Non-photorealistic Renders (NPR)

Leana · January 2016

Well if you ever manage to get that working for other people I would definitely be interested too...

RAMWolff · January 2016

Well if the bottom line is that your using their tech to create your scripts.. well keep in mind that we all use DAZ's tech. I mean if DAZ were to come out and say you can't make a skin for our figures because that's breaking our new policy because the UV's are ours and you can't use them... well the market would fail on top of that. If they were to have you sign some agreement or you were to sell them your tech to bind with theirs to include as either something built into DAZ Studio or something they would sell as a DAZ Original, would you be cool with that? You would get paid and we, the end user, would have a great script to meet our desires. .....

algovincian · January 2016

algovincian said:

First of all I can't speak for DAZ. Secondly, to be clear, I believe DAZ was interested if the technology could be packaged up and sold just like any other product in their store. I believe the fact that part of it could (the analysis pass shaders/scripts), but the second part can't (the sketching, painting, etc.) complicated things. They've obviously invested a lot in setting up their marketplace, and I can appreciate a desire stick to the system that is already established and proven to work. Also, if I had just made the major move to switch default render engine to Iray, I may not be overly enthusiastic about making special accomodations for new technology based on 3DL, either.

- Greg

RAMWolff said:

Well if the bottom line is that your using their tech to create your scripts.. well keep in mind that we all use DAZ's tech. I mean if DAZ were to come out and say you can't make a skin for our figures because that's breaking our new policy because the UV's are ours and you can't use them... well the market would fail on top of that. If they were to have you sign some agreement or you were to sell them your tech to bind with theirs to include as either something built into DAZ Studio or something they would sell as a DAZ Original, would you be cool with that? You would get paid and we, the end user, would have a great script to meet our desires. .....

I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better. Let me take the time to try and explain the current process with a concrete example:

Step #1 - Analysis Passes

I've written scripts that dynamically apply custom shaders to every node in a scene in DAZ Studio, one at a time. After applying each shader and setting parameters intelligently for each material, the script will render out the scene and save the resulting file. For each analysis pass, the script applies a different shader, sets the parameters for each material, and then renders. Currently, the 8 analysis passes are: highlights, color, base, world mask, fresnel, ambient occlusion, z-depth, and energy. Below is a concrete example of what these 8 image files look like for the mermaid I posted yesterday in the other NPR thread:

Step #2 - Illustration

I've also developed technology that takes the analysis passes from step #1 and, based on all the information they contain, produces many different styles of illustrations (sketches, paintings, etc.). Below, for example, are 2 of the styles produced:

What I was attempting to say, is that right now, step #1 is accomplished using DAZ Studio. If you had the scripts and shaders installed on your machine, then you could accomplish step #1 and produce the analysis passes, too.

Step #2, illustration, has nothing to do with DAZ Studio. The technology that I've developed to accomplish step #2 does not utilize DAZ Studio at all. It is this 2nd part of the process that cannot be packaged up, and sold/distributed. This complicates things and means that it can't be a standard product, like all the others.

Again, I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better!

Also, I'd like to add that the scripts and shaders could be duplicated in other 3D packages. I explained why I chose DAZ in a previous post:

algovincian said:

I started developing the analysis passes using DAZ Studio because (1) you can script DS, (2) it's easy to author 3DL shaders in DS, and (3) there is a huge array of high quality content for DS readily accesible for testing. I find DS to be extremely stable for rendering the analysis passes, and I'm very comfortable using it. The other infrastructure that DAZ has in place (accounts, sales, marketing, etc.) would seem to be a good fit, too.

- Greg

WendyLuvsCatz · January 2016

using iClone toon render

NoName99 · January 2016

algovincian said:

algovincian said:

First of all I can't speak for DAZ. Secondly, to be clear, I believe DAZ was interested if the technology could be packaged up and sold just like any other product in their store. I believe the fact that part of it could (the analysis pass shaders/scripts), but the second part can't (the sketching, painting, etc.) complicated things. They've obviously invested a lot in setting up their marketplace, and I can appreciate a desire stick to the system that is already established and proven to work. Also, if I had just made the major move to switch default render engine to Iray, I may not be overly enthusiastic about making special accomodations for new technology based on 3DL, either.

- Greg

RAMWolff said:

Well if the bottom line is that your using their tech to create your scripts.. well keep in mind that we all use DAZ's tech. I mean if DAZ were to come out and say you can't make a skin for our figures because that's breaking our new policy because the UV's are ours and you can't use them... well the market would fail on top of that. If they were to have you sign some agreement or you were to sell them your tech to bind with theirs to include as either something built into DAZ Studio or something they would sell as a DAZ Original, would you be cool with that? You would get paid and we, the end user, would have a great script to meet our desires. .....

I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better. Let me take the time to try and explain the current process with a concrete example:

Step #1 - Analysis Passes

I've written scripts that dynamically apply custom shaders to every node in a scene in DAZ Studio, one at a time. After applying each shader and setting parameters intelligently for each material, the script will render out the scene and save the resulting file. For each analysis pass, the script applies a different shader, sets the parameters for each material, and then renders. Currently, the 8 analysis passes are: highlights, color, base, world mask, fresnel, ambient occlusion, z-depth, and energy. Below is a concrete example of what these 8 image files look like for the mermaid I posted yesterday in the other NPR thread:

Step #2 - Illustration

I've also developed technology that takes the analysis passes from step #1 and, based on all the information they contain, produces many different styles of illustrations (sketches, paintings, etc.). Below, for example, are 2 of the styles produced:

What I was attempting to say, is that right now, step #1 is accomplished using DAZ Studio. If you had the scripts and shaders installed on your machine, then you could accomplish step #1 and produce the analysis passes, too.

Step #2, illustration, has nothing to do with DAZ Studio. The technology that I've developed to accomplish step #2 does not utilize DAZ Studio at all. It is this 2nd part of the process that cannot be packaged up, and sold/distributed. This complicates things and means that it can't be a standard product, like all the others.

Again, I know it's complicated, and I apologize for lacking the ability to explain it better!

Also, I'd like to add that the scripts and shaders could be duplicated in other 3D packages. I explained why I chose DAZ in a previous post:

algovincian said:

I started developing the analysis passes using DAZ Studio because (1) you can script DS, (2) it's easy to author 3DL shaders in DS, and (3) there is a huge array of high quality content for DS readily accesible for testing. I find DS to be extremely stable for rendering the analysis passes, and I'm very comfortable using it. The other infrastructure that DAZ has in place (accounts, sales, marketing, etc.) would seem to be a good fit, too.

- Greg

That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop. What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes. Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork.

Midnight_stories · January 2016

Looking at those render passes it gives me a better idea how it's done !

Amazing

Cybersox · January 2016

To be honest, the render pass splits is really what I was most interested in anyway. I can drop just about any art style in via filter forge, photoshop, etc., but the mysteries of the 3DL render engine are something I haven't really mastered yet. Being able to pull those elements out via a script would be well worth paying for in my book.

algovincian · January 2016

JaguarElla said:

using iClone toon render

That's a great looking render, JaguarElla. I've looked into iClone on more than one occasion - mainly for the hybrid conforming/simulation thing they have going on.

Thanks for contributing to the thread - I'd love to see some more if you have 'em!

- Greg

WendyLuvsCatz · January 2016

I mostly do videos not renders

bit of intersecting mesh unfortunately in this one the cottage exterior should not be loaded with the interior I learnt

some Carrara as well as iClone

algovincian · January 2016

DinoVincent said:

That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop. What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes. Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork.

As it stands now, Step #2, Illustration, produces final output images in the 16-20 million pixel range that take about 40 minutes to cook on my distributed network. In addition to the final output files, there are a slew of intermediate files produced and saved along the way. When all is said and done, about 100 files are written for each scene, taking up well over a half a GB (some are compressed when it doesn't matter, while other files must remain uncompressed).

In order to accomplish this work, there is a ton of software installed/licensed on the boxes that are part of the distributed network (including other software kernels that I have written). I've got VB scripts controlling applications, which in turn are running scripts written for their own proprietary built-in scripting language (just like DAZ). It would take an army of people and a boatload of cash to re-invent all of those wheels and package them all into a single product which could be sold.

Step 2 sounds essentially like postwork, except for the fact that there is no human intervention at all. Decisions are being made dynamically by software on a per-image basis - but not by a person. These decisions are being made constantly during the process. Also, the scale of the "postwork" is immense, and not typical for simple postwork (100 files taking up well over a half a GB, taking multiple computers 40 min).

This has been an evolutionary process for me - incremental progress has been made over thousands of iterations. For 20+ years, I've been running batches overnight, looking at the results in the morning, changing the code, and then re-running the batch that night. I've been doing this every day for decades!

Making the analysis shaders available in the shop presents it's own challenges as well. The analysis shaders need to grab information from not only object geometry, but also from whatever materials are applied. The set of possible materials applied is an infinite set, so you can imagine what a headache this could be.

I hope this better answers your questions. I've been questioned/criticized by many for providing too much information about my work, and I'm sure this post will generate more of that. While I'm not making everything about my work open source, I do believe in freely discussing a lot of the concepts and strategies I've employed.

- Greg

WendyLuvsCatz · January 2016

I am impressed by your dedication

I think many thought it was a simple plugin or script but in fact more work than postworking the image

certainly I would never have the patience to do all that

algovincian · January 2016

JaguarElla said:

I am impressed by your dedication

I think many thought it was a simple plugin or script but in fact more work than postworking the image

certainly I would never have the patience to do all that

Yes . . . I am crazy. I don't deny it, but rather embrace it ;)

- Greg

RAMWolff · January 2016

Thanks for a clearer picture. OK. So DAZ doesn't have their heads up their arses but the process, in time, MIGHT be more streamlined and the time to accomplish the results might also be more streamlined.... in time. The final process MIGHT be something that could be done within DS using the image editor, if the code were expanded to include layering with many if not all of the blend channels that Photoshop offers.

mjc1016 · January 2016

These are 'production' level shaders...

The output should be usable in any compositing program...manually, at least. No, that wouldn't be for everyone, but it would be a usable way of doing things.

algovincian · January 2016

Cybersox13 said:

To be honest, the render pass splits is really what I was most interested in anyway. I can drop just about any art style in via filter forge, photoshop, etc., but the mysteries of the 3DL render engine are something I haven't really mastered yet. Being able to pull those elements out via a script would be well worth paying for in my book.

I would love to see some examples, Cybersox13. If you'd like, I can post the render passes for the dragon slayer scene (which we all have) for you to play with. Let me know.

- Greg

algovincian · January 2016

RAMWolff said:

Thanks for a clearer picture. OK. So DAZ doesn't have their heads up their arses but the process, in time, MIGHT be more streamlined and the time to accomplish the results might also be more streamlined.... in time. The final process MIGHT be something that could be done within DS using the image editor, if the code were expanded to include layering with many if not all of the blend channels that Photoshop offers.

No, RAMWolff. The kernels performing the work are already optimized, and they do so much more than layer blending. Development will conitnue, but at this point, I'm not sure how much more developing (if any) I'll be doing in DS.

- Greg

algovincian · January 2016

mjc1016 said:

These are 'production' level shaders...

The output should be usable in any compositing program...manually, at least. No, that wouldn't be for everyone, but it would be a usable way of doing things.

Yep - you got it mjc! It's just image files that could be used by any application, and produced by any 3D application with the ability to write custom shaders and a built-in scripting language to apply them.

- Greg

algovincian · January 2016

JaguarElla said:

I mostly do videos not renders

Everybody here got a good chuckle out of your Goldilocks video, JaguarElla. Thanks for posting it in the thread!

- Greg

NoName99 · January 2016

algovincian said:

DinoVincent said:

That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop. What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes. Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork.

Step 2 sounds essentially like postwork, except for the fact that there is no human intervention at all. Decisions are being made dynamically by software on a per-image basis - but not by a person. These decisions are being made constantly during the process. Also, the scale of the "postwork" is immense, and not typical for simple postwork (100 files taking up well over a half a GB, taking multiple computers 40 min)

I'm not sure what happened there, but I suspect my use of the term postwork went in another direction.

I certainly wasn't dismissing your process as simple script running or minimizing the effort you've put into it.

As a VFX/compositor working in post-production, postwork isn't a term thats used in a disparaging or insulting way.

To clarify, after principle work has been completed, any work performed during post-production, regardless of size, scale, or level of difficulty, is postwork.

Whether it's a small team of roto-artists working on a few frames, or a render farm of hundreds of computers rendering a large explosion, it's all done in post.

Again, I'm not minimizing your workflow during step 2, or even speculating on what it is.

I was simply suggesting that there may be a market for a package of solely the render passes from what your describing in step 1.

This is a slightly out of the box idea, meaning that instead of marketing it as a NPR product/Shader, it could be packed as a render pass utility.

The multiple render passes can be used in outside compositing software as traveling mattes and layer masks when comping image sequences rendered out of daz with other footage.

Again, this wouldn't be to reproduce your illustrative results.

algovincian · January 2016

DinoVincent said:

algovincian said:

DinoVincent said:

That definitely explains the 2 step workflow fairly well, and how Daz studio is used in step 1, but not step 2.

It's still not clear as to why it can't be sold in the shop. What you're describing in Step 2 sounds essentially like post work, which is usually done outside of Daz.

That being said, I think there would still be a market if all you did package and sell Step 1, the automated render passes. Those are extremely handy for compositing and postwork.

Step 2 sounds essentially like postwork, except for the fact that there is no human intervention at all. Decisions are being made dynamically by software on a per-image basis - but not by a person. These decisions are being made constantly during the process. Also, the scale of the "postwork" is immense, and not typical for simple postwork (100 files taking up well over a half a GB, taking multiple computers 40 min)

I'm not sure what happened there, but I suspect my use of the term postwork went in another direction.

I certainly wasn't dismissing your process as simple script running or minimizing the effort you've put into it.

As a VFX/compositor working in post-production, postwork isn't a term thats used in a disparaging or insulting way.

To clarify, after principle work has been completed, any work performed during post-production, regardless of size, scale, or level of difficulty, is postwork.

Whether it's a small team of roto-artists working on a few frames, or a render farm of hundreds of computers rendering a large explosion, it's all done in post.

Again, I'm not minimizing your workflow during step 2, or even speculating on what it is.

I was simply suggesting that there may be a market for a package of solely the render passes from what your describing in step 1.

This is a slightly out of the box idea, meaning that instead of marketing it as a NPR product/Shader, it could be packed as a render pass utility.

The multiple render passes can be used in outside compositing software as traveling mattes and layer masks when comping image sequences rendered out of daz with other footage.

Again, this wouldn't be to reproduce your illustrative results.

Let me apologize if I came across as being irritated. That certainly wasn't my intent, and any frustration you may have sensed was only frustration with myself for my own inability to communicate effectively. I've been trying, but unable to do so, since April of last year . . . I should probably stop trying, eh?

/facepalm

Back in April, I wanted to release the analysis shaders/scripts for free, assuming an arrangement could be worked out to integrate the illustration somehow. What I ultimately envision is the analysis passes being generated under the hood, with the results being transmitted seamlessly to a render farm for illustration. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot as far as the ability to partner with somebody else in the future who is actually interested in integrating the technology.

Do you have any links to your work, DinoVincent? Would love to see what you're working on.

- Greg

Midnight_stories · January 2016

Had a crack at it but nowhere near you. Still got to get the shadows right and all post work.

algovincian · January 2016

Those are great, Wayne! I like how the outline isn't a hard outline, and the coloring looks good, too. Thanks for sharing your work in this thread, and please keep 'em coming!

- Greg

algovincian · January 2016

Cybersox13 said:

To be honest, the render pass splits is really what I was most interested in anyway. I can drop just about any art style in via filter forge, photoshop, etc., but the mysteries of the 3DL render engine are something I haven't really mastered yet. Being able to pull those elements out via a script would be well worth paying for in my book.

For those who had expressed an interest in playing around, attached are the 8 analysis passes plus the volumetric pass rendered out of DAZ for one particular scene (it's a slight modification of the dragon slayer scene included as an essential). These are the same files (only compressed a bit for upload) that were passed to the illustrators to create the final styles seen here:

http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/982588/#Comment_982588

Notes:

1. the files are split between this post and the one immediately following

2. the world-mask file is solid white because the scene is an enclosed room (normally it would be showing black where the world sphere geometry is showing through)

3. the volumetrics file was rendered much smaller on purpose to cut render times

- Greg

algovincian · January 2016

And here are the remaining 4 files . . .

- Greg

Midnight_stories · January 2016

There was a poser script that used to produce all those render passes "Advanced Render Settings 2" by Semidieu

I may have to dig it out and have a look. Thanks for sharing your renders very inspiring !

algovincian · January 2016

Midnight_stories said:

There was a poser script that used to produce all those render passes "Advanced Render Settings 2" by Semidieu

I may have to dig it out and have a look. Thanks for sharing your renders very inspiring !

Thanks for the info. I googled it and popped up with a PDF manual for it - great stuff! I've never used Poser, but who knows . . . maybe I'll start?

- Greg

DaremoK3 · January 2016

algovincian:

Love the new work you have posted. I love, love, love your work! Keep them coming. They are awe-inspiring. Did I mention that I love your work...

Midnight_stories:

Those are awesome illustrations as well! I know what you mean about feeling like our work is nowhere near his, but yours are always fantastic too. Everytime I look at them I wonder why you haven't published a graphic novel, or comic series yet. But, I know you are a busy man with all your wonderful content creations. Keep up the great work on both fronts, and keep your NPR work coming as well. Helps keep me inspired to play.

Oso3D · January 2016

I've been returning to toon/drawn style rendering, doing stuff... a bit more primitive than Algovincian, but:

I started with Iray render here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/The-Sere-Amphora-582875302

Did a lineart render using DZToon and some of those freebie Geoshell outline things here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Lineart-583213979

Layered them with lineart on Overlay mode, some tweaks to curves: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Semicolored-583359118

Grayscale version: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Gray-583359203

I ended up liking the third ('semicolored') best. I'm redoing it right now because the original Iray render used depth of field, which I need to shut off.

I'm hoping to get PWToon soon and see if that helps workflow. Right now for lineart my method:

Set Diffuse/Ambient color to pure white, no textures. Be sure to have a texture for displacement (if there isn't one, use bump map)

Adjust Outline Threshold and Displacement to get the lines I want. If certain lines aren't appearing, use a geoshell outline to add to it.

If I want a more grayscalish effect, probably drop the ambient and actually use lighting.

algovincian · January 2016

timmins.william said:

I've been returning to toon/drawn style rendering, doing stuff... a bit more primitive than Algovincian, but:

I started with Iray render here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/The-Sere-Amphora-582875302

Did a lineart render using DZToon and some of those freebie Geoshell outline things here: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Lineart-583213979

Layered them with lineart on Overlay mode, some tweaks to curves: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Semicolored-583359118

Grayscale version: http://willbear.deviantart.com/art/Ratman-and-Asaatthi-Gray-583359203

I ended up liking the third ('semicolored') best. I'm redoing it right now because the original Iray render used depth of field, which I need to shut off.

I'm hoping to get PWToon soon and see if that helps workflow. Right now for lineart my method:

Set Diffuse/Ambient color to pure white, no textures. Be sure to have a texture for displacement (if there isn't one, use bump map)

Adjust Outline Threshold and Displacement to get the lines I want. If certain lines aren't appearing, use a geoshell outline to add to it.

If I want a more grayscalish effect, probably drop the ambient and actually use lighting.

Lookin good! Thanks for posting a bit about your process, and let us know how you like PWToon if/when you pick it up.

- Greg

Oso3D · January 2016

I just went 'eh, to hell with it' and got PWToon and already really liking it. Heh.

I don't know why I was so resistant, it's not like I'm somehow more 'real' using DIFFERENT tools.

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