Making of my next scene. How I work with bryce

c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
edited December 1969 in Bryce Discussion

Hello everyone!

I want to know if you will be interested in a "making of" of my next scene. I want to share it with you to let you see how I work with Bryce. This will not be a tutorial but a step by step that show you how I'm making my way on a project.

So, this will be a tropical sea scene like the photos above.

Just tell me.

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Comments

  • Tim82Tim82 Posts: 691
    edited December 1969

    I think this would be very interesting to see :)

  • srieschsriesch Posts: 4,028
    edited December 1969

    I am curious. I see how I THINK you might do it... but you might have some easier or better methods I could learn from. And I'm interested to see the result too... interestingly you seem to occasionally pick some of the same subjects I've wanted to try but never gotten around to doing yet (and do them very well!)

  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited December 1969

    Sean: thank you! My methods will be simple here, nothing hard to understand and to demonstrate. Only things you can replicate easily.

    I'll first start picking ideas with different pictures on the Web. So see you tomorrow for the first step.

    Cheers from France!

  • Fencepost52Fencepost52 Posts: 471
    edited December 1969

    I'm interested. Thanks for sharing with us!

  • HoroHoro Posts: 6,687
    edited December 1969

    @c-ram - I'm really looking forward to this. That's a great idea and I'm sure there will be a lot to learn from you.

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 3,125
    edited December 1969

    Super! I am certain it will be fascinating to see how you put one of your amazing scenes together. It would good also if you could include the size of the scene files you are working with as part of your description? And an idea of roughly how much time it takes to do certain things?

  • vivienvivien Posts: 184
    edited December 1969

    Yes please, I'm working on a photo from Pipi Island at the moment, and I'm having so much problem. I would love to see your process.

  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited March 2015

    @Horo : I'm glad to see that this thread will be forward by you and all the great artists in our favourite forum.

    @David : Ah yes, at each part of my process I'll give the file size and the memory usage (using L.A.A of course). I'll send the working time too. There's a lot to do here and I've got to model a thaï boat for the final render so, I'm going to use Wings3d for this.

    @Vivien : Phi phi Island are a good source of inspiration!

    Post edited by c-ram on
  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 3,125
    edited December 1969

    c-ram said:

    @David : Ah yes, at each part of my process I'll give the file size and the memory usage (using L.A.A of course). I'll send the working time too. There's a lot to do here and I've got to model a thaï boat for the final render so, I'm going to use Wings3d for this.

    Thanks you, this will offer many insights for everyone I hope, myself included.

    Modo has lured me away from Wings3d, though I have as you know spend many happy hours in the program, though whatever I do is time consuming for me. I am not the fastest. Here's a little something I modeled the other day, it took about an hour, even though it is really simple. there are always unexpected problems to solve.

    Old_socket.jpg
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  • adbcadbc Posts: 959
    edited December 1969

    @c-ram : always interested in learning something
    Your scenes are always so natural, looking like photo's and I always wondered
    how you do it.

  • mermaid010mermaid010 Posts: 2,541
    edited December 1969

    Wow that's great C-ram, your renders are magnificent and very, very inspiring. Looking forward to your explanations. :-)

  • MelanieLMelanieL Posts: 4,633
    edited December 1969

    I'm very interested. I've just started out in Bryce and every bit of information helps :)

  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited March 2015

    To everyone : I'm really proud to lead you to this project and happy to see that you're all looking forward on this thread.

    So, here we start!

    First step : we need to pick up some good render references and some ideas from various artists. We're not going to reproduce their work, that’s not the goal, only take inspiration in their work.

    I've look many pictures and select four of them.

    The first one is from a well known member in this forum and one of the best bryce landscaper artist : slepalex

    http://slepalex.deviantart.com/art/Thai-motif-503881022

    I really like his result here.

    The second one is from Alen Vejzavic and this picture have rank first in a cornucopia 3d challenge :

    http://vejza.deviantart.com/art/Subtropic-488982451

    The third one is from Sylvain Chevalier, a solid vue artist :

    http://20syl44.deviantart.com/art/Thai-467468244


    And the fourth one is from Luc Bianco who work with terragen :

    baf5fffa994080f690413132dc3a5985~lucb-bianco_ter2012_2.jpg
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    Post edited by c-ram on
  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited March 2015

    And First result :

    I start the scene by working on the atmosphere. Very simple here because it's based on a David cloudscape with a simple HDRI blue sky.

    I've then generate tree terrains (res. 512). One for the beach, and the two others for the background island. Material from pro materials.

    A simple water plane with a pro material too. About to hours to setup and 14 minutes to render in normal mode.

    I'm unhappy with the water result.. I need a good looking sea with foam and little waves.. I think I'm going to employ popgriffon technic for this :

    http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=3437&mode=search

    See you tomorrow for the next step and thanks for passing by.

    island_1.jpg
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    Post edited by c-ram on
  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 3,125
    edited December 1969

    c-ram said:
    And First result :

    I start the scene by working on the atmosphere. Very simple here because it's based on a David cloudscape with a simple HDRI blue sky.

    I've then generate tree terrains (res. 512). One for the beach, and the two others for the background island. Material from pro materials.

    A simple water plane with a pro material too. About to hours to setup and 14 minutes to render in normal mode.

    I'm unhappy with the water result.. I need a good looking sea with foam and little waves.. I think I'm going to employ popgriffon technic for this :

    http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=3437&mode=search

    See you tomorrow for the next step and thanks for passing by.

    I see what you mean about the water. The bump effect is too strong for this angle of camera, the vertical lines are a clue to that the angle of the simulated geometry has exceeded the viewing angle and is clipping. Dropping the bump value might help mitigate this problem. You could also experiment with "reflection correction" but in this case if the bump is too strong what you will get from switching that on is "holes" or flat pools where the rays travel through to the underside of the plain. But as you say, Popgriffons wave approach is very good, yes much better than relying on bump.

    But yes a good start clearly, interesting that you started with the atmosphere. I look forwards eagerly to seeing the next iteration!

  • Fencepost52Fencepost52 Posts: 471
    edited December 1969

    Nice! This is a great thread! Looking forward to the scene development and really interested in the popgriffon sea/foam technique (thanks for the link!)

    Art

  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited December 1969

    @David : Yes, difficult to provide a good and closed sea effect with bryce using a single plane.. I've try different seas material and reflection correction but it doesn't convince me more.. So, I'm going to employ Popgriffons method using mordors fractal in the terrain editor and then export the results in photoshop to work on a bigger resolution. After that, I'm going to reload the picture in the terrain editor on a 4096 res. one. So, lots of work in the evening when I get back from job.

    Oh, and yes, I always start my scene by working basically on the atmosphere and modify it depending on how the process is progressing.

    @Art : You're welcome. You can find popgriffons sea material to download at bryce5.com.

  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited December 1969

    Second step :

    I've work with mordors fractal in the terrain editor and export the result as a picture to a tiff format. For that, I've use planetary resolution which give me a 4096*4096 16 bits heightmap.

    I load it in photoshop and upscale my working area so that I can replicate my heightmap three times horizontally and vertically (12288*12288 pix now). I close photoshop after saving the picture and getting back to bryce, I use picture filter to reload the heightmap to the 4096 resolution terrain.

    And hit render button to see the result. A lot of improvement, yes! I then go to the Dte to select popgriffon ocean texture for the terrain. I'll have to change the color of his texture because this is a little bit too dark, it has got a metallic effect and I can't see the foam effect. I'll look at this problem later.

    Well, I'm happy with Davids cloudscape but.. there's some empty area on both side of this big clouds, I'm going to employ another cloudscape to fill them.

    The file size is about 71 mb and I have work 2 hours on the project. Rendered with T.A mode 16 rays per pixel with 3 rays depth, scattering correction and boost light on.

    So, here's the end of this second session and I hope you find this interesting.

    You can see the results in the screenshot above.

    island_2.jpg
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    Screen_captur_1.jpg
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    screen_captur_2.jpg
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  • HansmarHansmar Posts: 1,550
    edited December 1969

    Wow, C-ram, that is a very great thread! Keep it going and we will keep following you!
    The water indeed looks much better. But it is a lot of work, I think.

  • mermaid010mermaid010 Posts: 2,541
    edited December 1969

    Wow- very nice C-ram thanks for sharing. I'm going to play along. :-)

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 3,125
    edited December 1969

    c-ram said:
    Second step :

    I've work with mordors fractal in the terrain editor and export the result as a picture to a tiff format. For that, I've use planetary resolution which give me a 4096*4096 16 bits heightmap.

    I load it in photoshop and upscale my working area so that I can replicate my heightmap three times horizontally and vertically (12288*12288 pix now). I close photoshop after saving the picture and getting back to bryce, I use picture filter to reload the heightmap to the 4096 resolution terrain.

    And hit render button to see the result. A lot of improvement, yes! I then go to the Dte to select popgriffon ocean texture for the terrain. I'll have to change the color of his texture because this is a little bit too dark, it has got a metallic effect and I can't see the foam effect. I'll look at this problem later.

    Well, I'm happy with Davids cloudscape but.. there's some empty area on both side of this big clouds, I'm going to employ another cloudscape to fill them.

    The file size is about 71 mb and I have work 2 hours on the project. Rendered with T.A mode 16 rays per pixel with 3 rays depth, scattering correction and boost light on.

    So, here's the end of this second session and I hope you find this interesting.

    You can see the results in the screenshot above.

    The water looks much better now yes! The use of TA rendering for such a scene is an interesting choice, I would not have attempted that with so much cloud in the sky, but gone instead for low level direct IBL excluding the volume slab plus bright Bryce sun. I'd be curious to know why you have chosen TA when I suspect it comes with quite a high penalty in terms of render time.

  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited December 1969

    @David : You're right, I could exclude cloudscapes to be lit by IBL but I've not tested it in this scene yet.. Maybe I'll gain substantial or significant render time, but, as you know from me, the level of details in my renders are increasing the computation. Also, I've already think at all the steps for this picture and I'm going to add a lot and lot of details (a foreground beach with dead palm leaves debris and foam, tropical vegetation, a boat..), so to light up all this objects, I need T.A to enhance the natural side of my work

  • SlepalexSlepalex Posts: 719
    edited December 1969

    Hi, Mark! Very good initiative.
    Using "mordors fractal" and repeat the height map in Photoshop - this is the correct decision! I also apply it. Using the

    4096 permit for terrains - this incorrect decision!
    You use the fact that you have a powerful computer and a lot of RAM. But do you use computer resources is not rational!
    For such a simple scene file size 71 MB - a lot and beyond rational decision.
    I also did a similar scene once
    http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=5386
    What do you think, what is the size of the file in this scene? The answer is: 2.25 MB.
    The fact that your camera sees in the foreground only a very small portion of the terrain with resolution of 4096 bits. This is

    equivalent to what to put the terrain into the foreground with resolution of 512 * 512 bits (Terrain 1). On the 2nd location

    you need to put the terrain 2 times larger in size and of the same height. The repetition rate of height map of Terrain 2

    should be increased by 2 times. Resolution of Terrain 2 can be left 512 * 512, or at least to increase up to 1024 * 1024.
    Water surface of the third plan (Terrain 3) should be more increased 2-fold in X and Z. The repetition rate of height map in

    Terrain 3 must also increase by 2 times (although you can leave as a Terrain 2). Resolution is also possible to leave 1024 *

    1024, because at a great distance discreteness of height map is almost invisible.
    At the height of Y = 0 I have a Plane 1 (ground), at the height of Y = 0,50 - Plane 2 (Water) with the texture waves.
    Here's a screenshot of my scene (top view) and a height map of Terrain 1 and 2.


    ___

    In the next post I'll tell you:
    1. Why is this scene does not need to apply TA.
    2. Why do not need to use 2 plates Slab.
    3. Show the material with foam waves.

    Terrain_2.jpg
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    Terrain_1.jpg
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    top_view.jpg
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  • Fencepost52Fencepost52 Posts: 471
    edited December 1969

    @Slepalex: Thanks for your input, as well. I want to make sure I'm understanding your description correctly. The screenshot below is the way I'm understanding things and I also have a couple of questions.

    Thanks, Art

    SlepalexDescription.jpg
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  • SlepalexSlepalex Posts: 719
    edited December 1969

    Oh! I see that David had outline some of the problems, as I painstakingly long time to translate my message into English. :)
    And So.
    1. Render with TA to some extent simulates the transport of radiation (Radiosity) or secondary bounce rays from adjacent objects. From a physical point of view it seems to be correct. However! This is true for cases where objects are located in close proximity to each other. This may be a still life, interior or a landscape, when close-up shows a plurality of plants in close proximity to each other. In Bryce reflected light from objects too strongly influenced by its rich color. As a result, neighboring objects too much paint color of the reflecting object. And it can not be adjusted!
    In the global landscape influence of neighboring mountains, hills (etc.) on each other not so great. The main influence on the lighting and scene painting has sky and clouds. As a consequence, the whole scene is painted in blue sky and white balance is disturbed. Furthermore, it is impossible to adjust the brightness of the scene. Therefore, the whole scene is heavily overexposed and need to change the value of the diffuse scattering in many materials.
    But that's not all!
    The combination of TA and volumetric materials is the murder for render time. In addition, rendering 16 rpp gives a poor quality image, as may appear "hot" or "cold" pixels.
    If you want to use high resolution HDRI as a background of the sky, it is also the wrong decision, although it is easier to render TA. Map HDRI high resolution will give you an additional 32 MB.
    The best solution for your project is to use the Sphere Dome Light with some additional light sources, including sunlight. Naturally, you should exclude the volumetric clouds from all sources of light.

    PS. If you want to add a beach with a variety of objects to the foreground, then the more you need to optimize the size of the file, as I pointed out above.

  • SlepalexSlepalex Posts: 719
    edited December 1969

    @Slepalex: Thanks for your input, as well. I want to make sure I'm understanding your description correctly. The screenshot below is the way I'm understanding things and I also have a couple of questions.

    Thanks, Art

    fencepost52, chances are you're all properly understood. Please ask your questions as text. My online translator can not read the format JPG. :)
    Terrain 1, 2 and 3 is Bryce terrains for the water surface (for waves). Mountain is Bryce terrain for the mountains (islands). Plane 1 (Y = 0) - default plane (this can be left in gray). Plane 2 (Water) Y = 0,50 - is duplicate of Plane 1 with material of water.

    top_view2.jpg
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  • Fencepost52Fencepost52 Posts: 471
    edited December 1969

    slepalex said:
    fencepost52, chances are you're all properly understood. Please ask your questions as text. My online translator can not read the format JPG. :)
    Terrain 1, 2 and 3 is Bryce terrains for the water surface (for waves). Mountain is Bryce terrain for the mountains (islands). Plane 1 (Y = 0) - default plane (this can be left in gray). Plane 2 (Water) Y = 0,50 - is duplicate of Plane 1 with material of water.

    Ahh, good point about the questions in text. My bad! I'll remember that next time. :) I think you've answered my questions. Thanks!

  • c-ramc-ram Posts: 372
    edited December 1969

    @ Hansmar : Thank you! Not a lot of work for the moment but a lot of work to come for sure!


    @ Mermaid : You're welcome. Nice to read that it's inspiring for you.


    @Alex : Hi! thank you my friend. Glad to see you here!

    I see what you mean and I take your remark positively when you whrite that I don't use minimalists ressources with my computers. You're right, I could have use only 512*512 terrain resolution for the foreground but at first edge, that's not what I've decide : the final picture will be rendered at 4000 pixels wide and trust me, at this high size, you can sometime see default with low/mid resolution terrains that are closed or far from the camera.

    I always applause when you publish a new image on your deviant or here at DAZ and I'm always flabbergasted to see how you manage your scene and preverve memory usage. So what can we say : each one has its own approch with bryce depending on what/how he have learn with the software and not only how fast his computer is running or how many memory he has got in his banks.

    Assuming too, I've got most of my saved files about 700/900mb due to several use of x-frog plants.

    Looking forward for your great explanation about T.A, slabs and the foam waves.

    Cheers!

  • HoroHoro Posts: 6,687
    edited December 1969

    I'm following this thread eagerly.

  • David BrinnenDavid Brinnen Posts: 3,125
    edited December 1969

    c-ram said:
    I've got most of my saved files about 700/900mb due to several use of x-frog plants.

    This I can believe, your scenes are so rich with detail and complexity. I do not usually let my scenes grow beyond 200/250mb and at that point try to find way to break the scene into layers that can be rendered independently and then recombined. Also due to large assets causing considerable slowdown on my system for a big project I often work on elements and then when I am happy with them for the time being swap them out for lower poly placeholders and store the original in a separate file. So for large terrains I would set up the materials at 4096 x 4096 and then when that was done, swap it out for a 512x512 and work on say... the lighting next. Same for volume clouds, set them up and then switch them off. This is a bit of a faff, but I find it easier to do that than manage huge scenes. You clearly have more patience!

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