Encryption discussions go here

DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561
edited November 2015 in Daz Studio Discussion

Hey all, in an effort to keep the other threads clean, all concerns with encryption, philosophical or theoretical thoughts, speculations (within reason that wouldn't normally be moderated), etc., are going here. Feel free to continue the discussion in a civil, professional, hopefully rational, manner here and not derail any of the other threads. To kick it off, I'm going to address some of the big points that were brought up that might have gotten lost in all the discussion.

 

  • Encryption will require authenticating to the Daz Connect servers at a minimum of once per computer to get your personal key. We currently don't have an offline method for getting your keys, but is something we will be discussing and see if there is a good method that we can do for smaller patch releases beyond the initial release.
  • There will be an offline mode to install Daz Connect content. It involves downloading a Product Authorization file and a Daz Connect Package, putting it in a place Studio knows about it (will be explained in future documentation), and then Studio processing it at either start up or when triggered by a command (still being worked out).
  • Daz 3D has a planned "fail safe" or "poison pill" that will either unlock all your content or release all the content in unencrypted ways in the event Daz 3D is no longer solvent. The executive team at Daz has confirmed this and we will be updating our EULA to reflect that at the point that we release Studio 4.9 for public release. 
  • All previously released content will always be available unencrypted. We know that its already out there, encrypting it now doesn't buy anything. Because of that, either in the public release or first patch we will be making it so that encryption of products during the install through Daz Connect is a per product thing. So content that is already unencrypted will stay that way once we get it working, even when installed through Daz Connect. Again, this might not be in the first release, but definitely the first patch release shortly after at the latest.
  • Exporting content will always be there and not hampered in any way. This, we feel, isn't a fast and easy way around the encryption as someone won't get the original product that way, but a lossy derivative of it. Depending on the format for export, you potentially lose rigging, skinning, JCMs, or other things that make it an inferior product.
  • There are no current products planned for release as Daz Connect only, meaning only available encrypted. We don’t have a firm date on when 4.9 is going to ship because we’re still in Beta. It will definitely happen though, and the rate it happens is going to be dependent on a number of factors we’ll keep an eye on to make the transition as smooth as possible.
  • You do not need to use Daz Connect or encryption with 4.9. It is completely optional for use of your current content. There will be a requirement for it when Daz Connect only content is released, however acquisition and use of that content is not required.

 

To add a bit of light on all of this, we feel the best way to fight piracy is make the convenience of doing something legally more so than the inconvenience of pirating. That is why we made finding, downloading, installing, and loading content in Studio as streamlined and easy as possible while making getting a pirate-able copy of the original product harder. The type of pirate we are focusing on is two fold, the casual pirates who upload to torrents is one. The bigger one is people who create multiple fraudulent accounts per day, commit credit card fraud to purchase content, and then put those up on their own sites on servers operated over seas where we have no legal recourse and sell subscription services to it or are essentially "pirate for hire" where someone makes a request for a product and they fraudulently purchase from a content site and give it to you for a small fee. We don't think all our users are thieves or potential thieves, and don't want to treat anyone like that. Any measure to deter actual the actual thieves has to be done on a technological level, so has to be built into the software everyone has to use to get the content. 

We also have the theory that encryption in this industry, as opposed to music or movies, will have a different impact than those other industries due to its niche nature and less broad of a base between people interested in this hobby and those with the technical skills and moral ambiguity to both break the encryption methods and have the desire to pirate. Where as every DRM structure that has been conceived has been cracked when attacked, there are numerous cases of software or types of content out there that is niche that haven't because they have never been concertedly attacked. We figure the types of pirates we are most concerned about will put in the most effort by probably hiring professionals to crack it, but we have to at least take this first step to determine what additional steps we can take, while making it as transparent and as little user-impact, as we can so that there literally aren't thieves profiting off of the hard work of our PAs. We don’t have delusions of this stopping piracy, we do have delusions that this will make it a little harder and take a little longer so as to help start curbing it versus the ease of just uploading zip files containing unprotected files. We might be completely off on this, and speculation into if we are 100% wrong or 100% right or somewhere in the middle is mostly useless as opposed to doing something and seeing the actual impact of it.

The conveniences and ease we are adding along with the features to make using Studio a better experience we hope will make it make less sense for those that bother downloading illegal content, thus hopefully lowering the demand a little. The encryption we have setup to make it harder to take content out of Studio in its original format, not stopping the use of pirated content at all, and we are trying to do it in a way that it has next to no impact on the actual usage of the content. So with that we hope to also start decreasing the supply. It’s the combination of the two that we think will have an overall positive impact for us, the PAs who are tired of seeing their content being blatantly stolen minutes after it is released, future PAs who decide to take the plunge into content creation, and hopefully the end users (mostly the convenience and ease for the end users).

Post edited by DAZ_Jon on
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Comments

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 677
    edited November 2015

    I will repost my comment from one of the other threads because I think it sums up my concerns nicely:

    One reason to be concencered about a Steam or subscription model is that the current approach (locally stored private key) should be easy to break. So what happens then? It's not hard to imagine DAZ considering heading down the online authorization path since that is the logical progression we have seen others take in the arms race with pirates. So even though DAZ has stated they have no intent to head down this path at this time (which I believe), the arms race they have elected to enter suggests it will come up in the future. This introduces a new risk that none of us have had to even consider before for our content. Moreso for businesses, which have fidicuary responsibilties. Unfortiuantely, the only way to mitigate this risk is to not use any content only available in encypted form.

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 5,260
    DAZ_Jon said:

    Hey all, in an effort to keep the other threads clean, all concerns with encryption, philosophical or theoretical thoughts, speculations (within reason that wouldn't normally be moderated), etc., are going here. Feel free to continue the discussion in a civil, professional, hopefully rational, manner here and not derail any of the other threads.

    Bless you! It has been a real trial trying to learn details of the beta with such a large percentage of the comments focusing on the encryption aspect of DAZ Connect. I'm happy to follow that conversation as well, but I'm so glad they will be in separate threads!

    Thank you, thank you, thank you!

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    edited November 2015

    mod edit to remove OT quote

     

     

    On topic pure speculation:

    I'm starting to suspect that the encryption addition (which really isn't a big deal by itself, though I think is still going to hurt Daz) is actually more a case of PAs demands rather than Daz trying to DRM the universe. The nature of the files we use and edit makes real DRM basically impossible, and I've still yet to see a single reason to make it worth adding, while witnessing many pages of upset customers demonstrating that it isn't worth it.

    Post edited by Chohole on
  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 517

     

     

     

    lx said:

    On topic pure speculation:

    I'm starting to suspect that the encryption addition (which really isn't a big deal by itself, though I think is still going to hurt Daz) is actually more a case of PAs demands rather than Daz trying to DRM the universe. The nature of the files we use and edit makes real DRM basically impossible, and I've still yet to see a single reason to make it worth adding, while witnessing many pages of upset customers demonstrating that it isn't worth it.

     

    We are aware that there are a number of ways to work around the system that would enable people to continue to illegally copy our content. What the encryption in Daz Connect serves is to increase the effort in that copying. Running through exporters, then importing and building the package correctly so it will work as well as purchased content will take far more effort than it does right now and there are a lot of little nuances that could catch someone off guard that could cause unexpected problems.

     

    Primarily however we have made it easier than ever to use purchased content which is what we think will help our fight against copyright infringement the most.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    edited November 2015
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    Primarily however we have made it easier than ever to use purchased content which is what we think will help our fight against copyright infringement the most.

    This is the single best method I've seen people using for combatting piracy. Completely agree. Seeing someone from Daz say they actually think that way removes a ton of fears about the company's direction, so thank you.

    Personally, the endless sales packages on the Daz Store certainly keep me broke and happy about being broke, so those are clearly working. There have been other threads that show that a lot of people want more variety available (generally in the male and clothing areas) which I think would also be helpful since those areas are fairly evenly catered for in most other areas of 3d/art, etc. For people seeking say a range of practical outfits for a story or whatever, current availability is actually kind of slim compared to pinup outfits. It's been improving the last few days which is fantastic, but more reasons for more people to use the store is never a bad thing. 

    That said, while I think the shop in Daz Studio is a good idea, it did feel clunky and lacked most of the information or sales banners that actually make me sit up and take notice on the web store. I'm guessing this is because it's brand new and you just want to get it working first, but right now I didn't enjoy using it and it didn't give me the information that I actually use to make a purchase. I get why it's a small subtab in the content area (and I really appreciate how uninvasive it is to workflow) but it also makes it really impractical when I actually do want to use it. Wouldn't it be better having its own pane where the 3D view is?

    Secondly this information might have been around before but I missed it, but I'm given to understand that managing Daz Connect purchases is now done via the Product section of the Content Library. Since I know it's just an A-Z right now, I never even thought to look there. I just saw things in Smart Content that were grey and clicked on them, which is fine for the purpose of less technical users, but many of us are looking for a clear and robust organisational system for our content. Many of these tools are in the program, but they're just not very well known about. My point here is that focusing efforts on explaining things and looking forward documentation in my mind at least would be much more helpful in Daz Connect taking off.

    When I started using Daz Studio, the beginner tutorials in the program (especially the interactive ones) and on the web manual were extremely helpful. However once I knew how to place a camera and why I needed to, there was nothing explaining the more complex elements that I was getting into, such as using the many other tools in the program or managing my store bought content. I feel that this is one of the big things that has led to so many managing their things in their own way that is now conflicting so badly. Categories are (mostly) really good right now, but many don't seem to know about them and the commands are a bit spread out in weird ways. If all new users were taught to use them off the bat, you'd have more people managing their content in the same way, making transitions like this much less painful. Or maybe that's overly optimistic. But more guides and documentation beyond beginner things, please.

    (Note: In case this seems off topic, it really isn't. These are the sorts of things that make me a. want to purchase more content, which helps anti-piracy, and b. I believe is sort of at the root of the encryption uproar [lack of understanding of the product.])

    Post edited by lx on
  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561

    Hey all, I updated the original post to address some of the original questions and hopefully clear up some of the speculation as well as give some insight into what we're trying to accomplish. Its late in the day so I might have gotten some of the details wrong, which I'm sure DAZ_Rawb will correct me on and I'll need to update to reflect it. Anyway, its a bit of a read, but in the spirit of trying to be as clear and transparent in regards to what we're doing and why we are doing it so it might make more sense to some. Obviously there are going to be those that still think its stupid or completely ineffective, and that debate you guys can have. We spent months debating this internally before deciding on a course, so a lot of thought and research went into what and why we are starting down this path, so most things that have been stated, every counter argument and counter-counter argument has been vocally and intensely discussed here.

  • MurgatroydMurgatroyd Posts: 1,104
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    Primarily however we have made it easier than ever to use purchased content which is what we think will help our fight against copyright infringement the most.

    Which could be done just fine without the encryption.

    I think what bugs me most is that while you're making it easier to use purchased content in Studio, this content will only ever be usable in or through Studio. No other program present or future will ever be able to use any of it except via Studio's export options.

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561
    lx said:

    That said, while I think the shop in Daz Studio is a good idea, it did feel clunky and lacked most of the information or sales banners that actually make me sit up and take notice on the web store. I'm guessing this is because it's brand new and you just want to get it working first, but right now I didn't enjoy using it and it didn't give me the information that I actually use to make a purchase. I get why it's a small subtab in the content area (and I really appreciate how uninvasive it is to workflow) but it also makes it really impractical when I actually do want to use it. Wouldn't it be better having its own pane where the 3D view is?

    Secondly this information might have been around before but I missed it, but I'm given to understand that managing Daz Connect purchases is now done via the Product section of the Content Library. Since I know it's just an A-Z right now, I never even thought to look there. I just saw things in Smart Content that were grey and clicked on them, which is fine for the purpose of less technical users, but many of us are looking for a clear and robust organisational system for our content. Many of these tools are in the program, but they're just not very well known about. My point here is that focusing efforts on explaining things and looking forward documentation in my mind at least would be much more helpful in Daz Connect taking off.

    When I started using Daz Studio, the beginner tutorials in the program (especially the interactive ones) and on the web manual were extremely helpful. However once I knew how to place a camera and why I needed to, there was nothing explaining the more complex elements that I was getting into, such as using the many other tools in the program or managing my store bought content. I feel that this is one of the big things that has led to so many managing their things in their own way that is now conflicting so badly. Categories are (mostly) really good right now, but many don't seem to know about them and the commands are a bit spread out in weird ways. If all new users were taught to use them off the bat, you'd have more people managing their content in the same way, making transitions like this much less painful. Or maybe that's overly optimistic. But more guides and documentation beyond beginner things, please.

    (Note: In case this seems off topic, it really isn't. These are the sorts of things that make me a. want to purchase more content, which helps anti-piracy, and b. I believe is sort of at the root of the encryption uproar [lack of understanding of the product.])

    Could you provide this feedback, and in regards to the in-app store (especially what information you felt was lacking) and organizing your own content, some more details on what you feel exactly is lacking or needs improving on in the official beta thread? 

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561
    argel1200 said:

    One reason to be concencered about a Steam or subscription model is that the current approach (locally stored private key) should be easy to break. So what happens then? It's not hard to imagine DAZ considering heading down the online authorization path since that is the logical progression we have seen others take in the arms race with pirates. So even though DAZ has stated they have no intent to head down this path at this time (which I believe), the arms race they have elected to enter suggests it will come up in the future. This introduces a new risk that none of us have had to even consider before for our content. Moreso for businesses, which have fidicuary responsibilties. Unfortiuantely, the only way to mitigate this risk is to not use any content only available in encypted form.

    Thats going down a slippery slope. Where as we have decided to enter the ring on trying to curb piracy, our primary concern in regards to encryption is making it as little impact and invisible to users as the ease and convenience and what that does for bringing new people into using 3D content out weighs pretty much any possible gain from curbing piracy. There isn't an arms race, and going too far down the path into making it actually painful for the 95% use case of our customers to use our software or content would be cutting off our nose to spite our face. The fear of doing large restrictive steps like "always-on" or other methods doesn't take into account that there are multiple dimensions that are at play, not just a single "win against pirates" criteria.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874

    I'll reinstall the beta and go through it and make some less essayed notes. 

    I feel like it's so rare to see official staff of a product addressing all these concerns and taking them seriously. For me at least this makes a huge difference.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    DAZ_Rawb said:
    there are a lot of little nuances that could catch someone off guard that could cause unexpected problems.

     

    And from someone who makes content (freebies with an idea of 'going pro' at sometime)...it's those little nuances that will bite you in the posterior.

    Essentially at that point, reimporting an export item you are at the same stage as if you modelled it from scratch.  There's no shortcuts for getting it right and no shortcuts to make it match the original.

  • argel1200argel1200 Posts: 677
    edited November 2015
    • All previously released content will always be available unencrypted. We know that its already out there, encrypting it now doesn't buy anything. Because of that, either in the public release or first patch we will be making it so that encryption of products during the install through Daz Connect is a per product thing. So content that is already unencrypted will stay that way once we get it working, even when installed through Daz Connect. Again, this might not be in the first release, but definitely the first patch release shortly after at the latest.

    Have you thought about not encrypting the base figures so that e.g. people opposed to the encrytion can still make use of at least M7 when he comes out?  More importantly, have you thought about giving PAs the option to  not require encryption? It would be interesting to see if encypted products can compete with unencrypted ones. I would be really impressed if you had the courage to do that.

    WIll the downloadable files be a compeltely manual process or will e.g. DIM be updated to download them for us (where the "installation" could just be copying the files to the "DAZ Connect" import folder)?

    Post edited by argel1200 on
  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited November 2015
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    Primarily however we have made it easier than ever to use purchased content which is what we think will help our fight against copyright infringement the most.

    Which could be done just fine without the encryption.

    I think what bugs me most is that while you're making it easier to use purchased content in Studio, this content will only ever be usable in or through Studio. No other program present or future will ever be able to use any of it except via Studio's export options.

    And what can use it now, in its native format?

    Poser can't without an IMPORTER...FBX/Collada are the route to a bunch of other programs, and those are exporters. The only thing that can use some of the content, natively, without an exporter is Carrara...and it's been said that current contet is available in a format that is usable.  Most other things need obj exports...

    Post edited by mjc1016 on
  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 2,637

    I've been thinking about this process for a while now; I'm one with a main render system that does not have internet connectivity. My access is dial-up, and I use a system running SuSE Linux as my email and web browsing system. My main render system does not have a serial interface, and, as I own two perfectly good external v.92 modems, I have no desire to play with some silly USB modem (if they even make one - not interested in looking).

    The point is, I've got both ZBrush and Copernic Desktop Search installed on this system - both generating a registration key based on system information, emailed to the vender, and a license key emailed back. The main point is that everything occurs within the product - no other utility involved.

    May I suggest adding an option to the bottom of the 'connect' menu to generate a DAZ Connect authentication request; this item could be greyed out if not needed, but if used should generate a copyable text string than can be pasted into some other application for portability (I use wordpad). Once this string is generated and copied to the connectable system, the user clicks on the 'contact us' link at the bottom of the standard DAZ page. This should bring up the current page with a fourth primary link - "request DAZ Connect key for offline system". Click that link, log in (if not already) and paste the generated string into the box. Hit 'submit' (or whatever). The new box-specific customer key could be emailed to the account email address or plugged into our list of serial numbers (or both). Back on the offline system we go to the plugin registration screen, scroll to the DAZ Connect registration, and paste the customer key in.

    A bit of a pain, but those of us with stand alone systems are used to this - and with a bit of work on the web side, the DAZ end could probably be completely automated.

  • DAZ_RawbDAZ_Rawb Posts: 517
    argel1200 said:
    • All previously released content will always be available unencrypted. We know that its already out there, encrypting it now doesn't buy anything. Because of that, either in the public release or first patch we will be making it so that encryption of products during the install through Daz Connect is a per product thing. So content that is already unencrypted will stay that way once we get it working, even when installed through Daz Connect. Again, this might not be in the first release, but definitely the first patch release shortly after at the latest.

    Have you thought about not encrypting the base figures so that e.g. people opposed to the encrytion can still make use of at least M7 when he comes out?  More importantly, have you thought about giving PAs the option to  not require encryption? It would be interesting to see if encypted products can compete with unencrypted ones. I would be really impressed if you had the courage to do that.

    WIll the downloadable files be a compeltely manual process or will e.g. DIM be updated to download them for us (where the "installation" could just be copying the files to the "DAZ Connect" import folder)?

    As far as Michael 7, I'm not in a position to announce if he is or isn't going to be available unencrypted or encrypted only. However, I do have some pretty good guesses as to which way it is going to go and I'm willing to make a bet with you. If it's available unencrypted then you buy a copy of M7 Pro, and if it's only encrypted I'll buy you a copy of M7 Pro.

    You up for that bet?

     

    The offline downloadable packages (as currently planned) will be available through the product library in your account. The reason for not having them in DIM is because we want to have DIM continue it's focus on downloading the unencrypted zip's so there isn't any confusion for users of software that don't have Daz Connect capability.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    DAZ_Rawb said:

    The offline downloadable packages (as currently planned) will be available through the product library in your account. The reason for not having them in DIM is because we want to have DIM continue it's focus on downloading the unencrypted zip's so there isn't any confusion for users of software that don't have Daz Connect capability.

    That seems to solve many things. Am I understanding that as we can buy the new encrypt only content when it finally turns up from the store and never have to go near Smart Connect or connect the program if we don't want to?

    Also regarding updates for offline users, the live update idea is nice I guess but they tend not to happen very often, so could there be a way to choose to be notified when content in your product library gets an update, since we won't be using DIM anymore for those things (that's how I currently see updates and it works just fine.)

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561
    edited November 2015
    argel1200 said:
    • All previously released content will always be available unencrypted. We know that its already out there, encrypting it now doesn't buy anything. Because of that, either in the public release or first patch we will be making it so that encryption of products during the install through Daz Connect is a per product thing. So content that is already unencrypted will stay that way once we get it working, even when installed through Daz Connect. Again, this might not be in the first release, but definitely the first patch release shortly after at the latest.

    Have you thought about not encrypting the base figures so that e.g. people opposed to the encrytion can still make use of at least M7 when he comes out?  More importantly, have you thought about giving PAs the option to  not require encryption? It would be interesting to see if encypted products can compete with unencrypted ones. I would be really impressed if you had the courage to do that.

    The question isn't quite right. M7 is a shape built on G3M. There is discussion and a desire to have G3M, and any potential future base figures, always unencrypted because the more people that use them and build content for, the better. The biggest differentiator between successful figures and flops is the content support, so doing things that discourage content support in anyway could be considered counter to seeing that figure succeed. Most things are built for G3F, not V7. That being said, shapes on it that take a lot of time and effort on top of it that either is released by Daz or PAs would be more likely candidates for encryption only release when that option is available.

    As for G3M and M7 being encrypted only, I can't say much other than you'll have to wait and see. :)

    Post edited by DAZ_Jon on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,874

    I might be missing something here, but aren't G3F (and presumably G3M?) free? That'd make encrypting them completely pointless. On the other hand, I'd expect that M7 (and V7) would be the #1 items for piracy right now. Only semi related, but I hate installing the essential packages, since I don't use most of it. Standalones of G3F G3M style basic figures would be nice.

    ps. Just read the updated first post. It's really good, and covers most of my questions on the topic. To be honest, I had no idea that pirate sites reselling cc fraud bought Daz content even existed. There can't be a big market there, nor many shopping there that would be willing to have bought the content originally either (just speculation, not using it as a reason for any sort of change.)

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561
    lx said:

    I might be missing something here, but aren't G3F (and presumably G3M?) free? That'd make encrypting them completely pointless. On the other hand, I'd expect that M7 (and V7) would be the #1 items for piracy right now. Only semi related, but I hate installing the essential packages, since I don't use most of it. Standalones of G3F G3M style basic figures would be nice.

    ps. Just read the updated first post. It's really good, and covers most of my questions on the topic. To be honest, I had no idea that pirate sites reselling cc fraud bought Daz content even existed. There can't be a big market there, nor many shopping there that would be willing to have bought the content originally either (just speculation, not using it as a reason for any sort of change.)

    Its a big enough market that there are actually several sites that do this.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    DAZ_Jon said:
    lx said:

    I might be missing something here, but aren't G3F (and presumably G3M?) free? That'd make encrypting them completely pointless. On the other hand, I'd expect that M7 (and V7) would be the #1 items for piracy right now. Only semi related, but I hate installing the essential packages, since I don't use most of it. Standalones of G3F G3M style basic figures would be nice.

    ps. Just read the updated first post. It's really good, and covers most of my questions on the topic. To be honest, I had no idea that pirate sites reselling cc fraud bought Daz content even existed. There can't be a big market there, nor many shopping there that would be willing to have bought the content originally either (just speculation, not using it as a reason for any sort of change.)

    Its a big enough market that there are actually several sites that do this.

    That's interesting. I get why it'd be a bad idea for you to release any numbers comparing pirated content and official sales, but I'm super curious. It's good to see that Daz isn't just blindly implementing things as was originally thought though.

    Am I right that G3M (the base with the eh basic 3dl skin and only a few morphs) is going to be free? (and thus unencrypted) Any chance of a G3M only pack that doesn't require a massive Essentials pack for those that don't want the extra stuff?

  • DAZ_JonDAZ_Jon Posts: 561
    lx said:
    DAZ_Jon said:
    lx said:

    I might be missing something here, but aren't G3F (and presumably G3M?) free? That'd make encrypting them completely pointless. On the other hand, I'd expect that M7 (and V7) would be the #1 items for piracy right now. Only semi related, but I hate installing the essential packages, since I don't use most of it. Standalones of G3F G3M style basic figures would be nice.

    ps. Just read the updated first post. It's really good, and covers most of my questions on the topic. To be honest, I had no idea that pirate sites reselling cc fraud bought Daz content even existed. There can't be a big market there, nor many shopping there that would be willing to have bought the content originally either (just speculation, not using it as a reason for any sort of change.)

    Its a big enough market that there are actually several sites that do this.

    That's interesting. I get why it'd be a bad idea for you to release any numbers comparing pirated content and official sales, but I'm super curious. It's good to see that Daz isn't just blindly implementing things as was originally thought though.

    Am I right that G3M (the base with the eh basic 3dl skin and only a few morphs) is going to be free? (and thus unencrypted) Any chance of a G3M only pack that doesn't require a massive Essentials pack for those that don't want the extra stuff?

    Those questions, as any questions regarding G3M and M7, marketing would pretty much stab me over for letting any information out. :)

  • th3Digitth3Digit Posts: 17,341

    It has been mentioned by some who create plugins for Carrara over in our forum who use the SDK the encrytion would not be hard to implement in it.

    So is snyone from DAZ working on this and getting Genesis 3 working in it?

     Since G3F clothes load OK and fuctionable there cannot be too much wrong that is causing the outright crash.

    not having a log file prevents us seeing just what does it.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    edited November 2015
    DAZ_Jon said:
    lx said:
    DAZ_Jon said:
    lx said:

    I might be missing something here, but aren't G3F (and presumably G3M?) free? That'd make encrypting them completely pointless. On the other hand, I'd expect that M7 (and V7) would be the #1 items for piracy right now. Only semi related, but I hate installing the essential packages, since I don't use most of it. Standalones of G3F G3M style basic figures would be nice.

    ps. Just read the updated first post. It's really good, and covers most of my questions on the topic. To be honest, I had no idea that pirate sites reselling cc fraud bought Daz content even existed. There can't be a big market there, nor many shopping there that would be willing to have bought the content originally either (just speculation, not using it as a reason for any sort of change.)

    Its a big enough market that there are actually several sites that do this.

    That's interesting. I get why it'd be a bad idea for you to release any numbers comparing pirated content and official sales, but I'm super curious. It's good to see that Daz isn't just blindly implementing things as was originally thought though.

    Am I right that G3M (the base with the eh basic 3dl skin and only a few morphs) is going to be free? (and thus unencrypted) Any chance of a G3M only pack that doesn't require a massive Essentials pack for those that don't want the extra stuff?

    Those questions, as any questions regarding G3M and M7, marketing would pretty much stab me over for letting any information out. :)

    It'd be worth it! (for me) But seriously, I understand that. Mostly I just wanted to raise the issue that Essentials is kinda bloaty for non-beginners but we -have- to have the base Genesis figures installed...

    Edit: I'm also really interested in the future of Carrera regarding it being up to date with Daz products and how it'll work with the new content system and encryption. The amount of times I've had that in my shopping cart only to veer away due to doubts of it being maintained are ridiculous.

    Post edited by lx on
  • th3Digitth3Digit Posts: 17,341
    edited November 2015

    I stand corrected, not all clothing is functional and the medieval princess outfit crashes carrara too

     

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    Post edited by th3Digit on
  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 2,927

    Thanks for the info in the first post. I have concerns over drm as it mostly impacts on paying customers more than the pirates but I will wait and see where this leads before deciding what I will do with my purchasing dollars.

     

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    edited November 2015

    The only people that think wholescale DRM is okay are either people trying to take advantage of others, or those that don't understand its implications or effects.

    (Note: I do not see Daz's encryption as DRM at all. I'm talking about crap like 100% encrypted files that you can only install to 5 computers ever, that companies can take back when they want, or single player games that require constant smooth internet connections to be able to play. These things all hurt customer bases and the companies implementing them.)

    The problem was that most of the information in the OP post wasn't available when the original announcements were made, and everyone got upset over little information and testing and mostly speculation. Now that we clearly know how it works and where the limitations are and aren't, I personally feel a lot more relieved about it. There appear to be many concerns over the potential of it becoming a full on DRM in the future, however I would say that if they want to do it in the future, they'll do it regardless of the new encryption.

    Carrera concerns still seem valid, and people are still hoping for some answers on the future of that program and these changes.

    A subscription model seems wildly infeasible without complete DRM which would make textures innaccessible, and/or requiring true cloud based all models and textures being stored online at all times. It would be completely impractical. Also, Studio Pro used to cost money, but now it doesn't, and Daz found they had increased revenue because of it. They have payments via PC+ coming in that people are happy to pay, too. What purpose would a subscription model even serve?

    Post edited by lx on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 6,914

    I'm happy to vent here; I like venting.

    Keeping it on topic though...

    lx said:

    The only people that think wholescale DRM is okay are either people trying to take advantage of others, or those that don't understand its implications or effects.

    (Note: I do not see Daz's encryption as DRM at all. I'm talking about crap like 100% encrypted files that you can only install to 5 computers ever, that companies can take back when they want, or single player games that require constant smooth internet connections to be able to play. These things all hurt customer bases and the companies implementing them.)

    The problem was that most of the information in the OP post wasn't available when the original announcements were made, and everyone got upset over little information and testing and mostly speculation. Now that we clearly know how it works and where the limitations are and aren't, I think that most people are okay with it, only worried that it'll become proper DRM in the future (which is a pointless thing to worry about; this encryption doesn't do anything to change that, and Daz files already don't natively work in any other programs really.)

    Carrera concerns still seem valid, and people are still hoping for some answers on the future of that program and these changes.

    A subscription model seems wildly infeasible without complete DRM which would make textures innaccessible, and/or requiring true cloud based all models and textures being stored online at all times. It would be completely impractical. Also, Studio Pro used to cost money, but now it doesn't, and Daz found they had increased revenue because of it. They have payments via PC+ coming in that people are happy to pay, too. What purpose would a subscription model even serve?

    I too don't consider it in the same light as other DRM content. I've been concerned and remain concerned that we don't know where this will lead. and like @Pendraia with who's post above I agree with, I will continue to watch. As an aside, my spending has slowed quite dramatically, since this started. I wonder if it has affected others the same. To some extent, the new FAQ, and this first post here are encouraging and if there from the start, might have calmed me down somewhat - and maybe others too.

  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    edited November 2015
    nicstt said:

    I'm happy to vent here; I like venting.

    Keeping it on topic though...

    lx said:

    The only people that think wholescale DRM is okay are either people trying to take advantage of others, or those that don't understand its implications or effects.

    (Note: I do not see Daz's encryption as DRM at all. I'm talking about crap like 100% encrypted files that you can only install to 5 computers ever, that companies can take back when they want, or single player games that require constant smooth internet connections to be able to play. These things all hurt customer bases and the companies implementing them.)

    The problem was that most of the information in the OP post wasn't available when the original announcements were made, and everyone got upset over little information and testing and mostly speculation. Now that we clearly know how it works and where the limitations are and aren't, I think that most people are okay with it, only worried that it'll become proper DRM in the future (which is a pointless thing to worry about; this encryption doesn't do anything to change that, and Daz files already don't natively work in any other programs really.)

    Carrera concerns still seem valid, and people are still hoping for some answers on the future of that program and these changes.

    A subscription model seems wildly infeasible without complete DRM which would make textures innaccessible, and/or requiring true cloud based all models and textures being stored online at all times. It would be completely impractical. Also, Studio Pro used to cost money, but now it doesn't, and Daz found they had increased revenue because of it. They have payments via PC+ coming in that people are happy to pay, too. What purpose would a subscription model even serve?

    I too don't consider it in the same light as other DRM content. I've been concerned and remain concerned that we don't know where this will lead. and like @Pendraia with who's post above I agree with, I will continue to watch. As an aside, my spending has slowed quite dramatically, since this started. I wonder if it has affected others the same. To some extent, the new FAQ, and this first post here are encouraging and if there from the start, might have calmed me down somewhat - and maybe others too.

    Speaking only for myself, I would say that the motives and goals that have been outlined by Daz in this thread are good enough for me to give them a fair chance. I'm honestly surprised they've said as much as they have, which is refreshing comparing to many other companies. What they say makes sense, is customer focused, and is reasonable. 

    A few days ago I agree the entire thing looked suspicious, and when it was announced and before any testing, downright creditcard-hidingly bad. But since then I've downloaded and tested the beta, looked at what the encryption will actually stop customers from legitimately doing (not much unless you're a Carrera user or have some sort of need to dig into downloaded files yet are unable to make your own versions to do the same thing) and read several in depth posts from the staff (or whatever these DAZ_people are.)

    Based on all that, it just doesn't make sense for them to be planning some sort of majestic screw over. Sure, they might at some point well down the road, but not in 4.9, and they can still do this super secret screw over regardless of whether 4.9 encryption exists or not. Once you look at the details of how the encryption actually works, how the server connections work, and how it affects the files, there's really no reason to worry. If the required files of an item all got packaged into one encrypted file I would be worried, but that is not the case.

    It's not like anything is going to change right now anyway, and in case of some sort of doomsday I have the 4.8 installer and all of my DIM content backed up, and while I don't know enough about DSF/DUF to create perfect replica files that others would ever want, I do know how to get the bits I actually use for creating art for myself in a form that I can continue to use on a solely personal basis.

    As someone said earlier, I would like to see PAs be given the option of taking the encryption route or not on an individual basis, but I don't know the details of their relations so won't speculate on that. Let the PAs that want it demand it since they have better lines of communication. If a customer is worried that they'll encode all content despite promising not to and there being no reason to, it makes more sense to buy more now before they can do so, not buy less. Personally I'll just continue to buy the things I think are good and that I tell myself I'll find a use for someday.

    That does not however mean I think 4.9 is release worthy. There are multiple bugs that stop me from doing even the most basic organisation and rendering, and the new features are super clunky in many ways. However, many concerns people have had with the new system have been promised to be implemented, and hopefully the bugs will be fixed (if not, refuse to upgrade and complain a lot [politely] until they are.) I think that the DAZ_whatevers have made plenty of effort to proceed in good faith. It's not like it's going to cost me anything to do so. Accusing them of lying just makes the person doing so look irrational at this point. When things become Connect-only, then certainly, it'll be time to reevaluate.

     

    Post edited by lx on
  • acanthisacanthis Posts: 604
    edited January 2016
    lx said:

    Now that we clearly know how it works and where the limitations are and aren't, I think that most people are okay with it,

    .

    Post edited by acanthis on
  • lxlx Posts: 2,874
    acanthis said:
    lx said:

    Now that we clearly know how it works and where the limitations are and aren't, I think that most people are okay with it,

    With the greatest of respect, you cannot and should not speak for "most people". You can speak for yourself. You can speak for those that you personally know and who are happy for you to express their views. You do not speak for me.

    I am not "okay" with it.

    My apologies, I went to great lengths to edit in "personally" into almost every sentence, but I clearly missed bits. I'll edit it.

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