all the morphs and bones. With Modo you will need to export your figure to obj and import into Modo. All morphs will need to be imported/created individually.

    One word of caution though, in order to have the same feature set you currently have in Carrara, You will need to get the Studio version of C4D ($3,695). True, this will give you a lot of features not found in Carrara, but that's quite a hefty price tag unless you have some really good reasons for moving up to a pro application.

    The renderer in Modo is very nice, and very fast, but you'll have to deal with a less than ideal import routine to use your DAZ/Poser content in Modo. Unless you have a very specific need for some of the advanced modeling tools (or other tools) in Modo, it really isn't an ideal environment for using DAZ/Poser content.

    Carrara's renderer is really extremely good for the price. True, it hasn't gotten a lot of love since DAZ purchased it, but it can still produce fantastic results. If speed is an issue, with the money you spend on C4D you could get a dual hex or octa core CPU rig that would make Carrara renders fly. If you plan on using Lux, then the machine I just mentioned would definitely serve you much better than getting expensive software. In fact, if your really interested in using Lux, you could export to obj (like you would have to with Modo), then import into Blender and use Lux (or Cycles) to render. In fact, if your looking for another application that has more features and faster development than Carrara, you should take a serious look at Blender.

    Both Modo and C4D are fantastic applications, but Modo isn't Poser/DAZ friendly, and to duplicate the capabilities of Carrara you need to spend a lot on C4D (plus the cost of annual maintenance), and get interposer Pro. If your goal is to render Poser/DAZ content, then it's hard to beat Carrara. Carrara can get outstanding render results with a little work, and Carrara has integrated landscape tools that neither C4D or Modo have.

    I would strongly suggest that you look at what you really want from your 3D tool set, and then go through the tools available in Carrara, Modo, C4D, and Blender. If faster/better renders is your main goal, then I would strongly suggest you learn how to get everything you can from Carrara first (most everything you learn about lighting, materials, and rendering can be transported to another software later). Lux Render is very nice, but you can achieve very similar results in Carrara - and the render times will also be equivalent (loooong).

    Post edited by DustRider on
  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 637
    edited November 2012

    Some good info here in this thread. But it should also be noted that you should experiment with Carrara render settings if speed is one of your issues and you can't afford a powerful rig yet. You'll find that the default settings are really much higher than they need to be.

    Off the top of my head, you can often turn the filter sharpness all the way down to zero from the default 75. You'll still have more resolution and sharpness than you'd get if you were actually shooting real life on film and save render time (One of my pet peeves about some 3d artists is them thinking everything has to be ultra sharp. You'll cause suspension of disbelief more easily by making a picture look more film like - more grainy or less perfect in some 3D folks eyes - so it won't look so computer digital perfect). If you don't believe me, just step through a DVD frame by frame to see how grainy they look. You should focus more on lighting and constrast, color schemes, etc. as they will make your work seem sharper, though it isn't. Think of YouTube videos that look sharp but aren't.

    Also, you can lower the maximum ray depth settings from the default 8 to 4 or 2 and many times be just fine. You may need 8 if you have a lot of reflection, for example. Set your settings for each individual scene so you can find the sweet spot for each.

    Your mileage may vary on the bucket Tile size settings, but often the default 128 setting is too high for Carrara (higher is better sometimes for Poser, not Carrara). You can speed up many renders by dropping it to 32 or 64, but it does depend on how complex your scene is - you may get better results with 128 for some scenes. Experimenting is key.

    If you want faster GI - fake it. There are tutorials out there on how to do it or you can get some really good and fast results using Tim Payne's GI substitute from the store. It looks as good as real GI to my eyes and it's fast and really good on the medium quality light set.

    Animation preview renders with full textures should generally be done at lower resolutions. No point wasting time if you can see what's going on at 320 by 240 or it's wider screen counterpart. Use 24fps - that will also save render time for animations and give you suspension of disbelief more readily. 30fps is good for news coverage and reality TV shows... not animation.

    I hope those tips save you some money. A few thousand dollars is only worth spending if you really need the software. If you are doing it to learn animation, it's a waste of money. I know of guys who got big studio jobs (ILM for one guy) with demos they made using hobbyist software like Animation:Master and Blender (it's their animation skills, ability, acting smarts, creativity and being able to work well with others that got them the job). If you are setting up your own shop, it may be worth the purchase, but it may not. I know guys who bought and learned Lightwave or 3DS Max and have never used it for work more than maybe once or twice. The rest of the time they are doing things in After Effects with motion graphics or their editing software with real video footage.

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    Thanks dustrider, Kevin for your advice. Lots of useful tips that will surely help me.. I am using Carrara for all my work at the moment. I am a Mac user so buying a PC is not really an option. I will be buying the new 27" iMac as soon as its released so that will speed up my workflow.
    I am a Fashion Photographer who incorporates 3D sets and elements into my work. I prefer to shoot indoors and create the CGI using Carrara.
    My main inspiration is an International Photographer and digital artist named "Benedict Campbell". He is very concept driven and creates some amazing imagery using C4D and Photography. He also uses Daz models as a base instead of creating from scratch.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    You're welcome. Sounds like fun work!

  • holly wetcircuitholly wetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Agree with Kevin. Carrara is very fast and stable when your scene is optimized. Also consider buying BAKER to bake your textures (including shadows) so you can render with as few lights in the scene as possible, and rendering foregrounds separately from backgrounds - the speed boost can make 2 separate renders FASTER than one single render... Also look to using Shadow Buffers where you can (you will probably need baker to correct for some "glow" issues).

    This is what the "pros" do regardless of what software they use.

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    Excellent advice holly wetcircuit. So much to learn. Would eventually like to render out of Carrara and take the renders into After Effects for compositing and VFX.

  • jorge dorlandojorge dorlando Posts: 884
    edited December 1969

    dustrider said:
    If you want to easily use Poser (DAZ) content the best route would be to go with C4D and InterPoser Pro. InterPoser Pro will allow you to use your Poser runtime with C4D, and retain all the morphs and bones. With Modo you will need to export your figure to obj and import into Modo. All morphs will need to be imported/created individually.

    One word of caution though, in order to have the same feature set you currently have in Carrara, You will need to get the Studio version of C4D ($3,695). True, this will give you a lot of features not found in Carrara, but that's quite a hefty price tag unless you have some really good reasons for moving up to a pro application.

    The renderer in Modo is very nice, and very fast, but you'll have to deal with a less than ideal import routine to use your DAZ/Poser content in Modo. Unless you have a very specific need for some of the advanced modeling tools (or other tools) in Modo, it really isn't an ideal environment for using DAZ/Poser content.

    Carrara's renderer is really extremely good for the price. True, it hasn't gotten a lot of love since DAZ purchased it, but it can still produce fantastic results. If speed is an issue, with the money you spend on C4D you could get a dual hex or octa core CPU rig that would make Carrara renders fly. If you plan on using Lux, then the machine I just mentioned would definitely serve you much better than getting expensive software. In fact, if your really interested in using Lux, you could export to obj (like you would have to with Modo), then import into Blender and use Lux (or Cycles) to render. In fact, if your looking for another application that has more features and faster development than Carrara, you should take a serious look at Blender.

    Both Modo and C4D are fantastic applications, but Modo isn't Poser/DAZ friendly, and to duplicate the capabilities of Carrara you need to spend a lot on C4D (plus the cost of annual maintenance), and get interposer Pro. If your goal is to render Poser/DAZ content, then it's hard to beat Carrara. Carrara can get outstanding render results with a little work, and Carrara has integrated landscape tools that neither C4D or Modo have.

    I would strongly suggest that you look at what you really want from your 3D tool set, and then go through the tools available in Carrara, Modo, C4D, and Blender. If faster/better renders is your main goal, then I would strongly suggest you learn how to get everything you can from Carrara first (most everything you learn about lighting, materials, and rendering can be transported to another software later). Lux Render is very nice, but you can achieve very similar results in Carrara - and the render times will also be equivalent (loooong).


    Hello,
    A questing:
    You can bring poser / daz, a character in Cinema4D?
    Or better: no solution to export a character from C4D to poser / daz?
    thank you

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 985
    edited December 1969

    Hello,
    A questing:
    You can bring poser / daz, a character in Cinema4D?
    Or better: no solution to export a character from C4D to poser / daz?
    thank you

    Yes, with Interposer Pro (http://www.kuroyumes-developmentzone.com/interposer-pro/) you can use you DAZ/Poser content very much like in Carrara, at least that is my understanding (haven't used it in years), people that use it seem very happy with it. There is no Genesis support .... yet, I've read posts that indicate this is in development. The other option is to set up your character in DS/Carrara/Poser, export to .obj (no rigging so you must pose first), then import into C4D (or Modo, etc.). Back in the dark ages, I used to export from Poser and render in C4D (version 6) and Carrara (version 3). I dropped C4D due to the increasing costs, and better native support of DAZ/Poser content in Carrara.

    You can use C4D to make models for use in Carrara or DS, I used to use it to model clothing for Poser. You would need to export from C4D using .obj, but this would only be for "static" objects. C4D rigging won't transfer, as far a I know, unless it can be done via collada. I really liked C4D, it was almost as easy for me as Carrara, but simply got out of my price range.

  • jorge dorlandojorge dorlando Posts: 884
    edited December 1969

    Humm! Because my situation is as follows:
    I need a thug to be a security agent (character)
    I found a really ideal for what I need:
    http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_details.aspx?id_product=42773
    But this is native C4D.
    I do not have C4D, but could download a test version and export to poser, so ...
    Note I have not yet purchased this character, not

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 6,942
    edited December 1969

    Render in Carrara!!! :snake:

  • jorge dorlandojorge dorlando Posts: 884
    edited December 1969

    Render in Carrara!!! :snake:

    To render I already have the vue 10 complete.
    My question: I wanted to know the possibilities of bringing this model native C4D for poser.
    http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_details.aspx?id_product=42773

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 985
    edited December 1969

    Render in Carrara!!! :snake:

    To render I already have the vue 10 complete.
    My question: I wanted to know the possibilities of bringing this model native C4D for poser.
    http://www.the3dstudio.com/product_details.aspx?id_product=42773


    Great character! You could export to .obj, then re-rig in Poser - but that would be a lot of work. Maybe Wendy will chime in and share some of her rigging, and moving rigs from one app to another knowledge. Collada may work, but I don't know how well C4D exports collada.

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    dustrider, I really love Carrara. I have been experimenting with skin shaders for a week and am getting there.
    My aim is to produce realistic looking characters with beautiful backgrounds/scenes.
    I just bought the new quad-core i5 27" iMac to speed up my renders.
    I use Carrara everyday for my work and it rocks but for modelling props and stuff / UV mapping I thinking its difficult in Carrara as the toolset is limited.

  • Curved DesignCurved Design Posts: 54
    edited December 1969

    dustrider, I really love Carrara. I have been experimenting with skin shaders for a week and am getting there.
    My aim is to produce realistic looking characters with beautiful backgrounds/scenes.
    I just bought the new quad-core i5 27" iMac to speed up my renders.
    I use Carrara everyday for my work and it rocks but for modelling props and stuff / UV mapping I thinking its difficult in Carrara as the toolset is limited.

    londonmario, whichever tool you use ( Modo 601 or C4D R14 ) the quality of your renders depends a lot about the lighting! I got some Carrara 8.5 and even DAZ Studio 4.5 renders that look like they were done in Maya or 3D Studio Max and without the $4000 price tag. Basically it is all about the lighting! Either I got lucky with the placement of the lighting or just took the time to get it right! Just my 2 cents! If the rendering it taking too long, for the $4000 you can but a few more machines and use the additional rendernodes to increase the speed. ;-)

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited February 2013

    Curved Design, I totally agree with you about lighting being a vital aspect of creating a good render.
    Being a Professional Photographer, I experiment with lighting setups in the real world.
    But I think creating good Textures and shaders is also vital to achieving realism look.
    I know LuxRender is a physically based and unbiased rendering engine reflecting real world physics of lighting.
    How do you think Carrara's render engine compares?
    Do you have a website or galley where I can view your work?

    Post edited by scottidog2 on
  • ncampncamp Posts: 328
    edited December 1969

    Is anyone using either of the programs for rendering daz and poser content?
    Which is better to use regarding easy importing and re-texturing the models.
    I have looked at both but am undecided. I love Modo's UI and tools.
    I also love the new features of Cinema 4D R14's camera and composition aids.
    I am learning After Effects for compositing and visual effects and C4D seems to play well with it.
    But theres something about Modo that is very appealing.
    Would anyone with experience like to share their opinions?

    I'm fairly new to Modo, lots of great tools, but not so easy to get Daz or Poser items If you google "Modo Poser Conten", you should get a link to a video (http://forums.luxology.com/topic.aspx?f=36&t=16248)

    Not sure if I embeded the link correctly here it is in plain text

    http://forums.luxology.com/topic.aspx?f=36&t=16248

    That said, I love Carrara. I very seldom open Studio or Poser anymore, if I do it is to get something into Carrara. For example, a full scene preload that uses a python scrip, I open it in poser, save as a scene and open that in Carrara. Even an older render engine can give great results once you learn the lighting and tweeking of the shader.

    ncamp

  • edited December 1969

    hello! I use professionally the 3 soft; modo 601, C8pro, and , but with some limitations,cine 4d14... effectively, modo has a fine render, but mostly in global illumionation... I mean, I use C8 as soon as I need a directional, movie-style lighting... cine 4d has a more "smooth", too smooth often, render...
    modo is complicated with import export, and the fur engine is a nightmare... Cine 4d is ok with the import export, and has really good features, but once again the Advanced render don't do often what I want, unlike C8...
    when it become obvious that daz don't do anything on Carrara, I wanted to move to another soft... But I must admit that I do, to day, half of my assignments in C8 pro, 40% in modo (packaging renders), and 10 % in cine 4d..
    Modo is very problematic with heavy meshes, so be sure to do a retopology, if you modify the poser meshes in zbrush... if not, modo will crash very often... Cine 4d is solid, no problems...
    of course, it's just my practice...
    just if you want an example, here is thge same scene, rendered in modo and cine 4d.. I didn't do a Carrara 8 version...

    barbemodo.jpg
    1134 x 756 - 755K
    barbecine4d.jpg
    1134 x 850 - 286K
  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited February 2013

    ncamp, celmar, Thank You very much for your input.
    The Modo render seems to be more sharp and defined. Looks like C4d render has depth of field enabled.
    I'm eagerly waiting for Carrara 9.

    Post edited by scottidog2 on
  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 985
    edited December 1969

    dustrider, I really love Carrara. I have been experimenting with skin shaders for a week and am getting there.
    My aim is to produce realistic looking characters with beautiful backgrounds/scenes.
    I just bought the new quad-core i5 27" iMac to speed up my renders.
    I use Carrara everyday for my work and it rocks but for modelling props and stuff / UV mapping I thinking its difficult in Carrara as the toolset is limited.

    londonmario, whichever tool you use ( Modo 601 or C4D R14 ) the quality of your renders depends a lot about the lighting! I got some Carrara 8.5 and even DAZ Studio 4.5 renders that look like they were done in Maya or 3D Studio Max and without the $4000 price tag. Basically it is all about the lighting! Either I got lucky with the placement of the lighting or just took the time to get it right! Just my 2 cents! If the rendering it taking too long, for the $4000 you can but a few more machines and use the additional rendernodes to increase the speed. ;-)


    I haven't really tried C4D or any of the other more expensive options in quite a while, mainly because I really prefer Carrara, and can't justify those high end price tags. Lighting and materials in Carrara have always been easier for me than in other software.

    Lately I've been using DS more than I used to, and working on figuring out lights and materials in it. I've also started playing around a bit with Reality/Lux. Right now, I still prefer the results I'm getting in Carrara and DS over Lux, but that is more of a stupid user issue than anything else. Lighting in Lux is just about as easy as in Carrara, but the render times are really slow compared to Carrara.

    I've been slowly working on getting better skin results with SSS in Carrara, DS and Lux, I'm getting better, but still not quite where I want to be. I'm working in all three at the same time mainly because I'm working on a character set that I want to include Carrara, DS, Reality/Lux, and Poser shaders for (I haven't started with Poser yet). Even if I never get to the point that I feel comfortable releasing the character set to the masses, I'm really learning a lot!

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    dustrider, I've been looking at how the skin shaders for M4 Elite Sol and V4 Elite Lana are put together. They both have Carrara specific shaders that use SSS.
    This is a good starting point to further tweak them according to your preference.

  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 985
    edited December 1969

    dustrider, I've been looking at how the skin shaders for M4 Elite Sol and V4 Elite Lana are put together. They both have Carrara specific shaders that use SSS.
    This is a good starting point to further tweak them according to your preference.

    I'm far from being an expert, with that in mind, Lana would be a good starting point to to begin with, I've had good results with Maya Elite too, but any of the elite sets with Carrara shaders will work well as a starting point (you'll want to use the GI version). I don't have any of the M4 Elites, but Sol should also be a good starting point. I've been working in DS and Reality/Lux lately, so I don't remember a lot of the specifics off of the top of my head to help out with additional settings, but typically the settings that give you the best results can vary quite a bit depending on the lighting used. You should also have a light set that came with the textures which are a good resource to aid in understanding the light settings used with the Carrara promos.

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    The thing I've been doing for the past few days is writing down every single setting from the different shading domains such as SkinHip, SkinTorso etc and cataloging it as reference ( M4 Hi Res, V4.2 Hi Res, M4 Elite Sol and V4 Elite Lana). Its quite time consuming but gives you a very deep insight as to how the shaders vary and how it renders using the same light setup. For me getting the SSS setting correct is important and its by changing the settings, doing renders and analysing them that I can understand what a particular setting does. The eyes are the hardest to make look realistic but I think i will cheat a little by painting over them in Photoshop.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 6,942
    edited December 1969

    One of the best explanations of all time is included in a Free Product: Indigone's V4 Skin Shader Kit and Lights, which includes an amazing tutorial, beautiful generic skin shaders that work for any figure period... not just V4 or even Daz Figures, for that matter. Anything. And then she includes a light rig that she spent a long time to perfect for deep shadows. Really worth getting an account at ShareCG if you haven't got one yet. If you follow my lead and get that kit (which I suggest to everyone who owns Carrara), you should also pick up her Endless Eyes Kit Again, she says it's for V4 - but there aren't any figure-specific maps in either pack.

    Cripeman has a great tutorial SSS vs Glow

    You should also check out Cripeman's Global Illumination Introduction, You're guaranteed to love it!

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    Dartanbeck, Thank you. Will definitely check it out.
    This is a screen shot of how I catalogue all the shader settings.

    SkinHip.png
    1265 x 759 - 133K
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 6,942
    edited December 1969

    Dartanbeck, Thank you. Will definitely check it out.
    This is a screen shot of how I catalogue all the shader settings.
    That's cool. What do you do that in? Nice flow chart

  • scottidog2scottidog2 Posts: 246
    edited December 1969

    First I started using OmniOutliner and spent days writing settings down but it was difficult to read. Then I came across a fantastic software called "Tree".

    http://www.topoftree.jp/en/tree/

    It was just what I had been looking for.
    I love this software because it took 20 minutes to learn and its so useful and functional.

    Tree, Horizontally expanding outliner.
    Tree is an outliner featuring a horizontally expandable tree view.

    Tree assists you in organizing your information, sketching plans and brainstorming new ideas. Tree allows you to store your ideas and keywords in segments that you can sort, re-arrange and constantly refine. Tree is designed to be a lightweight application that lets you concentrate on your ideas.

  • jorge dorlandojorge dorlando Posts: 884
    edited December 1969

    Hello everybody.
    I have poser pro 2012, and this import collada
    C4D exports collada.
    then this would be one solution to bring rigg of c4d models for poser without the immense work of remaking everything?
    and then you import that model into poser I can animate it using animation tool poser?

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