Compatibility Matrix
artistb3
Posts: 188
I see that they have added a Compatibility Matrix to the website. Rather than a character Compatibility Matrix, what many of us want is CHARACTER COMPATIBILITY. From day one. No extra cost for 10s of addons to create compatibility. DAZ isn't likely to understand this or make it happen unless the user community makes it clear that the costs currently imposed by these new characters is outrageous and unacceptable.
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
224 S 200 W, Suite #250
Salt Lake City, UT 84101
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
Considering you didn't have any compatibility prior to Genesis and you had to buy or remake many of your items from scratch, it's good that can reuse a lot of your textures and clothing with Genesis. If you want the new tech, yeah you have to upgrade, but nothing is making you do that.. you can keep using what you have.
The nirvana of being able to buy a dress for Victoria 6 and being able to use it on Victoria 16 with zero effort isn't very likely. Even less so with a character morph / skin like Olympia. When one understands how technologies change (rigging, weight mapping, UV mapping, etc.) over time this simply isn't feasible. The reason that Genesis created such a buzz in the 3D world even beyond the Poser / DAZ Studio community is because it was a step in that direction.
Besides, a 3D artist CAN use clothing designed for one character on another. If you're willing to put in the effort. Especially for static images, scaling, translating, manual posing, helper morphs, deformers, etc. can be used to fix any fitting issues, they just take time.
Not saying this is the case for you, artistb3, but most often when someone complains that things aren't compatible, what they really mean is that they want things to work easily.
I don't buy the infeasibility argument. I see new products sold in the store most every week that offer a way to pay for additional compatibility (see http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/genesis-2-cross-figure-resource-kit). Others are spending a good deal of time finding free workarounds for incompatibilities that could be eliminated in the original development (e.g. http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24093/).
We all want new technology. And most of us are willing to invest in it when the benefit outweighs the cost. But what we are being offered here is new-technology+a-lot-of-additional-cost+a-lot-of-additional-work+incompatibilities-with-existing-content vs. older-technologies.
For it to make sense investment-wise (time and money) for a lot of us, the choice we must make is older technology.
I think you've said what Johnny just mentioned in his post.
The first item is content developer script to make it easier for the male and female content because it copies the shape and rigging to the item. This couldn't be solved in the original development as you said, since the sexes were separated so the can use specific rigging and weightmapping rather than using one and the developer having to create lots of corrective to get it to work like a particular sex.
The second method allows you to copy morphs from one figure to another, but you still have to fix rigging and make correctives to behave correctly in the new .. or older figure. And there are pitfalls that people have experienced.. such as a particular figure becoming the default genesis shape rather that one that it's supposed to be. The items for sale do this for you, so it's easier for the end user to use.
But this is the cost of compatibility, companies don't make money from you reusing items so not much focus is there.. .thus you see 3rd parties doing it and leaving the company free to do R&D on new stuff or develop their current products.
Greetings,
Backwards compatibility is a millstone, in every field. You just can't build something significantly new starting with, 'it has to work perfectly with the previous version'.
Yes, people will figure out ways to hammer that square block into the round hole of the new thing, but that should never be more than a stop-gap measure.
If you're smart ('you' being the person creating the new thing) you'll let the market create the method to hammer that square block into the round hole, because an unofficial solution can be buggy due to irreconcilable differences, but an official solution can significantly hurt your brand if it's not perfectly backwards compatible.
-- Morgan
Do I see correctly?
V5/Genesis1 can use V4 morphs, but V6/Genesis 2 cannot????????
WTF, DAZ, REALLY???????????
And the new legacy packs for V6/M6 do not include clone figures????? Is this gonna change or do we have to buy those separatly? REALLY????
Daz always provided a compatibility to one generation before - out of the box for free.
V4 is able to wear V3 clothes (V4toV3.cr2 and no morphing possible)
Genesis is able to wear V4 clothes
Genesis2 is able to wear Genesis1 clothes
Everything that is more is something you will have to pay for ... simply because it costs time and money to create it.
(Would I like it for free? Sure. But Daz3d is a store and a company and they do have to make money to survive)
And believe me: I remember the time when you had to pay for the base figure without any morphs ...
I consider G1 and G2 as one figure. The time between them is so short. Instead of bug fixing genesis they gave it a new name.
So I still think:
V5/Genesis 1 can only use V4 morphs because of GenX. If GenX didn't exist, V4's morphs wouldn't have been compatible with Genesis 1. Dimension3D is still working on the update for the new figures.
I don't think M4 was provided a way to wear M3's clothing, and definitely none of the kids/teens.
I don't think M4 was provided a way to wear M3's clothing, and definitely none of the kids/teens.
Unfortunately the men are always left behind - and even farther down the line are kids ...
Is G2 considered to be an upgrade from Genesis? If so, I offer this: near ubiquitous in the software industry, companies offer upgrade pricing for new generations of products. If these DAZ characters and the new-generation add-ons are upgrades, where is the upgrade pricing?
What I hear from DAZ is: "If you wish to go with us, prepare to re-invest in characters, morphs, textures, poses, and character-specific content every two years. Also, there may be significant disruption to workflows. Sorry, limited backward compatibility and only offered with full re-investment.". Those who claim there is existing out-of-the-box compatibility perhaps have not attempted to re-use morphs, poses, textures (or even shoes of many types), etc. Also, if the compatibility is built-in, why are there so many products offered to address compatibility issues? I have my doubts that Genesis would have survived at all if Dimension3D had not come along with Gen X.
Further examples: For Genesis, we invested in "Gen 4 Iconic Shapes for Genesis". Now we are being asked again to invest in "legacy" shapes, this time for G2. However, now there are two products: one for G2 male, and one for G2 female. On top of that, add "legacy" shapes for Genesis. Perhaps down the line, there will "legacy" shapes for Gen 3? In ten years, the number of these add-ons will have to multiply exponentially. In my view, those who simply see this as economic opportunity, are just missing the point.
DAZ uses the term "legacy" conveniently in order to point out that if you are still using Gen 3-4 or Genesis, you are using outdated technology. However, a quick look at the DAZ store shows that many products for "legacy" characters are still sold as new and on a regular basis. There are other sources out there that provide little else except Gen 4 content.
I am retired from the software business and I do know a bit about evolving technologies. We worked with hundreds of suppliers over the years. The suppliers that made the grade over the long term had a significant message for their product development and marketing teams: if the benefit of a new feature does not outweigh the cost to the customer, then the feature must either be eliminated from the product or the feature must be re-worked. The best companies found ways to bring new features to the market with little disruption to customer workflows and a clear cost/benefit advantage.
I started out with Genesis plus Gen 4. For those who settled on Gen 4, years ago, there are some significant advantages. One, little disruption to workflow (therefore allowing one to focus on artwork instead of workarounds). Two, complete re-use of existing Gen 4 content, morphs, poses, and textures. Three, drop-in compatibility with new Gen 4 content. Can one do superior artwork with a Gen 4 character and content? Take a look at this if your not sure: http://www.daz3d.com/gallery/#images/13344
I don't think G2 is considered an "upgrade." It's a brand new figure (two brand new figures, technically: G2F and G2M), and does not replace the Genesis figure. I still use the original Genesis more often than not.
No one is forced to use the "new" figures and drop the "old" ones. If you are happy with V4 or Genesis or whatever, simply stay with it and ignore the others. There is enough content for the "old" figures and it is still selling, so it seems that many people are doing exactly the same.
Exactly the point. It is a new product line with a few new features but significant new costs to the end user.
Want to keep up with the new technology? Want compatibility with previous product lines? Prepare to invest heavily (time and money).
The message I have been trying to convey here is that if we want new technology and compatibility, there is a way to help create a change in direction. But it is going to require that the user base weigh-in significantly with our voices and pocketbooks in order to make this happen.
Personally, I think DAZ is missing the economic boat by making the product decisions they have made. It doesn't take much imagination to see the possibilities that exist when product decisions don't result in the alienation of a large portion of the existing customer base.
Right, but there is another thing that comes to my mind. There are not only existing customers who have (and still use) tons of "old" content. There are also new customers. People who discover DAZ right now, who have never heared about V4 or M4. They download DAZ Studio right now for the first time, they get G2F and G2M for free! And maybe they like it for all the new features, for the details, the realism, HD addons subsurface and that stuff. They do not need compatibility. And those who do, well, they just have to invest a little to get the best of both worlds. I personally did it, because I like G2F but I do not want to buy tons of clothes again. So I bought this one: http://www.daz3d.com/morphs/victoria-4-for-genesis-2-female
And now I can use all my "old" items with the new figure (or almost all of it). And thats much cheaper than buying a whole new wardrobe again.
True, and when I saw G2 arrive, I initially presumed that this was a primary motivator for DAZ. Many of the old customers would be put off but compensation could be made with new customers. So, perhaps, this is the target market for G2? Since I started working with DAZ products in 2011, I have heard nor seen nary a peep out of DAZ top management on any subject.
For those who are starting out and doing it with G2, you are in a similar position as those starting out with Gen 4 or Genesis. I would urge extreme caution because unless DAZ changes how it does things, you will find yourself in similar position (as the Gen 4/Genesis users) in a couple of years. You will have significant time and money invested in G2 and then find one day that DAZ has released a new G3 that promises technical superiority but little compatibility. You may decide to stick with G2 and then find that most of the new content is being developed for G3.
I bought both Gen 4 and Genesis at the start. I went with Genesis and DS4 because I preferred the concept of a genderless character that could morph into most anything. I was astounded when I saw that DAZ had backpedaled to a M/F approach with G2. If I knew then what I know now, I would definitely have chosen Gen 4 over Genesis (as so many experienced users have done). The fact of the matter is that most of the content I use with Genesis was designed for Gen 4.
So, I believe it is also in your best interest to consider right now joining those of us who refuse to buy into this strategy.
My iphone 3 was only 3 or 4 years old and that was legacy. Apple stopped sending updates to it to update software after the intro of IOS7. Finally I had to buy a new phone after holding off so long. By the time I bought my Sega Dreamcast with all the controllers, games, and adapters in 2000, it was legacy and discontinued after 3 years after its introduction. 3dFX voodoo card didn't fare much better when they were bought out by Nvidia and they didn't make drivers for it to work with the new version of windows.. when I bought the video card new 3 months prior. When you look at all the electronic items and software, you'll probably see that everything lasts between 2-3 years before it's considered legacy or discontinued. DAZ shouldn't be any different, as Gen4 is way over that mark because of things that been discussed many times before in the forums.
I am retired from the software business and I do know a bit about evolving technologies. We worked with hundreds of suppliers over the years. The suppliers that made the grade over the long term had a significant message for their product development and marketing teams: if the benefit of a new feature does not outweigh the cost to the customer, then the feature must either be eliminated from the product or the feature must be re-worked. The best companies found ways to bring new features to the market with little disruption to customer workflows and a clear cost/benefit advantage.
I work for a software company providing digital content, While customers have their individual needs for our solutions and when to apply updates, our development life cycle goes at 18 months (which is standard in the software industry) with point upgrades. Because of the tighter life cycle, we could bring solutions and new tech to market faster such as streaming video to mobile devices within the customer's property... and were the first to do so in our industry two years ago, blindsiding our competition. Some of our competition and even customers tried to do the same thing.. and failed.. and we just took over a project from a client where they had a competitor try and fail with the same product. We just hired a bunch of iOS developers and QA to keep up with the demand in installs we have for this coming year and next. And my job position expanded where now I'm doing 25% travel domestic and internationally most likely 30%... and I have to go through security with a bunch of work, passport and government IDs. And that's what staying ahead does.
So I understand the advantage of making sure your company stays on top of tech advances, because that's how a company leads, grows and stays ahead of the competition... and drives new customers to you.
I have to just laugh when I hear things like this. In order to accurately say DAZ has made an economic mistake, you have to first be able to accurately say that they have lost sales from these decisions instead of massively gained them. Speaking as a DAZ vendor who started here with Genesis and now makes content for G2, whatever they're doing, it's extremely successful.
Backward compatibility is promised to no one in any product line. The fact that DAZ even lets us third parties make intercompatibility facilitators is generous (speaking as the maker of those facilitators), because it allows people to not upgrade to the newest figures when DAZ has the most investment in that tech. (I'm guessing they do it because of the Gen 3 and 4 Plat Club sales.) Remember that the most powerful interconverter is AutoFit, and AutoFit is made by DAZ, not by third parties.
If it is indeed doing well then I'm sure the venders who are filling the compatibility gaps are laughing all the way to the bank. Let me tell you it is not funny to those of us who are faced with the cost of "upgrading" from one product line to the next. I don't know how successful DAZ has been with G2. In particular, when it comes selling to Gen 4/Genesis users. The evidence I see indicates to me that DAZ has alienated a significant group of users. Remember, Genesis could be used only in DS until the DSON thing came along. I do believe that DAZ can gain significantly by making decisions that avoid alienating existing users.
Everyone seems to focus on clothing and how easy it might be to re-use Genesis clothes on G2. I know there are issues here, but there are other factors to consider, as well. There are lots of existing morphs purchased for prior generations. GenX will not work with G2 and when it is re-released, additional cost will be imposed. Poses from V4 do not work well on Genesis and Genesis poses do not work well on G2. Our collection of character textures require workarounds in order to be used with G2. Try using your investment in M4 genital textures with Genesis or G2. And one thing that irks many of us the most that there is a significant disruption in workflows when attempting to integrate a new product line that ignores backward compatibility. Want to recreate/modify in G2 a favorite character that you made using Genesis morph packages? Buy the new GenX (when available), buy the new morph packages for G2, and then start over.
I have to cry when I hear things like this regarding AutoFit. It gave me fits over the past two+ years. It worked marginally well as long as one is not fitting long skirts or shoes of many types. But It really wasn't until your product came along that we had a decent addon to autofit. Can you honestly tell me that this sort of capability could not have been designed into the original product? Did DAZ even try to address an issue that was clearly an ongoing concern to a lot of end users?
In my view, it was the vendors who filled the gaps and, hence, saved the day for Genesis. Not DAZ.
So I understand the advantage of making sure your company stays on top of tech advances, because that's how a company leads, grows and stays ahead of the competition... and drives new customers to you.
Sorry, but I honestly don't see the relevance in the above. Was DAZ staying on top of tech advances when it first launched its new website? For the sake of staying on top, was it more important to launch a dysfunctional website than it was to meet the customer need for a stable site? If so, someone please show me how we customers (or DAZ for that matter) derived a benefit that outweighed the inconvenience (cost) of launching a site before it was even close to being ready. How many customers did that drive to DAZ?
Everyone (I think) here wants new features that will allow us to create higher quality art in a faster time frame. When I see an item in the DAZ store that provides this capability at a reasonable cost, I buy it. I don't add G2 or it's associated content/tools to this list. Primarily because my evaluation tells me that the benefits I might derive from this product line do not outweigh the monetary/time costs imposed. And it all boils down to compatibility (or lack thereof).
Autofit is not perfect. The Transfer Tool works slightly better and using Sickleyield's tools allow more items to be used including dresses. I found for shoes that if i posed a Gen4 character in Gen1's default pose and export the shoes as a obj, and shape it in an external modeler and use the transfer tool on that, I get very good results on that. So I have been able to reuse a lot of my Gen4 clothing and shoes because DS has made rigging clothing much easier.
That's what we're supposed to do for each generation. DAZ has always provided the base for us to work with. Genesis and Genesis 2 has allowed us to create better products rather than just clothes or custom heads with default body morphs as so they work with clothing. From RawArts characters to Smay's Mr Hyde as well as other products, PAs have been able to provide more diverse products than what you've seen in Gen4.
It was about as relevant as your "retired from software" comment, but moreso as I currently work in the industry of digital content development.
Was DAZ staying on top of tech advances when it first launched its new website? For the sake of staying on top, was it more important to launch a dysfunctional website than it was to meet the customer need for a stable site? If so, someone please show me how we customers (or DAZ for that matter) derived a benefit that outweighed the inconvenience (cost) of launching a site before it was even close to being ready. How many customers did that drive to DAZ?
Well if you know the history of the old website, the older one was seriously broken as well and couldn't handle the store. Don't want to get into this more than that, but yeah the switch over didn't go over well. But this has no bearing on G1 on G2 as DAZ doesn't make web store or forum software.
Everyone (I think) here wants new features that will allow us to create higher quality art in a faster time frame. When I see an item in the DAZ store that provides this capability at a reasonable cost, I buy it. I don't add G2 or it's associated content/tools to this list. Primarily because my evaluation tells me that the benefits I might derive from this product line do not outweigh the monetary/time costs imposed. And it all boils down to compatibility (or lack thereof).
Well everyone has their opinions on the subject. However, the main thing you should take in account is that PAs generally make products that bring in money. So if you see more G2 items in the store than G1 or Gen 4, that should tell you where most of the customers are putting their money. PAs aren't going to put out things that don't return on their investment. So probably most of those buyers aren't as concerned with compatibility as you are so it isn't much of an issue to them.
I have heard all the DAZ public excuses for foisting this disastrous website on us. The reason I mention it and why I think it is relevant is that it provides us with valuable insight into how DAZ views it customer base. What I hear DAZ saying is "We do what we think is good for DAZ and risk that customers will get just enough of what they want in the long run". I have seen a pattern of this in the past few years: selling DS and then giving it away for free with no compensation to those who purchased; selling DS and then providing a manual more than two years later. Confidence or arrogance?
Everyone (I think) here wants new features that will allow us to create higher quality art in a faster time frame. When I see an item in the DAZ store that provides this capability at a reasonable cost, I buy it. I don't add G2 or it's associated content/tools to this list. Primarily because my evaluation tells me that the benefits I might derive from this product line do not outweigh the monetary/time costs imposed. And it all boils down to compatibility (or lack thereof).
True, I do see a few more items for G2 in the DAZ store. I took a quick inventory of the new items in the store this morning. What I found is: 38 items that support G2 and 36 items that support Genesis/Gen4. Interesting how many items are designed for V4. In other places, I see about the same ratio of Gen4-to-G2 products as we saw for Gen4-to-Genesis in the past couple of years.
Well RDNA has far less traffic than other marketplaces, so it probably seems that way. However, I don't do much with V4 and I used M4, so I know M4 has been relatively unsupported these days. However, what's offered is still the same type of dresses and bras and panties you've seen before so I don't consider much of it that interesting to purchase since I already have those items for V4.
I think its too early to know how this going to go. I don't see Dawn going anywhere, in large part, for the same reasons many of us reject G2. Incompatibility. Admittedly, there are other reasons. On the other hand, G2 is natively hosted on DS only and a lot of people are not happy with the performance of DSON.
1) You're still using 'many', unless you can prove this, you probably shouldn't use this term.
2) Though the DSON importer has room for improvement, it's still much better than it was when it was first released. I loaded G2M in poser the other day and it loaded a lot faster than previously and I was able to pose it and clothe it without much issue. I know more people are using the importer and satisfied with the performance in Poser, once they stopped listening to the misinformation on how bad it is and tried it for themselves.
I still don't think it's relevant as it has no bearing the general conversation. If anything they've taken their lumps for properly testing items before releasing them. They still have a ways to go, but their releases have been a lot more stable than what they've been in the past because of it.
Ok so the ratio is higher for G2 than the combined G1/G4? Well considering G2 came out this past summer, that adoption rate is pretty high then... higher than it was with G1 around the same timeframe. Which goes back to me saying that G2 is selling well, regardless of compatibility.
The problem is that DAZ stops caring about compatibility or fixing bugs for the old figures. E.g. export to collada or fbx have many new bugs for the old figures in new Daz Studio versions. And the bugs in old versions are never going to be fixed.
I need to know that I can use a figure for some years. And that in that time DAZ tries to fix the things not working with the figure or its export.
Maybe in 4 months there will be Genesis3, so all the stuff that does not work with Genesis1/2 will never be fixed, they will tell you "use Genesis3". And with that the same, the stuff that does not work is never fixed, and soon "try to use Genesis65".
Is there some roadmap such that I can know how long a figure is "valid"??? Let's say I still settle with Genesis2, is there a plan or date for Genesis3? Before we have such a roadmap with dates, I cannot invest anymore money in figures that will probably not get bugs fixed or working exporters.
If I know a figure is here to stay for say 4-5 years, I can at least believe that DAZ will try to fix bugs. With the current model, DAZ has no incentive at all to fix bugs!!!!
I have to just laugh when I hear things like this. In order to accurately say DAZ has made an economic mistake, you have to first be able to accurately say that they have lost sales from these decisions instead of massively gained them. Speaking as a DAZ vendor who started here with Genesis and now makes content for G2, whatever they're doing, it's extremely successful.
Backward compatibility is promised to no one in any product line. The fact that DAZ even lets us third parties make intercompatibility facilitators is generous (speaking as the maker of those facilitators), because it allows people to not upgrade to the newest figures when DAZ has the most investment in that tech. (I'm guessing they do it because of the Gen 3 and 4 Plat Club sales.) Remember that the most powerful interconverter is AutoFit, and AutoFit is made by DAZ, not by third parties.I agree with Sickle that it's unlikely that DAZ have made an economic mistake with Gen2. I think they have pulled in a lot of new users to make up for alienating older users and the reality is that many of us older users buy less anyway as we have large runtimes and we become more choosy about what we buy.
New users still have to build their runtimes up...