How do I get a reasonable light? Less intense shadows?

2

Comments

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    _ PJF _ said:
    Try C - You haven't noticed...

    Oh yes I have noticed, and don't think I haven't noticed the sarcastic use of bold on the letter C, either.

    I'm not saying other things aren't at play or wrong, because they are, that's what I'm saying; you can't expect to get accuracy out of a ray-tracer unless you feed it accuracy. Because he's not feeding it accuracy, there are other things at play, and because of it, I used the example that setting your Refraction to "water" won't make it accurate.

    You know very well that in Bryce, Refraction is actually hard-wired to Reflection.
    Consider yourself slapped with a kipper ;-)

  • Peter FulfordPeter Fulford Posts: 265
    edited December 1969

    It's C for comedy gold.

    You need to go back and pay much more attention to the fifth element.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Not sure what it is I'm supposed to have wrong:

    - The Refraction is wrong.
    - Ray-tracers do exactly what you tell them.
    - Feed it right and it renders right.
    - Details matter.

    That's effectively all I've said, I honestly don't know why you're having to fight it with wit. The few times I tried it I didn't have any problem making water look right in Bryce, in fact Bryce is one of the easiest renderers out there for water and glass, stuff like that.

    I haven't read all that stuff between you and Rashad yet (only skimmed them here and there), so you'll have to forgive me if I've repeated something you already said, but If I said something really dumb then point it out because I'm buggered if I know what it is. You're acting as if you think you're reading me like a book (IE: nodding).

    Whatever it is you think you're reading, it's a new one on me because I haven't a bloody clue what you're getting at!
    Anyway, already spent too much time again, busy.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Just logged back in again, specially for you:

    If you're talking about caustics, yes of course that makes a difference, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making which was simply that the Refraction is wrong. It's picking up too much detail.

    Duh!

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    There are a few unique considerations with the water. For one, the entire scenario is intended to be viewed from any angle at any time. This presents a problem for the water because thought it might look okay from one angle move the camera around 180 degrees and it wont look right anymore. There is no master material setting that looks right from all angles under any type of light

    I tried applying refraction 133 which Bryce says is water but alas it still wasnt right. The first version used refraction 133 the second uses 112. The water looked too much like solid crystal at 133, dependent of course on the viewing angle.

    The main thing I see in those example shots from Len is the caustics of the water, which in my defense I did try to account for in the second version, you can even see the upward caustic on one of the rocks near the shore at the center of the image, but the problems are a little deeper than that. At this shallow depth caustic are essential and impossible to ignore. But we know that caustics arent right in Bryce. So though it is true that a raytracer will do what you tell it to, it doesnt always do it properly.

    Because we don't have displacement for infinite objects like water slabs I had no choice but to use terrains for the dynamic water surface. To avoid observable seams from terrain tiling due to the transparency of the water material I had to try and create all of the ocean that touches the shore with a single terrain object. This greatly limited the amount of detail I am able to use for the waves.

    FYI the terrain is set to "solid" so the water should behave volumetrically, instead of just being a transparent wavy surface.

    These MegaScenes work differently than more simplified scenes which is why I am studying them. Lots of theoretical ideals that work in less complex situations begin to fail or at least to not work as expected. Not everything scales up as it "should." MegaScenes present a whole new set of problems.

    Essentially, if I had my way I would be using a more detailed water surface and therefore more subtle waves that arent so large. Smaller waves would fit much better for sake of illusion, but as mentioned there are limits to terrain resolution and while 4096 seems like a lot when you start reaching for this level of detail 4096 at this grand of a scale it just isnt enough.

    I will be away for a few days so if I dont respond please keep the convo going.

    Mark,
    I think you're right. The OP is probably completely lost after our debate. But then again I'm a bit lost myself, so I can't judge. Trial and error is always a good way to do things when the time permits.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Rashad, just before I dash (and I hope no one thinks I'm being crude by posting it again):
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/andybateman/2402808893/

    Although that image was added to the end of my post for fun, looking at it from a technical angle it's actually the best image of the three to teach stuff about water, and here's why:

    - We know the water is accurate because it's a photo (there's no arguing with it).
    - Look at the shallow water over the sand, it's clear, even though it looks different at depth (make your water clear).
    - The clear water is covering sand (make sure the sand is the right colour).
    - The sky is reflected and has the effect of colouring the water (make sure the sky is the right colour).
    - The ripples are real (copy them).
    - The photo is taken at one angle (copy that angle).

    Judge what you have against the photo, and tweak as needed. When you're happy, move the bloody camera and see what happens, and because you put the time in copying a photo as close as possible at one angle, you're well on the way for it looking good at other angles.

    So you take a note of the settings at that angle and then find a very similar environment at a radically different angle, and again, copy it as close as possible. Note down the settings. Final step is to take the difference between the settings you arrived at for each angle, and use those as a base. If you do it right, you'll be amazed to find it will look remarkably good at any angle you set it.

    Plain, simple, logic.

    To improve it further (and only when you have the base right), you need to start adding the right volume colour to the water, but when you do that, don't go overboard and don't colourise it, try to keep any volume in grey because the main colouring effect for water like that, is the environment, not the water content. It's really only stuff like a muddy river that would require a coloured volume (in that case, brown from the mud).

    I just read some more of that stuff from you and Peter, and while I'm not debating it (know nothing about it), it was basically what I call "Boadroom Syndrome", because just like in a boadroom full of marketing wise-asses, you'll both sit there and witter about technicalities until you're blue in the face, when actually, getting the job done effectively is much simpler than that.

    Think logically, it's that simple, works for me every time! I automatically know I can render whatever I want in Bryce and make it look like a photo if I put the time in. I can do that even if it's something I've never rendered before. It's not magic or talent, it's just logic and common sense - such as approaching things in the manner I outlined above.

  • Dave SavageDave Savage Posts: 1,942
    edited December 1969

    pumeco said:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/andybateman/2402808893/

    Although that image was added to the end of my post for fun, looking at it from a technical angle it's actually the best image of the three to teach stuff about water, and here's why:...

    :-S Is there water in that photo?... Can't say I noticed.

  • LordHardDrivenLordHardDriven Posts: 917
    edited December 1969

    All we get washing up on the beaches here are horseshoe crabs and maybe an occasional whale. Sure would love to find one of those in the link washing up on my beach. ;-P

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    @TheSavage64
    Water? :-D


    @LordHardDriven
    Apparently there's a seemingly endless supply of these beautiful creatures lining the beaches (and streets) of Ibiza* :-P
    *Van conversion to camper-van with double bed, and destination "Ibiza" are purely coincidental.

  • Peter FulfordPeter Fulford Posts: 265
    edited December 1969

    pumeco said:
    - We know the water is accurate because it's a photo (there's no arguing with it).

    Spot on, Len.


    Well, here we are a week later. I really wanted Rashad to deliver the punch line since it was his post that Len was commenting on originally. But I think Rashad is very distracted at the moment and hasn't noticed either...

    Len, you know that fifth image you have an issue with, the one you've made lots of posts about and expended many, many, many words arguing with?

    I'm afraid you're going to have to take it up with a higher power than Rashad about the problematic refraction.

    Because, you see, that fifth image, along with the other two of the last three where the water looks good...


    .


    .


    .

    - it's a photo.

    :mrgreen:


    Think I'll go and make a nice cup of tea.

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    _ PJF _ said:
    pumeco said:
    - We know the water is accurate because it's a photo (there's no arguing with it).

    Spot on, Len.


    Well, here we are a week later. I really wanted Rashad to deliver the punch line since it was his post that Len was commenting on originally. But I think Rashad is very distracted at the moment and hasn't noticed either...

    Len, you know that fifth image you have an issue with, the one you've made lots of posts about and expended many, many, many words arguing with?

    I'm afraid you're going to have to take it up with a higher power than Rashad about the problematic refraction.

    Because, you see, that fifth image, along with the other two of the last three where the water looks good...


    - it's a photo.

    :mrgreen:


    Think I'll go and make a nice cup of tea.

    Ah, I too was confused by what he meant about the refraction being wrong. At first I too thought he was saying that the refraction was wrong in the final image, but I decided that he was saying the last image simply proves that the refraction is wrong in the two example renders I supplied.

    Either way I am trying to see what more I can do with the water, but I might have hit a wall of sorts. I welcome all insight.

  • Peter FulfordPeter Fulford Posts: 265
    edited December 1969


    ...but I decided that he was saying the last image simply proves that the refraction is wrong in the two example renders I supplied.


    Just in case the Lenster tries to grasp at that straw, let me quote the start of his lessons:
    "Comparing to render number five:"
    :wink:


    Either way I am trying to see what more I can do with the water, but I might have hit a wall of sorts. I welcome all insight.

    If you've hit a wall, Rashad, I'm sure it's only temporary.

    I thought Len was a bit harsh in his criticism (or he has a very smart dog); I thought your first was a good basis for progress in terms of overall realism.

    In all three photos you posted as examples, the water has much less obvious surface character. Less reflection, more blurry reflection, and less specular reflection. You see more into the depth of the water in the photos, even though any details are very indistinct (maybe you could use blurry transmissions, too).

    You might need to increase the height range of the sand terrain. At the moment the water looks like a thin sheet, and if you lessen its surface character you'll need more underneath to be on show (even if very blurred).

    The hard edge of the water is a 3D giveaway. That's a toughie, particularly as you are choosing to render small areas of mega-scenes and thus suffer problems when using terrains for the ocean. Without the fractal abilities of MojoWorld, you really are making yourself a rough row to hoe with mega-scenes.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    WTF :lol:

    Well, in my defense, I did say the last one was the best one :mrgreen:

    And anyway, have you ever heard of PL filters? I reckon someone used a PL filter then, and because of the reflection being removed by the PL, it made the detail in the water look unnaturally more detailed because it isn't being masked by reflection.

    - Plus, the photo was only small so that was cheating.
    - Plus, you are both amateurs compared to me because I am the most bestist.

    Anyway, my ol' bud Rash' knows that I was exaggerating when I said my dog could render better water. I'll be honest and tell you right now, he cannot. I caught him trying to render himself a Japanese Akita once 'cause he's good at fur and stuff. But water, nope, he's crap at water. Now if you don't mind, I have a love mobile to design, and funny enough, water is on my mind right now because today, I'm eyeballing those "Berkey" water cleaning systems, and until recently, I thought "Berkey" was just another name for you peasants :mrgreen:

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited October 2012

    I've taken the feedback and attempted to apply it to the scene. The vegetation has been rebuilt since the last upload so that the needles aren't so regular as well as a few other changes.

    The water in the first render is as you saw it in the previous series. The second render is my attempt at fixing up the refraction as Len pointed out. I also changed the caustic pattern to be a bit less frequent and I also removed the shoreline foam because the water isn't disturbed enough to produce much of it. The example photos uploaded by myself and by Len show little if any foam so for now I've tried to skip it. The third render is just me throwing in some basic models for fun so I can test the upward caustic pattern as well. There are two caustic gels applied one facing down and one facing upward which we can see on the side of the ship. The caustic lights are True Parallel light with "Infinite Width" selected. I should also state that the Sun position has been changed for the third render, shining more directly instead of from behind as in the first two renders.

    The water color has been an interesting study. When I removed all color from the Transparent and Volume Color Channels I found the water did not reflect the blue sky enough to gain any real color, so it looked unnaturally colorless. I had to add the color directly to the water. via the Transparent and Volume Color channels. I am using an altitude filter that progresses from white to deep blue at the base of the water terrain to create the look of increased particulate concentration at deeper depths. But alas it seems to create an odd effect where the waves that are tallest render as slight clearer water than the troughs of the waves. Not physically accurate but at least it is a start.

    As always feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks a ton guys!

    EDIT: I had a terrible time uploading these images in the proper sequence. Rather than to present the images in the order they were uploaded and named it instead decided to order them based on file size. ARGHH!!!!

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    Post edited by Rashad Carter on
  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    You're just messing around, surely :-P

    I still think the water is bad considering it's a RashRender.
    The edge of the water, the sand colour, what's that all about?

    One of the most obvious problems with it is the sudden change in colour between the water and sand. It makes the water look like a shiny sheet that can be peeled off' the sand! Clear water doesn't look like that (perfect excuse to look at that arse pic again for a perfect example).

    In order to get clear blending into a deeper colour as the water gets deeper, you need to apply volumetrics correctly. Remember the trick Peasant Brinnen discovered for giving Bryce exactly the same feature as In-Scattering used in Carrara?

    That's what you need to be doing, and if you already are, the problem might be how you are doing it. Let's say you took a cube and made it into a volume of water just to test it. Only the top of the cube has wave shapes on it. Then you sink that cube into the sand so that the top of the water is where you want it.

    That might sound sensible but it'll never work.

    And that's where the problem lies with volumetric water, because although you got it looking right on the cube, the volume isn't going to change depending on how far you sink it into the sand. The way to deal with that is easy, you make the volume the same shape as you need it (or at least very close to it). In other words, a volume of water that is covering the sand at the edges needs to be a thin wedge shape, not a cube, and it;s edge needs to lie just a fraction below the sand. It matters because when Bryce calculates the soft edge of a volumetric, that soft edge is always defined by the actual shape of the volume shape (the object).

    You might even be able to do a boolean on the water/sand to make the volume the right shape.

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    Alright, so I've attempted this again and this time I think I've got it more or less right. I applied a map to bleach the water along the shoreline to give the appearance of clarity. The mapping allows for the color to return at slightly deeper depths. I've also worked a good bit on the caustic pattern which is what drives the detail in the shallow regions just like in the reference photos.

    I am still figuring out a way to fix the caustic sharp edge along the shoreline. This is caused because the True Parallel Light is flat but the terrain water surface is not so they don't always strike the island terrain in the same place. To some degree I like the idea of a little bit of clear water with caustic introduced smoothly so that's what I'm after.

    Feedback as always is greatly appreciated.

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  • GussNemoGussNemo Posts: 1,855
    edited December 1969

    @Rashad: While the edges of the water in the second image look better, more what a person would expect to see, the water itself looks better in the first image. Is there a way to get the edge affect with the water of the first image?

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    GussNemo said:
    @Rashad: While the edges of the water in the second image look better, more what a person would expect to see, the water itself looks better in the first image. Is there a way to get the edge affect with the water of the first image?

    Gotta say I love your new goofy avatar!

    I tried to use the same material for the water in both of the shots the only difference is the bleaching along the edge.

    Here is a new attempt where I have made the water a bit wavier and hopefully more natural. I also think I got the caustic scaling right. Feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

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  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Rashad, you are a peasant with a talent for terrible water, and for the life of me I can't think why!

    How can one who comes up with clever velvet contraptions be so bloody bad at water?

    The water looks strongly self-coloured, the sand colour looks off, and one thing that might be making it a lot worse is that you're not blending the line between the edge of the water and the sand. Try making the sand as shiny as the water at the edges but gradually tapering off into a dull finish for the sand. Just experiment with how much feather you need. The reflection and specularity of the water needs to be blended into the dull off the sand, but the blend needs to be done on the sand.

    Remember, when sand gets wet it is getting coated in the same reflective and specular properties of the water because it's getting coated in water, it's only the texture of the sand itself that dissipates the gloss!

  • GussNemoGussNemo Posts: 1,855
    edited December 1969

    @Rashad: Thought I'd change avatars to fit how I've been feeling most days. All this learning has me feeling like the avatar looks. Now if I can only remember to save the work I spend time creating.

    I think the water surface of your latest has the right amount of agitation, but is too dark for shallow water. Still, it's better than I can accomplish at this time.

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    pumeco said:
    Rashad, you are a peasant with a talent for terrible water, and for the life of me I can't think why!

    How can one who comes up with clever velvet contraptions be so bloody bad at water?

    The water looks strongly self-coloured, the sand colour looks off, and one thing that might be making it a lot worse is that you're not blending the line between the edge of the water and the sand. Try making the sand as shiny as the water at the edges but gradually tapering off into a dull finish for the sand. Just experiment with how much feather you need. The reflection and specularity of the water needs to be blended into the dull off the sand, but the blend needs to be done on the sand.

    Remember, when sand gets wet it is getting coated in the same reflective and specular properties of the water because it's getting coated in water, it's only the texture of the sand itself that dissipates the gloss!

    Just want to thank you and Peter for pushing me farther on the water. I dont know if I can ever get it where it needs to be.

    The subject is more challenging than it at first appears.

    The sand is an interesting consideration. The darkening of the sand along the water line is caused by the reflection filter. So the higher the value I assign to the reflection the more energy/brightness it subtracts from the diffuse color creating the darkness along the water's edge. I would use more reflection but it would darken the sand along the water even more than it already does, as it's already a bit too dark for me. I should also state that this project is rendered in standard AA, I dont have premium effect options available to me, no blurred reflection or transmissions, no dof or any other tools that one might employ. I cannot even use TA. The main issue is the render time especially with the cloud slab, pretty much makes premium effects unreachable.

    David has a trick where he uses an additional terrain that sits on top of the sand along the shore to produce the wet sand receding back into the sea ideal. This idea is great but it too runs into the same basic problem that there is no way to smoothly progress from a dry to wet surface. There is always a distinct line where the water effect starts. As Peter notes, it is a CG giveaway and one I do hope to overcome. I do not know of any way to blend the water edge into the sand, however I am very open to any suggestions of ways to do it.

    tricky stuff.

    I've been researching water and how it gets its color and I find that water does have some color of its own. Not sure if it comes from the blue/green algae or what, but the water has distinct color, it isnt all just reflection from the sky. It only appears to be clear in the shallower areas near the shore, but at deeper depths the water is far from clear. If you think back to the reference image we discussed before, the fifth in that series I uploaded where you initially felt the refraction was wrong, you will notice how the water seems clear along the shore but deep blue a little farther out. That blueness is not a reflection of the sky, because as you will observe that the sky and the water are very different shades of blue, which would not be the case if the water was merely reflecting the color of the sky.

    Well, I am in the process of tearing the entire project up and rebuilding it so there's a chance I might get some more ideas.

  • HoroHoro Posts: 4,271
    edited December 1969

    I've been researching water and how it gets its color and I find that water does have some color of its own. Not sure if it comes from the blue/green algae or what, but the water has distinct color, it isnt all just reflection from the sky.

    I cannot contribute much to all this but the statement above is correct. Though I don't know about the sea water a lot, I know why there are rivers that look milky. I once collected a bottle of such whitish nontransparent water. It took 6 month until it was clear and the sediments settled on the bottom. Just moving the bottle a bit careless made the completely clear water milky again.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I do not know of any way to blend the water edge into the sand, however I am very open to any suggestions of ways to do it.

    What? - Just use Specular and Reflection Maps!

    Forget the scene for a second and just play around with the surface of, say, a tilted cube dipping into a water-plane at a sharp angle. Play with the feathering to your hearts content, and when you're happy, apply the settings to your scene. I know what an obsessive peasant you are for doing things in super-detailed environments!

    If you only have two basic objects in your scene you will be more prepared to tweak and it will happen a lot quicker. You're mating two objects/materials, so that's all you need to test it.

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    pumeco said:
    I do not know of any way to blend the water edge into the sand, however I am very open to any suggestions of ways to do it.

    What? - Just use Specular and Reflection Maps!

    Forget the scene for a second and just play around with the surface of, say, a tilted cube dipping into a water-plane at a sharp angle. Play with the feathering to your hearts content, and when you're happy, apply the settings to your scene. I know what an obsessive peasant you are for doing things in super-detailed environments!

    If you only have two basic objects in your scene you will be more prepared to tweak and it will happen a lot quicker. You're mating two objects/materials, so that's all you need to test it.

    I am already doing what you suggest. The dark sand touching the water is dark due to a reflection map. It's hard to see from here but if you get close enough to the sand you will see reflections along the dark sand touching the water. For specular, I'm not even using any so far. The issue is marrying the water terrain smoothly into the sand terrain, and for that I am at a loss. The water is not a flat plane, it is a dynamic terrain surface so specular and reflection being highly perspective dependent dont behave as on a flat plane. I am hitting a wall with the water and it is frustrating. If I had access to the internet from home I would post up the material settings I used for the sand and the water.

    If you could help me out with visual examples that would be great. I know this seems easy but its much harder than it looks.

    Again, thanks for taking the time to help me out.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited November 2012

    I don't even know my way around the Terrain Editor (I never use it, I do plain boring stuff) so I can't really do that.

    I assume you're after a way to make the maps on the sand follow the modeled edge of the water so that they meet up along the whole surface. I've never done it myself, but if I had such a project where I needed to do that, all I would do is this:

    1 - Place the water plane and terrain so that they intersect and create a waterline.
    2 - Shape the terrain so that it creates the waterline you want.
    3 - Make the water opaque to give a strong outline (this will be your template).
    4 - Do a Top View render so that you clearly see the outline of the water.
    5 - Load the render into PSP, Photo-Paint, PhotoPlus, or whatever image editor you use.
    6 - Use the waters edge as a template to create your Specular and Reflection maps.

    When you apply those maps to your scene, they should follow the waters edge perfectly no matter how basic or complicated the edge is. Like I said, I've never tried it, but that's definitely the way I would do such a thing.

    Post edited by pumeco on
  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    pumeco said:
    I don't even know my way around the Terrain Editor (I never use it, I do plain boring stuff) so I can't really do that.

    I assume you're after a way to make the maps on the sand follow the modeled edge of the water so that they meet up along the whole surface. I've never done it myself, but if I had such a project where I needed to do that, all I would do is this:

    1 - Place the water plane and terrain so that they intersect and create a waterline.
    2 - Shape the terrain so that it creates the waterline you want.
    3 - Make the water opaque to give a strong outline (this will be your template).
    4 - Do a Top View render so that you clearly see the outline of the water.
    5 - Load the render into PSP, Photo-Paint, PhotoPlus, or whatever image editor you use.
    6 - Use the waters edge as a template to create your Specular and Reflection maps.

    When you apply those maps to your scene, they should follow the waters edge perfectly no matter how basic or complicated the edge is. Like I say, never tried it, but that's definitely the way I would do such a thing.

    Yes, I am already doing what you suggest. Actually, the dark sand comes from an altitude filter so reflection only happens along the water line, but with the reflection comes along with a diffuse color subtraction. The darker the sand the greater the reflection.

    Ah, but that is just it. I am not marrying a water plane on a terrain as you might be thinking, I am marrying two terrains themselves. The water itself is a terrain, not a flat plane. Terrain on terrain is the problem. A flat water plane looks especially horrible for several reasons which is why I chose to use a terrain for the water.

    I've hit a wall on this water issue. I think it might even be a Bryce limitation, but I hate blaming the software. I will keep working at it.

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,397
    edited December 1969

    Using it slightly differently than you want to Rashad, but I duplicated my terrain, erased all but the very edge of it to get a terrain like this, which I then moved a tiny tad on the x and z and applied a texture. I used a foamy sort of texture, as mine was for a river.

    Just a thought

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  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,034
    edited December 1969

    Forgot to add that I am using a top view image to produce the bleaching of the water along the shore. I masked the island so I could get just the water and then I applied an image with white along the shore allowing color the from the blend in a little bit away.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Ah, but that is just it. I am not marrying a water plane on a terrain as you might be thinking, I am marrying two terrains themselves. The water itself is a terrain, not a flat plane. Terrain on terrain is the problem. A flat water plane looks especially horrible for several reasons which is why I chose to use a terrain for the water.

    Out of curiosity, what difference does it make that you're using a terrain for the water?

    It's better to use a terrain anyway, and I don't see what difference it makes to the procedure, I don't understand why you can't create the template in the same way. Let me know what the difference is so that I understand what you're getting at, or what it is that's holding you back on it.

  • pumecopumeco Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I'll check back in an hour, Red Dwarf X is about to start :mrgreen:

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