new rigging tool for simple prop (is there more easy way?)

kitakoredaz · August 2012

Is there more easy way to make simple rigged figure(prop) on daz studio?

it means not human, or doll animals with weight, just prop which parts can move by rigs.

Now I can make simple figure by CCT, but it needs assigne face group
then use Figure set up tool, then adjust bone by joint editor, then need triax weight map,,

If I want to send obj consits of some groups from Hexagon, and want to set rig,
First, I need to weld them as one obj.

then need to assign every poligon as face groups again.
though I can use material groups for assigne face group,,

(if I did not assigne face groups, I should make many bones manually,, terrible!!)

I just want to move parts of prop (obj) with rig(bone) in daz studio.
it is better just assign face group automatically by "group name" and
follow the movements and rotation, which assined to rigs.

(of course need not buldge maps ,, graduation weight,, and ,, riggidity )

if think about machine eg robot arm, or drill prop, they need not complex surface move at all.)

so I suggest the easy rigging utillity or plug-in by object groups.

you can connect other obj(new primitive or imported obj) with new rig ,(just apply by one click new rig)too.

then you can move them as one obj,

it seems so easy to make prop animation when you want to need movements,,

(it is my test work by Geekatplay , so thaks kind video tutoriall ^^!! I hope to rig this robot someday,,)
http://www.geekatplay.com/tutorials/hexagon/thirdteen/

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

Well, you need groups or (for TriAx rigging) to assign bones in order for DS to know which bits should move - it can't look at a bare mesh and deduce which bits should be moving parts. If you make each part a separate item in Hexagon those should load as groups in DS. Now, if you don't want anything to bend it would be simplest not to use TriAx at all - use the legacy Parametric mode instead (option at top of pane) and when you've created your figure select all the bones, go to the Parameters pane and turn off the Bend button. Then you just need to adjust the end points and you are done.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

@Richard

I mistook when export obj because I used hexagon bridge or weled option.
.
by your advice, Now I can send a obj (which has some parts and grouped one in hexagon) with assignments face grooup by parts name of obj to d|s4 pro . then used figure set up tool with Parametric option. and test movements.
.
but it is something different what I hope, I want to just connect them by rig.
(it is as if parented objects, but when I translate the parts of children node,
other node can move with, and I want to save them as one prop,,(of figure))

and I can not understand how to adjust rig,,

( old joint editor ? appear. I change tool, then buck joint editor, it turend rig system which I used to about triax figure,,
sometimes change, sometimes not,,)
.
so I test with more simple case.

1. I made cube, cylinder(joint parts), sphere, in hexagon. then named them, "cube" , "joint", "sphere"
.
2. I grouped them as one name "3obj" . then export as wavefront object , then import the file in d|s 4 pro (4,0,3 64bit)
.
3 now the "3obj" (one object) face groups are assigned by their parts name in hexagon.(cube, joint, sphere)
.
4 Figure setup tool, with Parametric(legasy) option, I load geometry, then parented 3rigs and change XYZ order.

5 click create (checkrig1.jpg)

6 I adjust rig point, then check move(rotation), I hope rotate each "face parts" 3-ways.and connect them by rig.
if I rotate (twist) the cube bone (parets bone), I hope 3 parts rotate, ,, not hope parts of cube surface twist .

(checkrig2.jpg)
.
where I missed? I try to adjust rig, but I can not rotate whole cube,, .just twist parts of cube.

and is there any document about how to rig with Parametric(legasy) option?

I can not understand what they means,,.(green and red crossed square,,etc)

kitakoredaz · August 2012

so,, what is this tool? I can not understand these color map looks like weight maps,,

I set joint editor tool. is this old tool for parametric figure? and sometimes they disappear.

(in this pic, I try to move sphere and rig(sylinder), with sylinder bone lotate,
but if I twist (lotation X), the surface of cube twist too,, why? I did not set any weight map,,)

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

Remember to select all of the bones after you create your figure and turn the Bend property off. Then each will move as a unit without deforming, and you will not need to adjust anything other than the centre and end points. The old style rigging did assign weights to joints, that's needed for bending, but it did so not vertex by vertex but by the position of the points in relation to angled planes and, optionally, a pair of spheres - you are seeing variations because you haven't turned bending off.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

Thanks, I finally found "bend" misc category option in parameter tab
I had mistaken, your "bend" menas. so I rocked every rotation (bend, twist, side-side)
then,, it something wrong, if I could not tell you what I want,, then unrock again,,

But Now I can understand. I get all what I wanted to know (exporting group, and rig prop without weight map)

thanks much Richard.

then to save it as figure or prop, I need to change it as traiax figure finally. do not need I?
and if I keep bend setting, I should modifier assets ?

kitakoredaz · August 2012

Now, I tryed save,
if I want to save the "rigged-obj" (without weight map, no bend option),
as figure or prop, I should change triax figure. if I do so, it can not keep "no bend" option.

So I try to save it as daz scene file as "riggedobj.daz" . but everytime I road the file,
it turned erroer message,, and the geometry (surface) do not road.
bone only loading,,

I make the rigged prop by obj saved at mylibrary(my default contents directory) >myname>myobj ,
then I save the .daz scene file mylibrary>myname>myscene (almost every dsf file I saved there)

is there something mistake? ><; </p>

I can not save anything,,

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

Try exporting as a CR2. However, aside from the scaling issue you will have with that I think the problem is the two-part group names - "Group2 rig" etc. - as in an OBJ file those are seen as name separators. Open your original OBJ in a text editor and search for "Group2", deleting every instance (or just replacing with nothing) and I think that will work better. That looks like a bug to me - it really shouldn't be keeping both names as group names when rigging.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

Thank you Richard, I hope this is last question about making rigged simple figure (no bend)
.
I understand about group name , so change them by editor.
.
Now I can save the figure (named "rigtest") as daz scene file.
.
and I thought to save "rigtest" as cr2 (actually I tried )

But, the scale setting is difficult.
.
to make this figure, I imported "rigtest.obj" with scale for daz. (whch is exported as 10times scale from hexagon as to use daz studio)
it seems correct scale to wrok in daz studio, then use the geometry, rig and make the prop as you said.
I keep , 1:10 everytime, for Hexagon and d|s obj. scale setting.

I just use "rigtest" on daz studio not poser.
when I exprot it as cr2 file, and load it in daz studio, the prop show with so large scale geometry.
once it killed my graphic card.

I checked cr2 exporter option, but I can not find how to change scale like obj.export improt, or morh loader.

so how to save (export) the "rigtest" as cr2 with relevant scale for d|s4 ?

I do not understand clearly about cr2 file, but it seems need geometry(.obj) with cr2.
under runtime/geometry/

then, I should change the scale "rigtest.obj" '(which used for making the simple figure)
and save it as same name, under runtime/geometry/ direcotry?

I hope (this is not complain), would be able to use more simple rig system for no bending figure
without trx weight (which can be saved as dsf , duf) next version d|s

kitakoredaz · August 2012

now I correct scale.
.
after I export the no weight figre as cr.2 , then export .obj file again with poser scale, then over write geometry for cr2.
.
However afterwards the figure saved as cr2 can not move sameway as I rigged and checked before export.
.
if I rotate child node, it moves other parents node too.
So I checked the face group assigend by poligon Groue editor,
face group has gone away..

did I mistake export obj setting when overwrite?

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

The export options look right, but if the groups aren't in the original imported OBJ for some reason that won't help. Try exporting the geometry of the figure, which you know should be correctly grouped, rather than of an imported obj and see if that works.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

thanks richard so much.. I tried again
first I come to a my conclusion , (I hope it my mistake,,) I could not save as cr2 what I hope.

but I reported how to try again.

==================================================

I could not rememver which I exported the obj of the rigged figure with correct scale or not.

So I checked again.

I had saved the scene of the figure "rigtest" (not weightmapped but rigged) as rigtest.daz before.

so I load the rigtest.daz scene file. then checked group by poligon groupeditor and rig move.

that is fine. If I bend the child node "rig_sphere", only the small sphere surfaces
(assigned as G_rig_sphere) move.

If I bend(rotate z) middle node rig_tube, the tube surfaces(as G_rig_tube, )and
the child of the tube , small sphere surfaces bend, and not move base large sphere, (parent of tube ) surfaces.

Now I exproted the "rigtest" figure on the scene as "rigtest.cr"again.

the geometry of "rigtest.cr" had copied and saved as ">>\Mylibrary\Runtime\Geometries\TK\test\rigtest.obj".

then I exported the "rigtest" figure(which had been checked group) as obj for overwrite the geometry scale.

the alert window "File already exists" showed up, I click "yes" now I overwrote "rigtest.obj"

then load the "rigtest.cr2" from contents livrary. the image icon changed so I hope,,

it goes well,, but,,,It lost the Face group, and move bone only.

so if someone check same things , and do well , please tell me how to. I try again.

and thanks so much to many reply and advide Richard. I can get many knowledge this time.
(I had never export cr2 before,,everytime change triax figure,,)

I know if I use triax-weight (Filled weight 100persents, I can do same thing and save as figure,prop)
so I stop to try now.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

for confirm it, I checked "export obj " from the scene with figure
and import the obj in daz4 again and checked the group. it keeps the group assignement for facegroup.

So I think if I export rigged figure as cr2, the geometry lost the group assignement ,does not it?
I can not confirm whidh of case it happend, ,, but in this case , the gropu assignment has gone away.

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

I just exported an OBJ from a figure loaded from CR2, then imported it into Figure Setup and the groups were still present. So I think the problem must be coming from the figure, not the exporter. You have a hand-edited OBJ with just the correct group names, don't you? Try copying your figure, from the .daz scene file, into Figure Setup (Copy From Select Figure in the option menu), then import your correctly grouped OBJ, and drag it onto the hierarchy - that should replace the problematic group names. Create that figure, and see if it will export and save correctly (ignoring the fact that the scale will still be wrong and will need correcting).

kitakoredaz · August 2012

I wana check it one by one with pic,
so tell me if I mistook when I did.

step1. Now I load a "rigtest.daz" scene. I can load it without problem.
then I check the "rigtest" figure movements.

(confirm that the figure was made by Figure Setup tool,and I saved the scene
with figure, and I did not save it as other file (cr2 or dsf),
I could save it only as "rigtest.daz" scene file).

the rigtest figure on the scene goes well how I hope so.

it keeps "no bend" option, too.

the node name is
"rig_base" >> "rig_tube" >> "rig_sphere" (Parents>>Child)

the three bones are assigned with the each parts of object, keeping "face group". I did not set "Region group"

(these parts are grouped to one , before in hexagon, I just make one group from three parts)

and I check it by porigon group editor too.

(I set "group name" when I group them in hexagon, and when I made the figure on figure set up tool,
change "rig name", and "label name" to remove "group name problem"

, so it keep some problem? if the name of node is wrong tell it please)

step2 Select the figure(rigtest) on the Scene , then copy it on "Figure Setup tool" (by option menu of Figure setup tool)

now I hope to check there something mistake parts about node, or should I change name?

and I did not " import your correctly grouped OBJ, and drag it onto the hierarchy - that should replace the problematic group names. "

I can not which obj do you mean. the obj if the obj by which I made this figure?

I can not which obj I used to make this simple figure. because I try so many times to test,
I have many obj to make this. if I export this rigtest.daz as obj, and reload it OK?

this is so simple figure, ( it is just test, so only two parts obj I will make and try if I hope)
but I need what order is need more clearly. and I think need not to keep mistake group name.

I feel it has not same means if tesi it from cr.2 figure too. because I can not save the figure without seane file,
It happend when I set figure as parametric type then export as cr2.

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

You still have spaces in the group names, which I suspect is the reason you can't export as CR2 (or as OBJ with the correct group names).

kitakoredaz · August 2012

mmmh??

I can export it as obj with keeping face group names.
(of course it keeps "space" too,, and if I rig the obj by FIgure set up, it make automatically make bones name with "space")

so if I make model which have many parts and group it by hexagon, then rig as one parametric figure on d{s4,
I should use text editor and remove space from obj file ,before?

there seems no way to remove the space from group in Figure set up, or poligon group editor.
they apply it automatically, if I made group in hexagon (though I set another name)
or assign again face group (new group name) by poligon group editor?
if the obj has more parts, it seems not easy process.

Oh,,, I hope plug-in which remove space,, from face group name!!!!!
anyway Ok I will test it again, and report it.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

Thanks Richard. I can save simple rig figure as cr.2 and it can move same as I saved as . daz.

I should keep face groups name without space. (I mistook what you mean,, separate name,,)

I do not try yet if I make obj with group hierarchy in hexagon, and export it d|s
how changed surface group,, but if I make one group in hexagon with separate parts,
I can rig the obj without weight map. and save it as cr2 . it seems big step for me ^^;
I seem to make door and nob, or some machine,, may be,,

there is two check point,, I memo them here,,

1 after export the obj as group, I must open .obj file and remove space by texteditor.
I use "replace" option

change "g groupname aabb" >>"g aabb" (g means "group" of wavefront. obj file,,I think)

and use .obj, set figure .

2 after I export the figure as cr2 for save and use in d|s, I export the figure as obj from d|s with poser scale to
/runtime/geometry/ folda where I saved the obj for cr2, and overwrite the obj file with poser scale.

so I can use the cr2, with correct scale in d|s.

thanks so much Richard!!

( I hope the group name bug from hexagon will removed )

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

Yes, those 2 steps are what I was suggesting - glad you have it working now.

I have just finished making a bug report on the way the Figure Setup pane handles group names strings with spaces - it should, in my view, be consistent with the way the CR2 importer handles them to avoid this kind of problem.

sparky_1_1bcc1a2f60 · August 2012

If I may, I don't know what movement you're prop needs, but I find the old Morphs work fine without needing to mess with grouping tools. I do most of my modeling in Wings3D. I just export the base prop .obj, then move and change the shape, then export the morph. You can do this as many times as you need, and you can use more than one morph at a time. Just remember not add or change the mesh geometry, just move stuff around, as to Keep the Vertex order.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

>JustmeNhere

thank you advice. ofcourse I cam make morph for parts of shape movements too.
I make them by hexagon usually. I should choose carefully when I make animate, which is better choice. "simple rig" or just "make morph" for movements.

in this case, I need to try rig system wihtout weight map. of course about just simple oblect (they do not have many parts)
like above, I can make morph of parts which I want to move in the direction I want.

but if the obj has rig(bone) I can adjust the pose or scale of parts of "prop" on d|s more easy and frexibile.

I know many hair(prop) has many morph which can move and shape. and other hairs have rig (figure) .for adjust movements.
(or gohst bone of clothing) so it depends on what I hope.

>Richard thank you , send bug report. I can not describe detail by english with correct grammer. so it is so helpful.

and I checked again when I export and import setting.

I find another way , from hexagon to ds 4 for making parametric rig . ^^v
(I did not understand crear option of exports and imports, Hex and d|s)
.
1. I make a group from many parts. set the name of each parts(obj) in hexagon.
.
2 before export it to ds, I ungroup it. now there are many objects with their each name.
.
3 I select every object, and export with "marge group" option as "new.obj"
.
4 when I import the "new.obj" on d|s, the many parts join to one obj, and their face group has been assigend with correct parts name.
so I need not remove space from face group name now!!
.
It seems to be used for make morph too.
.
now I am trying how to send from ds (one rigged obj with many face groups) to hexagon ( many parts objects with parts name assigned face group in ds)
correctly.

(if I use hexagon bridge, the face group has gone away. it make difficult to select a face group part of obj in hexagon)

Joe Cotter · August 2012

Can someone explain the final process involved here? I am also interested in the steps required to rig a robot type figure vs an organic one, but am having a hard time following this.

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

Which was the stage you needed clarifying?

Joe Cotter · August 2012

I was hoping someone could basically summarize the steps necessary to accomplish this, i.e. all stages, start to finish. If this is too much work I understand, but that is what I was asking.

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

OK, you need to make your model and you need to assign each part to a group - how you do that will depend on the modeller you use.

Then you open the Figure setup Pane in DAZ Studio, right-click in the geometry and groups panel (on the left) and import your OBJ file, just as if you were importing it into the scene.

At the top of the pane, set the figure type to Legacy/Parametric (instead of TriAx weight-mapped)

Now drag the OBJ from the groups panel into the Hierarchy panel on the right - that should create a bone for each group. Drag the bones to parent them, so that yiou have the right hierarchy for your figure.

Now the tricky bit, look at the rotation order column next to each bone - you want the first letter to be the axis that the bone twists about (mostly y for a humanoid shape, but the arms go along the x axis - a robot is harder to predict) so right-click on any that need changing and select the right order. In general you should have the axis that's going to turn furthest last, with the one that will turn least second (so for a human shin you'd want y - the long axis, for twisting - then z - no side-to-side at all - and finally x - the knee bends around the x-axis).

Click Create and your figure should appear in the scene, with its bones running along the geometry as determined by the axis you chose for each part's twist.

Now select all of the bones and go to the Parameters pane - look in the General group for the button labelled bend (not the bend slider, if there is one) and click it so it's off - this will make each part move as a rigid unit.

Finally, switch to the Joint Editor tool, make sure it's set to Centre/End point in the Tool Settings pane, and move the joint centres exactly where you want them.

Save as a scene, and export a CR2 if the OBJ was Poser scaled (if not you will need to fiddle a bit). I prefer, where possible, to have both scene files and cr2 as insurance.

Joe Cotter · August 2012

Ok, I got that to work... not the best example of obj in my case since I selected two mushrooms to play with and there is no parent for the bones... but I did get a bone for each mushroom. The xyz came in wrong order but was able to figure out how to reorient that by right clicking the bone to get context menu... but what I don't see is how to reposition the bone. Currently the origin of the bone is in the center of the mushroom, not the base. Is it automatically set up to the origin of the object and, how can I change the bone's origin?

Richard Haseltine · August 2012

Use the Joint Editor tool - if you look at the Tool Settings pane you can select what you are editing (centres, or settings for a joint parameter) though Centre/Endpoint is the default. You can drag in the scene or you can use the sliders and text boxes in the Tool Settings pane.

Joe Cotter · August 2012

Thank you, found it. I have to play with it and do a bit of research to get it down but now I have enough to figure it out. Thanks for taking the time to explain it Richard :)

kitakoredaz · August 2012

Now I hope heartly we can save such (no bend) simple rigged figure as dsf "figure or prop file"
or as new dpf (that means daz prop file) in next daz studio.

or if I can convert the cr2 figure to triax figure with triax weightmap perfectly by one click "convert triax figure" it seems great .

I tryed "convert triax figure", but the bones loose weight maps without base bone.

I think ,, if I import obj with parts assgined group, in "figure setup tool" with triax figure option,
d|s not only make bones but fill assgined parts with 100 % weight map..
it seems not so difficult , because just selected assigend face and fill.100 % weigt map with grouped surfaces
X , Y, Z, rotatition and scale automatically.(I think some macro file may can do it,,

or I hope "weight map tool" will have simple filled triax weight option .
that means if I selected group and "filled selected surface", it apply 100 % weightmap 3-way and scale.

Joe Cotter · August 2012

I must be doing something wrong. I created a simple snowman, brought into DS, and set up bones with old parametric. The joints still bent the adjoining mesh. I thought parametric would allow me to create bones that did not effect the adjoining mesh.

kitakoredaz · August 2012

mmm,,

if you would have missed "bend" off process,, before I missed too.

after create the figure by figure set up tool with old parametric.

Richard told that

"Now select all of the bones (in scene tab ) and go to the Parameters pane - look in the General group >( misc category)>
for the button labelled bend (not the bend slider, if there is one) and click it so it’s off "

check, after bend "off" , if you set figure "0" from top menu the bend option turned "on" .

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new rigging tool for simple prop (is there more easy way?)

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