NEW Tyler and Miki 4.0 products--. PROBLEM: Bone rotations create deforms in the wrong places!

Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
edited September 2012 in Carrara Discussion

Hi everyone :)

I have brought characters from content paradise, Daz store and other places before and NEVER had problems such as the one I am having now. My characters have worked `out of the box` real well for me BUT with these characters, well you will see by the attached images.

I have tried importing them as PZ3 files AND by browsing for them from the content tabs, I get this issue using Carrara 8.1.1.12 Pro (64bit) AND the 8.5 (172) Beta.

Do I need to convert them some other way? Is there a tool to make these NEW poser characters work in Carrara fully just like other Poser characters do? Would a lesson in weight painting fix this? Any advice on how to get the characters limbs to rotate with out deforming the rest of the model would be great please :)

A couple of the morph sliders do nothing (such as the sliders for the hands on Tyler, you can not change an open hand to a grip with the grip slider!) and when selecting his head and rotating it, you seem to rotate his lower neck along with the head making the head and neck dis-connect from the body. Also, the under arms (rib cage) seems to deform under the arms when trying to pose the arms hanging down by the side of the body!!! Groin areas deform at the top of the legs when they are moved and shoulders seem to flatten when the arm is raised.

I am guessing that the creator of these two characters (or SmithMicro/poser) are changing their standard method of creating characters as all poser characters and Daz characters have worked perfectly up until now!

The last time I came across anything like this was when Genesis was first introduced and I was trying to get that in to Carrara.


Thank you for your time :)

Post edited by Chohole on
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Comments

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 19,877
    edited December 1969

    Edited the thread title so that the length of it did not break forum formatting.

  • BagoasBagoas Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    Did you load the models into Poser 9 or Poser Pro 2012, with Service Release 3 installed?
    Tyler and Miki4 use technology specific for those Poser versions and any action in any other program or in not-updated Poser versions is not guaranteed.
    If you want to use them in any other program you may have to wait until the developers of that program have brought their product to par with Poser.

    Post edited by Bagoas on
  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    chohole said:
    Edited the thread title so that the length of it did not break forum formatting.

    Thanks chohole, sorry about that :)

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks for the reply Bagoas :)

    Quote:"Did you load the models into Poser 9 or Poser Pro 2012, with Service Release 3 installed?
    Tyler and Miki4 use technology specific for those Poser versions and any action in any other program or in not-updated Poser versions is not guaranteed. "

    I am using 9.0.3.22472

    Quote:"If you want to use them in any other program you may have to wait until the developers of that program have brought their product to par with Poser. "

    ....Oh well, guess I wont be using them in Carrara ANY time soon then :(

    Does this mean that ANY future purchases from content paradise (poser characters) wont work in Carrara any more?

    Daz cant even get out of Beta stage with 8.5 (after all this time!) let alone think about fixing any of 8.1.1.12 pro`s issues :(

    Funny how 8.5 has a lot of `bug fixes` that are desperatly needed in 8.1 BUT did not seem to make it to `8.1.1.13` (so to speak)!

    Too busy releasing Genesis, M5,V5 (the list goes on) to care about the damage left to a broken/incomplete product sold to so many people who have lost faith!

    Any who, thank you for your reply :)

    Post edited by Orion_Uk on
  • DustRiderDustRider Posts: 1,027
    edited December 1969

    This thread in the old forums may be of some help:
    http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=186247&highlight=import

    Unfortunately it looks like Fenric's plugin is no longer available at the link location given. Maybe he will pop in here and provide a new link location (darn it, I didn't grab it when I had a chance).

  • BagoasBagoas Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Orion_Uk said:

    I am using 9.0.3.22472

    Hmm. I do not get this with Poser Pro 2012 and I have not heard of anyone else getting this. If you get this with Poser, you best contact SM support. They are keen to get those figures out well.


    Does this mean that ANY future purchases from content paradise (poser characters) wont work in Carrara any more?


    Do not think so. If products are specific for latest Poser version it will say so in the spec I think. You need to purchase Poser versions, so there's many users with older versions around. Just check the info or ask support.

  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    dustrider said:
    This thread in the old forums may be of some help:
    http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=186247&highlight=import

    Unfortunately it looks like Fenric's plugin is no longer available at the link location given. Maybe he will pop in here and provide a new link location (darn it, I didn't grab it when I had a chance).

    Many thanks dustrider ;)

    I did a quick google hunt but (so far) i am hitting brick walls :(

    I tried Carrara Cafe, ShareCG, a few other places but all links are dead, will keep looking :)

    Is Fenric still active? I dont see much from him past Dec 2011...

    Anyway, thank you so much for trying to help.. was SO promising as well ;)

    I started to feel like a creepy stalker !, eeek :P

  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Bagoas said:
    Orion_Uk said:

    I am using 9.0.3.22472

    Hmm. I do not get this with Poser Pro 2012 and I have not heard of anyone else getting this. If you get this with Poser, you best contact SM support. They are keen to get those figures out well.

    Orion_Uk said:

    Does this mean that ANY future purchases from content paradise (poser characters) wont work in Carrara any more?

    Do not think so. If products are specific for latest Poser version it will say so in the spec I think. You need to purchase Poser versions, so there's many users with older versions around. Just check the info or ask support.

    Hmm. I do not get this with Poser Pro 2012 and I have not heard of anyone else getting this. If you get this with Poser, you best contact SM support. They are keen to get those figures out well.

    So you can export Tyler and Miki from Poser 2012 to Carrara 8.1.1.12 pro or 8.5 with no issues then ?

    I am prob getting it wrong here but (its been another long day and i am knackered!).. You do know that both Tyler and Miki open fine in my version of Poser 9 (9.0.3.22472) right?

    Maybe I misunderstood your comment, I was not sure if you knew that the images (and the issue) above were rendered in Carrara 8.1.1.12 & 8.5 Beta :)

    I cant imagine Smith Micro messing with a product that works fine in Poser just to please us mere mortal Carrara users :P

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 653
    edited December 1969

    Fenric is still around. He's posted in a couple other threads the past few days.

  • head waxhead wax Posts: 2,919
    edited December 1969

    hya it's probably old news but as far as I remember these figures are designed with the new poser weight mapping blah blah and consequently don't translate to carrara which has different kind of weight mapping - see this for some more info http://poser.smithmicro.com/whats-new.html


    mind you my memory is bad

  • BagoasBagoas Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    Orion_Uk said:

    Maybe I misunderstood your comment, I was not sure if you knew that the images (and the issue) above were rendered in Carrara 8.1.1.12 & 8.5 Beta :)

    Well that indeed from your question and in particular from your reply was not clear to me.
    Good to hear the figures work fine in your Poser 9.

    regards

    Post edited by Bagoas on
  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Bagoas said:
    Orion_Uk said:

    Maybe I misunderstood your comment, I was not sure if you knew that the images (and the issue) above were rendered in Carrara 8.1.1.12 & 8.5 Beta :)

    Well that indeed from your question and in particular from your reply was not clear to me.
    Good to hear the figures work fine in your Poser 9.

    regards

    Please excuse my brain fail due to lack of sleep :P

    Thanks again to you all for your kind replies :)

  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    Hello. :)

    Yes, I had written a utility to extract Poser weight maps to a Carrara CWM file that you could import onto a figure. It even worked reasonably well... as long as you didn't want to save the results: Carrara has a bug and will not save the new custom weights.

    https://bugs.daz3d.com/view.php?id=46210

    I discovered that the bug is a design flaw in the way that the CAR files that have Poser content are set up, so I don't expect to see it fixed. Ever. So, I took the utility down because I didn't want to have to keep explaining that it doesn't work and probably won't ever work the way you would hope.

    I moved on to another strategy that looks pretty good so far. But since then, I've been busy and hadn't had a chance to finish up the project to the point that I wanted to give it to anyone.

  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    Hi Fenric :)

    Many thanks for your reply and for your hard work. Your achievements in this community are highly respected and gratefully received :)

    I moved on to another strategy that looks pretty good so far. But since then, I’ve been busy and hadn’t had a chance to finish up the project to the point that I wanted to give it to anyone.

    Hope to see the fruits of your labor real soon ;)

    Post edited by Orion_Uk on
  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    Distracted fox forgets how far along various projects were.

    It's actually done already. Here's a link (and a look at one of the things that was keeping me busy):

    http://fenric.com/wordpress/store/products/poser-weightmap-injector/

  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    I'm going to have to tweak the instructions a bit - the utilities output to a file that ends in "_converted" rather than overwriting the original.

    Miki4's feet don't work. Not sure why.

  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    Ok...

    That is the WEIRDEST rigging I have EVER seen.

    The feet aren't parented to the legs, and not even the hip: they're directly attached to the "BODY" node. I can't see how that is possibly supposed to be right, and is certainly not going to work with Carrara.

    It's that way both in the actor (the parent is BODY:2) and down in the figure tree (addChild lFoot:2 ... BODY:2), so I assume they meant it to be that way.

    If you fix that problem (parent in the actor and in the figure hierarchy) before you load the CR2 into Carrara for the first time (that is, between steps 3 and 4 in the instructions), then she will work the same as in Poser.

    And by that I mean "not very well". Frankly... I'm glad she was free.

  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hi Fenric :)

    Lol, your right...WEIRD... :P

    Many thanks for the upload, I am trying things out now ;)

    I must be following your instructions v-badly tho!

    I only own Poser 9 (sp3) BUT I am using my brothers laptop with Poser 2012 for tonight, he wants it back tomorrow :(

    I am hitting one or two brick walls atm !

    Firstly:

    In Poser 2012, running the script (MergeAllZonesToWeights.py) results in the following error in poser output window:

    Merging waist twisty
    Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "C:\Users\orion_uk\Desktop\Test\Tool\PoserWeightmapInjector\MergeAllZonesToWeights.py", line 6, in
    param.AddZone(poser.kZoneTypeCodeMERGEDWEIGHTMAP)
    AttributeError: AddZone


    Secondly:

    Step 4
    Load the CR2 into a new, empty Carrara scene and save the scene to an UNCOMPRESSED
    CAR file. The figure MUST be the only figure in the scene (no clothing! no props!).
    The scene MUST be un-compressed.

    Carrara 8.1.1.12 pro (64bit) locks up at this point and does nothing apart from the GUI going `grey` and then application force close, When trying to import Tyrler_converted.cr2. I even deleted the default light and camera!

    Importing Tyler.cr2 imports in Carrara BUT Tyler_converted.cr2 causes Carrara to crash.

    I can create a Tyler_converted.car file (in PoserWeightmapInjector.exe) using Tyler.cr2 but NOT when using Tyler_converted.cr2 !!!

    I hope some of this made sense to you?

    :P

  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited September 2012

    The Poser script error means you don't have Service Pack 2 installed. You have to - there was no weight map support in python until service pack 2.

    I haven't tried Tyler, yet. I only tried Miki 4. It's entirely possible that there is something wrong with Tyler that my utility can't fix.

    Post edited by Fenric on
  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    Tyler has the same issue as Miki: the feet are parented to the BODY instead of the shin. Carrara really doesn't like that - you'll have to fix that before you can go any further.

    Everything worked fine after that. GND-Tyler isn't too bad. A bit bubble-shouldered, but there are some manual adjustment morphs that fix it.

  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    Thanks for the updates :)

    The Poser script error means you don’t have Service Pack 2 installed. You have to - there was no weight map support in python until service pack 2.

    I haven’t tried Tyler, yet. I only tried Miki 4. It’s entirely possible that there is something wrong with Tyler that my utility can’t fix.


    Well I had to give my brother back his laptop so I don't have access to Poser 2012 now :(

    I have tried the process (word for word) using Poser 9 (with SP3) with exception of the poser 2012 optional phase, but Carrara still hangs when trying to import the modified Tyler_unconverted.cr2.

    Just to be clear (with your instructions) am I doing the following correctly?:

    Step 1:

    Copy the following to a folder on the desktop..

    Tyler.cr2
    Tyler.pmd
    Tyler.png
    Tyler.xmp

    Genitals (folder) containing..

    Tyler Genitals.crz
    Tyler Genitals.pmd
    Tyler Genitals.png
    Tyler Genitals.xmp

    Step 2:

    Run the PreparePoserFile utility on Tyler.cr2 (in folder on desktop) Press GO, feedback box opens saying ALL DONE.

    DELETE Tyler.cr2 (original file) and rename Tyler_converted.cr2 to Tyler.cr2.

    Step 3:

    Run Carrara 8.1.1.12 pro (64 bit), create a new scene ( i choose to delete the default light and camera so nothing remains in the scene) and then go to file/import (please see attached image) and use options in the screen shot image. PRESS OK.


    At this point the mouse does its `sand dial` thing, Carrara becomes UN-responsive. I click on the screen (which then goes grey) waiting for ages does nothing and the program remains UN-responsive to the point where I have to use the Task manager to close Carrara.

    Do I need to change any of the poser importer options ?

    I cant go any further with regards to steps 5,6 & 7 due to Carrara crashing at step 4 :(

    MIKI4:

    You must edit the CR2 between steps 3 and 4 (after prep but before loading into Carrara
    for the first time). The feet are parented to the BODY, when they should be parented
    to the shins. You must edit both actor sections to change the parent, and the figure
    section to change the hierarchy.

    Do you mean edit the hierarchy in poser? as this may be where I am going wrong :P

    I did try this but Poser 9 tells me that the file being read is not a valid poser file !

    Thanks Fenric :)

    poser_import_options.PNG
    295 x 240 - 26K
    Post edited by Orion_Uk on
  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    Ok, first off something really important that I forgot to mention: All of these characters with PMD files need to be re-saved without them before you can do anything else at all. Open Poser, make sure "Use Binary Morph Targets" is unchecked, and then open Tyler and just re-save him immediately. Carrara doesn't handle PMD files very well at all (usually not at all, some very specific cirumstances just work poorly)

    Second, I mean that you have to edit the CR2 text file. If you don't have a CR2 editor, you really ought to get one - they make some of these operations so very much easier. I use the Poser File Editor by Dimension3D which you can get at Renderosity. Lacking that, you'll have to go through it with a text editor. I recommend the freeware "Notepad++" (but get it from the main site, as mirrors have a nasty tendancy to have viruses)

    Seach for "actor lFoot". You'll probably find lots of them, but you are looking for one that is followed immediately by a curly brace and a name line:

    actor lFoot:1
    {
    name Left Foot

    Under that will be a line

    parent BODY:1

    change it to

    parent lFoot:1

    repeat with the rFoot

    repeat with Miki4


    Carrara should be able to load it after this (it did for me)

  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited September 2012

    Oh, and avoid loading Poser files with "Import" - it doesn't always work properly. Put the files in the proper places in the runtime and load from the Browser. You had "convert skinning" unchecked, which will cause problems.

    Post edited by Fenric on
  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    You sir, are an amazing person indeed :)

    The last couple of posts gave me a better understanding of what to do and its seems to have worked (99.9%) Thank you :)
    There does seem to be issues with the hands (bone rotation of the smallest finger closest to the knuckle results in deforming in the wrong place) Also, Parameters/misc/Hand controls---don't work! (eg:grasp etc) BUT the rest seems perfect ;)

    I can now pose Tyler`s body and head with out all those nasty issues I had before. :)

    GND-Tyler isn’t too bad. A bit bubble-shouldered, but there are some manual adjustment morphs that fix it.

    Yah, i love this character and am looking forward to some great scenes with him in ;)

    Thank you for being so helpful, for the tool to do this and your time and patience with me :)

    Now for Miki..

    Finger_bone_rotations-max_rotation_w-out_deform_hand_too_much.png
    1920 x 1080 - 405K
    Finger_bone_rotations.png
    1920 x 1080 - 783K
    pic-1-.png
    1920 x 1080 - 193K
    pic-3-.png
    1920 x 1080 - 198K
    pic-2-.png
    1920 x 1080 - 254K
    Post edited by Orion_Uk on
  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    Here is a few images of joints that i cant seem to rotate correctly!

    Mainly the knees, the last bone before the hands knuckles also seem to deform and stop me making the clenched fist!

    Scene_Test-2-.png
    1920 x 1080 - 901K
    last_finger_bone_b4_knuckle.png
    1920 x 1080 - 2M
    Knuckle_bone_on_hand_lower_finger_bone_rotation.png
    1920 x 1080 - 768K
    knees.png
    1920 x 1080 - 1M
    fist_attempt.png
    1920 x 1080 - 740K
    Post edited by Orion_Uk on
  • FenricFenric Posts: 304
    edited December 1969

    There are two problems

    First, the new figures use the Poser 8 "capsule" rigging, which Carrara doesn't understand. This is why you really need a pass through Poser Pro - so you can convert those to weight maps.

    Secondly, Tyler and Miki both use a new feature of Poser where bones can now operate on any group, not just the main group and its parent. It is especially used on the hands and feet, but quite a few places have it. Carrara does not understand that rigging, and that is what the PreparePoserFile removes. This does mean that the figures don't work quite as we'll as they might have. This problem is also fixed by Poser Pro.

  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited September 2012

    Thanks :)

    Looking at the website, I can sidegrade from P9 to 2012 for £164.00..

    Looks like I am off to make a deal with (beg) the wife, here comes 100yrs of washing up and extra jobs around the house, IF I am successful ! :P

    Scene_Test-3-.png
    1920 x 1080 - 1002K
    Post edited by Orion_Uk on
  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 642
    edited December 1969

    Posted a news piece about the new plugin and renders in this thread at CarraraCafe:
    http://carraracafe.com/?p=2300

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 642
    edited December 1969

    Got another news post at http://www.jurn.org/dazposer/?p=1758

  • Orion_UkOrion_Uk Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    3drendero said:
    Posted a news piece about the new plugin and renders in this thread at CarraraCafe:
    http://carraracafe.com/?p=2300

    Thanks for the info/links 3drendero ;)

    Complete credit to Fenric for helping me with this, for providing us with this free tool and for his kind work towards the Carrara Community, Shame my renders are so basic but I am glad they can play a small part in promoting Fenrics amazing work :)

  • 3drendero3drendero Posts: 642
    edited December 1969

    You are welcome.
    Fenric pulls the heavy load, but your renders are needed to show what can be done.
    Others like me just spread the word.

    Also posted in the Carrara section of Renderosity:
    http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=106

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