Bye Bye Daz3d

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  • Kendall SearsKendall Sears Posts: 1,888
    edited December 1969

    Kludge said:
    KageRyu said:
    Just for the record, Kyoto Kid is not the only person to have stability problems with DS3A in 32 bit environments. Daz3D was aware of them, and there were countless posts in the old forums and promises to fix not just stability issues, but other features in DS3A that never worked properly, as well as to finish a complete manual for the customers. All of these were abandoned when Daz went to version 4, and everyone who complained was jumped on ande accused of Daz-Bashing, and met with constant replies like "I'm not having those problems, so it must be YOUR computer".

    Nice to see it's continuing.


    Ummm... they DID fix those problems. They just called it DS4.

    Kendall


    Which, in turn, introduced a new set of problems. :lol:

    Such is the nature of software. :-)

    Kendall

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Personally I always thought poser figures sucked. They were always mispositioned. Face it, of all the things DAZ is known for their figures basically set the bar.

    Step back a generation and poser users were buying figures, morphs, skins, poses, clothes, and props. Now they are just buying props because most everything else has gone genesis and isn't Poser compatible. If most people using poser used DAZ figures and were regular customers how is them not purchasing figure, morphs, skins, poses, and clothes not lost DAZ a big chunk of sales?

    Now I know Richards hates when I do this, but I would be willing to bet him DAZ has lost over 50% of there sales since the introduction of Genesis. So I am sure DAZ is well aware of the issue. The problem is there is no easy solution. DAZ has few options. Give up their weight mapping tech to SM so they can make Poser Genesis compatible. DAZ redesign studio 4 and genesis to use Poser's weight mapping; if SM wants to give up that tech. Which would mean scrapping a couple of years of work. Or some sort of plugin converter for front or back end; ether studio on export or Poser on import.

    If as many people contend genesis is a system wouldn't converting it to Poser mean it wouldn't be genesis any more? I think everyone that knows me knows I'm a pessimist, but it just seems there would be a bunch of issues trying to convert genesis to a poser format. The time it would take to solve them all may make it financially nonviable; costing far more then it nets.

    What do I think of genesis? I can weight paint in carrara. I have a good clothing converter. I have the mil4 figures, so a big selection of morphs. The only advantage for me to genesis is I don't have to do the leg work.

    Now the PC anniversary will soon be upon on us. Every year I usually over spend, it was fall so I had money and DAZ had a lot of stuff I wanted. Not this year though. I honestly can't recall the last time I spent any money at DAZ; sorry Jack. Funds are tight and DAZ isn't selling anything I need.

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 973
    edited December 1969

    Kludge said:
    [Oh, and what's Jarrito's Cola?

    Jarritos is a popular brand of soft drink in Mexico. Jarritos was started by Don Francisco "El Güero" Hill in 1950. Jarritos is made in fruit flavors and is more carbonated than popular soft drinks made in the United States or Canada. Many Jarritos varieties are naturally flavored. The word "jarrito" means "jug" in Spanish and refers to the Mexican tradition of drinking water and other drinks in clay pottery jugs. Jarritos comes in 13.5 and 20-ounce glass and plastic as well as 1.5 liter bottles.

    In 1989, the first importation of Jarritos to retail stores in the U.S. began. By 1997, Jarritos became the most popular soft drink in the U.S. among Latino consumers.The 2009 edition of the book Mexico Greatest Brands confirms that each minute 6000 bottles of Jarritos are introduced to the United States.

    products_jarritos.PNG
    800 x 319 - 517K
  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 8,782
    edited December 1969

    I had it a couple times while I was in San Diego in the military. I wasn't very crazy about it.

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 973
    edited December 1969

    Frank0314 said:
    I had it a couple times while I was in San Diego in the military. I wasn't very crazy about it.


    I'm not either, but it does make for a nice change of pace from time to time. The Mandarin Orange is okay.
    Plus it's made with real sugar.

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 1,150
    edited December 1969

    Just never ask for Malta... it is a VERY acquired taste. My wife who is Puerto Rican loves it when the family gets it shipped from the island but .... yeah.... acquired taste.

  • KageRyuKageRyu Posts: 0
    edited October 2012

    Spyro said:
    If software is upgraded with newer versions, new features require different and new system requirements. If a software company limits itself with the original system requirements then the new features we come to love are not possible, rendering the software obsolete as the other software companies will overtake them like a horse and cart on a freeway.

    It's the same with every other form of software, DVD's, CD's, Photoshop, Video Games, Word Applications etc. You cant seriously expect any software company to continue to upgrade obsolete software. It's unpractical, ridiculously costly and not necessary. Those of us who play the latest revolutionary PC Games must upgrade. Simple as that.

    I'm not targeting anyone, I'm just laying out the facts.

    As myself and others have pointed out many times, arguments such as these to justify DS 4 or 4.5's system requirements do not hold water, as they are far beyond the system requirements of much more robust and powerful 3D software with features that far outstrip DS4 or 4.5. Yet people continue to trot these arguments out as if they are a defense or legitimate excuse.

    More importantly it does not ddress the fact that Daz continues to fail to fix major and significant bugs in one version before rewriting the codebase and breaking compatibility to trot out the next version. Something other software companies do make a far better attempt at. I am not just talking about DS either, but Carrara and Bryce as well - all have major bugs in the various versions that were promised to be addressed and never were before the next version we are expected to pay for is trotted out. Some are features that were one of the selling points of the version I already paid for - where's the bug fix?

    I will not pay for an update to fix a feature I already paid for that never worked! To suggest I do so is unreasonable, and anyone who defends that sort of business model needs a reality check.

    Post edited by KageRyu on
  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 3,433
    edited December 1969

    Spyro said:
    Also, I do agree with you with 'part' of that statement. just posing a character isn't so much your own art........ But, when you set the cameras, lighting, assemble and position other objects any additional content for the figure, dial up a unique character, animate it (If an animation) That's already a large bulk of the industry departments regardless of how well the final result is. It's still their art and shouldn't be discredited.

    Yeah, we who know how to model have more satisfaction knowing that we created most if not all of everything in that render or animation, but to use that knowledge in saying another's work is not their art and that they're just a dolly poser, is like telling anyone who sketches with a reference image that they are not an artist because they didn't sketch the artwork using a live model or create it with no reference at all.

    Just my opinion on that subject :)

    I was only joking why my "only posers use poser" line. I read that on a dA group that's anti poser and it's stuck ever since. There are Poser/Daz users who create great art. End result is all that matters, whether you modeled the character or not doesn't mean anything unless your a modeler. If you're a digital artist you should use whatever tools are available to you. If people are selling resources that can help why not use em.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 16,150
    edited December 1969

    Kludge said:
    Kludge said:
    The OP is quitting 3D art but if it's that or just the PC or DAZ or whatever else comes to mind fits, then it's it still comes down to the same thing. "Boohoo, I'm gonna take my marbles and go home." Cool. Enjoy.
    Sometimes it's time to take your marbles and go home. If it's not fun anymore, why play?

    If it takes that little to make it not fun anymore, then why get in the game in the first place?

    ...letsee, Just looking at Daz's "latest and greatest"...

    ...frequent crashes during rendering,
    ...application crashes when merging scene elements,
    ...serious file bloat resulting in either of the above.
    ...texture/UV maps not loading properly.
    ...incredibly sluggish performance in OGL mode,
    ...lack of updated plugins (granted some of which is due to the plugin vendors).
    ...Genesis/Gen5's recent domination of the Daz store and little if any new Gen4 content.


    I don't consider that "little".

    It tends to put a damper on the enthusiasm for the whole thing when one finds themselves having to spend more time dealing with bugs, performance issues, crashes, and filing support tickets than creating scenes.

    I deal with enough frustration in the day job, I don't need it to be part of something that is supposed to be a pastime.

    I'm not leaving the media completely as I have other things in the toolbox that work better. Daz is losing me as an ongoing customer because the direction in which they are heading is something I cannot afford to keep up with anymore.

  • MADMANMIKEMADMANMIKE Posts: 379
    edited December 1969

    Well, I started out as a Poser user with Poser 4, and only reluctantly adopted D|S in order to import to Bryce. I've since dropped Bryce and Poser (only keep Poser 6 to bash .objs), and have gottne my best work out of D|S.... 2.3.3... the latest version that will work on my computer...

    Anyone want to buy me a new comp so I can start appreciating Genesis?

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 973
    edited December 1969

    ManStan said:
    Now I know Richards hates when I do this, but I would be willing to bet him DAZ has lost over 50% of there sales since the introduction of Genesis. So I am sure DAZ is well aware of the issue. The problem is there is no easy solution. DAZ has few options. Give up their weight mapping tech to SM so they can make Poser Genesis compatible. DAZ redesign studio 4 and genesis to use Poser's weight mapping; if SM wants to give up that tech. Which would mean scrapping a couple of years of work. Or some sort of plugin converter for front or back end; ether studio on export or Poser on import.


    They can't help but have lost money. There are a lot of outfits I would have bought that turned out to be Genesis only (waitress, etc).
    I'm glad they're still making buildings and I'm very grateful for those vendors who continue to support Gen4.


    I hate that DAZ constantly paints itself into a corner. They should have waited to release Genesis as a 6th Generation. Taken the time to get it right and get it into Poser and Carrara. The rush to put it out created a situation where they HAD to push forward. Left themselves no options.


    ManStan said:
    If as many people contend genesis is a system wouldn't converting it to Poser mean it wouldn't be genesis any more? I think everyone that knows me knows I'm a pessimist, but it just seems there would be a bunch of issues trying to convert genesis to a poser format. The time it would take to solve them all may make it financially nonviable; costing far more then it nets.

    What do I think of genesis? I can weight paint in carrara. I have a good clothing converter. I have the mil4 figures, so a big selection of morphs. The only advantage for me to genesis is I don't have to do the leg work.


    It would have been a smart move to build up and test their weight mapping concepts in Carrara. We have weight mapping already. They could have even created a Weight Mapped V4 for Carrara. Tested their concepts there and done so at less expense.


    Now the PC anniversary will soon be upon on us. Every year I usually over spend, it was fall so I had money and DAZ had a lot of stuff I wanted. Not this year though. I honestly can't recall the last time I spent any money at DAZ; sorry Jack. Funds are tight and DAZ isn't selling anything I need.


    I'm hopeful this sale picks up steam. I spent a few dollars, but not much.
    Fingers crossed.

  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 973
    edited December 1969

    Well, I started out as a Poser user with Poser 4, and only reluctantly adopted D|S in order to import to Bryce. I've since dropped Bryce and Poser (only keep Poser 6 to bash .objs), and have gottne my best work out of D|S.... 2.3.3... the latest version that will work on my computer...

    Anyone want to buy me a new comp so I can start appreciating Genesis?


    Maybe after I buy myself one.

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 1,846
    edited December 1969

    ...

    Anyone want to buy me a new comp so I can start appreciating Genesis?

    No need for a new computer to appreciate Genesis. Just sit on a broom handle pointy end first. It's quite the same feeling.

  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 2,013
    edited December 1969

    ...

    Anyone want to buy me a new comp so I can start appreciating Genesis?

    No need for a new computer to appreciate Genesis. Just sit on a broom handle pointy end first. It's quite the same feeling.

    I see this thread is barrelling for that lock again...

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 8,782
    edited October 2012

    As long as nobody is attacking each other it should be fine

    Post edited by frank0314 on
  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 973
    edited December 1969

    ...

    Anyone want to buy me a new comp so I can start appreciating Genesis?

    No need for a new computer to appreciate Genesis. Just sit on a broom handle pointy end first. It's quite the same feeling.


    OUCH! Sounds painful.
    Put some ointment on there will ya?

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 12,320
    edited December 1969

    ManStan said:
    DAZ has few options. Give up their weight mapping tech to SM so they can make Poser Genesis compatible.

    They already did that, over a year before Genesis was released, according to Dan Farr.

  • ColdrakeColdrake Posts: 0
    edited October 2012

    Kyoto Kid said:

    ...letsee, Just looking at Daz's "latest and greatest"...

    ...frequent crashes during rendering,
    ...application crashes when merging scene elements,
    ...serious file bloat resulting in either of the above.
    ...texture/UV maps not loading properly.
    ...incredibly sluggish performance in OGL mode,
    ...lack of updated plugins (granted some of which is due to the plugin vendors).

    Like the vast majority, I'm not having any of those problems.


    ...

    Anyone want to buy me a new comp so I can start appreciating Genesis?

    No need for a new computer to appreciate Genesis. Just sit on a broom handle pointy end first. It's quite the same feeling.

    Maybe for you.


    Coldrake

    Post edited by Coldrake on
  • T JaimanT Jaiman Posts: 540
    edited October 2012

    tsarist said:
    They should have waited to release Genesis as a 6th Generation. Taken the time to get it right and get it into Poser and Carrara. The rush to put it out created a situation where they HAD to push forward. Left themselves no options.

    Ideally, in normal times. But economic times were weighing on the market. The thing holding skeptic potential customers back was the ridiculous shoulders in clothes, and the goofy bodies in nudie pix. There were fixes, but they were somewhat pose-specific at that time.

    Weight mapping was the top of a lot of wishlists, its something people could get elsewhere.

    Seems to have worked. Anecdotal evidence from a few vendors is that Genesis and Poser are doing well.

    Daz brought in new people (who spend the most), and sent a lot of money to the other vendors.


    On the other hand, I'd say they rushed it out at least 6 months early. It hurt them when they slammed into a slew of programming roadblocks.

    Suddenly, a mess of very capable Generation 4 shoulder, hip, and leg morphs appeared.

    But the Gen4 utility came out, too.


    And, yeah, it would've been a good idea to have taken things as far as they might've gone with Poser, first. (It's likely that their hasty debut lowered Poser's opinion of Genesis's value).


    "It's all good", for a vendor-rich niche market, in a crappy economy.


    For Daz's irregular course, I'd love to watch the inevitable factions go at it in the meetings.

    Post edited by T Jaiman on
  • tsaristtsarist Posts: 973
    edited December 1969

    T Jaiman said:
    Ideally, in normal times. But economic times were weighing on the market. The thing holding skeptic potential customers back was the ridiculous shoulders in clothes, and the goofy bodies in nudie pix. There were fixes, but they were somewhat pose-specific at that time.

    Weight mapping was the top of a lot of wishlists, its something people could get elsewhere.

    Seems to have worked. Anecdotal evidence from a few vendors is that Genesis and Poser are doing well.

    Daz brought in new people (who spend the most), and sent a lot of money to the other vendors.


    On the other hand, I'd say they rushed it out at least 6 months early. It hurt them when they slammed into a slew of programming roadblocks.

    Suddenly, a mess of very capable Generation 4 shoulder, hip, and leg morphs appeared.

    But the Gen4 utility came out, too.


    And, yeah, it would've been a good idea to have taken things as far as they might've gone with Poser, first. (It's likely that their hasty debut lowered Poser's opinion of Genesis's value).


    "It's all good", for a vendor-rich niche market, in a crappy economy.


    For Daz's irregular course, I'd love to watch the inevitable factions go at it in the meetings.


    I see your point, but the fact that Genesis is such a radical departure, an intermediate step should have been taken. A new figure that included some of the fixes to Gen 4 would have been accepted by Poser and Daz fans and generated the money they needed. I know I was ready to pick up Genesis until I found out it wouldn't work in Carrara natively.


    The radical departure left tem no choices and made it a do or die move.


    Carrara has weight mapping already. That could have proven a good testing ground for a weight mapped figure.


    Oh well, spilled milk

  • SpyroRueSpyroRue Posts: 4,951
    edited October 2012

    Spyro said:
    Also, I do agree with you with 'part' of that statement. just posing a character isn't so much your own art........ But, when you set the cameras, lighting, assemble and position other objects any additional content for the figure, dial up a unique character, animate it (If an animation) That's already a large bulk of the industry departments regardless of how well the final result is. It's still their art and shouldn't be discredited.

    Yeah, we who know how to model have more satisfaction knowing that we created most if not all of everything in that render or animation, but to use that knowledge in saying another's work is not their art and that they're just a dolly poser, is like telling anyone who sketches with a reference image that they are not an artist because they didn't sketch the artwork using a live model or create it with no reference at all.

    Just my opinion on that subject :)

    I was only joking why my "only posers use poser" line. I read that on a dA group that's anti poser and it's stuck ever since. There are Poser/Daz users who create great art. End result is all that matters, whether you modeled the character or not doesn't mean anything unless your a modeler. If you're a digital artist you should use whatever tools are available to you. If people are selling resources that can help why not use em. Also, I do agree with you with

    ]

    That all good :) After all, you are here aren't you? That tells me you weren't entirely true to that line lol ;-P

    Post edited by SpyroRue on
  • Fixme12Fixme12 Posts: 353
    edited December 1969

    ManStan said:
    DAZ has few options. Give up their weight mapping tech to SM so they can make Poser Genesis compatible. DAZ redesign studio 4 and genesis to use Poser's weight mapping; if SM wants to give up that tech. Which would mean scrapping a couple of years of work. Or some sort of plugin converter for front or back end; ether studio on export or Poser on import.

    If as many people contend genesis is a system wouldn't converting it to Poser mean it wouldn't be genesis any more? I think everyone that knows me knows I'm a pessimist, but it just seems there would be a bunch of issues trying to convert genesis to a poser format. The time it would take to solve them all may make it financially nonviable; costing far more then it nets.

    What do I think of genesis? I can weight paint in carrara. I have a good clothing converter. I have the mil4 figures, so a big selection of morphs. The only advantage for me to genesis is I don't have to do the leg work.

    Stan, sound negative is not always bad! there is a lesson to be pulled, how it otherwise might be.
    There are various ways that one can follow...
    What about daz vs iclone? it doesn't sound silly.
    What about some genesis game platform with unity or other...?
    all the changes in technology we see today, or what we shall see soon...
    think about GPU rendering (octane), dynamics like the clothbuilder (Marvelousdesigner), 3d sculpt & texture (Zbrush), and a still missing tool to animate and physics let's call it tool X & Y and what's possible with with the new upcoming kinects)

    daz still have a great future to go not only with content but software too, if they can make above features true..., Oh boy that sounds fun...
    another problem is daz has several programs (bryce, studio, hex, carrara)
    and we have the competition from poser, iclone, 3dhuman, blender,...
    with the crisis in the world today, it seems wise to only magnify 1 and make it big and fun to play with.
    about the hardware part
    some people have to invest into new systems (included me!).
    but hey, isn't that normal? a computer you buy today is old in 3years and GPU rendering is the future to go,
    watch out for Maxwell 2015! %-P
    People that still run 32 bit, better can upgrade to some 64bit system or just be happy with what they have on 32bit and just play with it.
    about 1 thing we all agree, we can not think of another major version without some well explained manual and tutorials!

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    Kludge said:

    Nice to see it's continuing.
    Ummm... they DID fix those problems. They just called it DS4.

    Which, in turn, introduced a new set of problems. :lol:

    Such is the nature of software. :-)

    Oh, yeah. Makes it interesting. Of course, that depends on the definition of "interesting" that one's using. ;-)

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    tsarist said:
    Kludge said:
    [Oh, and what's Jarrito's Cola?

    Jarritos is a popular brand of soft drink in Mexico. Jarritos was started by Don Francisco "El Güero" Hill in 1950. Jarritos is made in fruit flavors and is more carbonated than popular soft drinks made in the United States or Canada. Many Jarritos varieties are naturally flavored. The word "jarrito" means "jug" in Spanish and refers to the Mexican tradition of drinking water and other drinks in clay pottery jugs. Jarritos comes in 13.5 and 20-ounce glass and plastic as well as 1.5 liter bottles.

    Cool, thanks. Since I like fruit flavored drinks, I might actually like it. Too bad they don't ship to Hawaii.

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    Kludge said:

    If it takes that little to make it not fun anymore, then why get in the game in the first place?
    ...letsee, Just looking at Daz's "latest and greatest"...
    .....
    I don't consider that "little".

    I consider them ample to quite using Studio and if I weren't a glutton for punishment I'd do so myself. Well, abandon DS4.x. DS3A is relatively well behaved. Or it is for me.
    It tends to put a damper on the enthusiasm for the whole thing when one finds themselves having to spend more time dealing with bugs, performance issues, crashes, and filing support tickets than creating scenes.

    I deal with enough frustration in the day job, I don't need it to be part of something that is supposed to be a pastime.


    I don't know, to be honest. It may be my machine (3.2 GHz Pentium 4D w/ 2 Gig of RAM) or it may be because my renders are pretty simplistic by comparison but a number of the problems people are talking about haven't happened to me. Or maybe it's just dumb luck.
    I'm not leaving the media completely as I have other things in the toolbox that work better. Daz is losing me as an ongoing customer because the direction in which they are heading is something I cannot afford to keep up with anymore.

    This I can understand. There are other tools and they are available for cheap (Poser back generations, not the current one) if not free (Bryce 7P.) Now, I understand these may not suit your applications and that you have others that do but the OP who quit the hobby rather than exploring other options doesn't make sense to me.

    It's kind of like my quitting ham radio somewhere along the line because a particular piece of equipment didn't do what I needed despite how it was advertised. (I've been a ham for 50+ years and I've paid good money for equipment just like that.) Instead of getting all frustrated and giving up just try a different tool, one that does do what you need and does so reliably.

    Just my two pre-inflation cents' worth. :-)

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    Frank0314 said:
    As long as nobody is attacking each other it should be fine

    En Garde! ;-)

  • KageRyuKageRyu Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Kludge said:
    This I can understand. There are other tools and they are available for cheap (Poser back generations, not the current one) if not free (Bryce 7P.) Now, I understand these may not suit your applications and that you have others that do but the OP who quit the hobby rather than exploring other options doesn't make sense to me.

    Doesn't make sense to me that so many keep saying the OP said he was leaving the hobby when that's not what was said in the OP. The OP said he was leaving Daz because it is predominentyl Genesis now, the PC has less and less he finds useful, and he is not a DS user. That's world's different than leaving the hobby.

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    KageRyu said:

    Doesn't make sense to me that so many keep saying the OP said he was leaving the hobby when that's not what was said in the OP. The OP said he was leaving Daz because it is predominentyl Genesis now, the PC has less and less he finds useful, and he is not a DS user. That's world's different than leaving the hobby.

    Hmmm ... Going back, you're right. Not sure how I got the idea he was leaving the hobby. Or was it someone else that started that line of thought? Dunno now. Apologies to all for that blorf on my part.

  • KageRyuKageRyu Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Kludge said:
    Hmmm ... Going back, you're right. Not sure how I got the idea he was leaving the hobby. Or was it someone else that started that line of thought? Dunno now. Apologies to all for that blorf on my part.

    It's ok, and I am sorry to single out your post, you are not the only one who's made that misthought. I believe it was started by another, and has been perpetuated, which is why I wanted to try to correct it. I can only speculate why it was begun (and base that at looking at early posts it happened in and see a pattern) but will avoid doing so, as despite what some may think I am not just trying to add to negativity.

  • KludgeKludge Posts: 354
    edited December 1969

    KageRyu said:
    Kludge said:
    Hmmm ... Going back, you're right. Not sure how I got the idea he was leaving the hobby. Or was it someone else that started that line of thought? Dunno now. Apologies to all for that blorf on my part.

    It's ok, and I am sorry to single out your post, you are not the only one who's made that misthought. I believe it was started by another, and has been perpetuated, which is why I wanted to try to correct it. I can only speculate why it was begun (and base that at looking at early posts it happened in and see a pattern) but will avoid doing so, as despite what some may think I am not just trying to add to negativity.

    No worries, brah. As long as it all came out peaceful like it's all good.

    In Hawaii, we'd now have a BBQ - chicken, Redondo hot dogs, steak, rice and potato-mac salad with an assortment of pupus (snacks etc.) It's kind of like a backyard luau without the roast pig. :-)

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