An observation about Genesis 2
TheWheelMan
Posts: 1,014
First, I'm not interested in all the complaints about the release of G2F, and I'm not really interested in the cheerleading for G2F either. The way I see it, it's here, this is how it is, and you can either take it or leave it. So this post is to discuss an observation I've noticed and wanted to know if anyone else has seen the same thing. If you want to b*tch about G2F, take it elsewhere. I'm looking for some real reasonable insight here.
Now, my observation. It just seems to me as if G2F has more character in appearance that genesis or the prior Vickie's, but I don't know why. Many of the characters I've seen for her so far just seem more unique, more appealing, and I don't think it's just any changes in the mesh. Looks like so far she's gotten some very nice, new faces that don't look like the typical "dolls" we see most often. I even think some of the clothes and hairs are cooler. I also notice that more of her stuff is Poser ready, something I still find frustrating about G1 stuff. Much of it just hasn't been made Poser ready yet. But GF2 came out of the gate with much better support, it seems.
Am I imagining all of this? Is GF2 getting more support or better support from PAs? Or is the improved mesh, while the changes are subtle, making a big difference in the overall look? I have bought stuff for G2F, but I'm not abandoning Vicky 4 or Genesis 1 anytime soon. I just want to see Whether others have noticed what I have, or if I'm just delusional? :)
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I'd say you are.
But maybe I'm the one imagining theres no improvements so far about G2F, Gia 6, Girl 6 and Victoria 6 looks nice but female characters always look better than the previous generation, so no surprise. Could have been done with Genesis.
Not noticing changes in clothes either.
Cant say about PCF because I don't care about Poser.
I have noticed the same and I would say its due partly to having a female base instead of a non-gender base.
I've noticed this as well, but I think it's because creators are already knowing what people are wanting from reading Genesis wishlists (more ethnic characters for one) and applying this knowledge to G2F. More of a variety and that pardon the expression, but that one skank does not fit all.
Also, while I think Matty may have a point, I don't really see the difference between modelling against G2F and modelling against a female shape of Genesis. I haven't looked at say G2F and V5 side by side in wireframe though.
I do also say give it time though. Within a year or two everything will be looking the same again. lol
The big difference in modeling against the figures is getting to the base shape. Going from V5 to Genesis meant cleaning up and losing detail around the breasts. As G2F has the breasts cleanup is unnecessary.
Doing female morphs are easier as the mesh flows support feminine shapes and less JCMs.
If it's less work under the hood to get to the final product, more content makers will get on board.
The big difference in modeling against the figures is getting to the base shape. Going from V5 to Genesis meant cleaning up and losing detail around the breasts. As G2F has the breasts cleanup is unnecessary.
Doing female morphs are easier as the mesh flows support feminine shapes and less JCMs.
If it's less work under the hood to get to the final product, more content makers will get on board.
Thanks for the explanation. :) I haven't quite figured out the *behind the curtain* so to speak of body morphs since I haven't really went down that road yet (I'm going towards clothing and textures first).
Was modeling characters for Genesis similar to doing clothing for it? Start/use the base mesh rather than a morph?
You don't have to look at the wireframe of the models to see the differences. G2F and V6 start out as better generic female shapes. Remember how many people commented that V5 looked a lot like the Reby Sky morph and Stephanie 5, well best not to ask me what I think see looks like.
It might simply be a matter of better texture maps. I'd say 40% of a character's look comes from the topology but it's the texture maps that really make things pop.
I think is more that daz achived a very good femenine but still real proportions of female. U just thave to compare the breasts with any figure, V6 are much nutural than anyone. In general V6 has a more real human shape than other figures like v4, v5, genensis, dawn that are more doll/ manequinn proportions. I also like the fact that V6 is not plain, it has soft muscles everywhere, legs, arms, abdomen, etc that adds realism but still are soft and doesnt seem like a bobdybuilder female.
Despite all, I think there is 2 more improvements that makes V6 better, 1 its the textures, i think artists improved a lot the textures of V6 wich a i think it adds realism, and the textures released so far are very different and a few ones are doll textures. And the 2 improvement is the SSS shader, that in most textures are included and alredy set up, so u can see the results easy and fast without passing through the pain to have to set up manually.
People can hate V6 for lot of reasons but nobody cant deny that right now is the best female figure out there in the poser/daz world
What I see in G2F that would give her more character are better facial expressions. Beyond that I think it is the same old, same old. Progress in the textures and SSS has been and is still being made and should affect all generations. For my taste, proportions are out of whack for a normal female as is her posture. But that has been the case since Vicky was "born".
My guess is part of what you are seeing is the results of DAZ Artists and PAs learning the technology. Genesis was built on a new platform as the tools for that platform were being developed. The Artist were introduced to Animating Rigs, Auto-Loading/Auto-Following Morphs, Weight Map Painting, Morph Projection, Single Skin Meshes, and Subdivision at roughly the same time. Some of these had precursors, but most of it was very new to many PAs. Now that time has passed, best practices are being to be formed as well as various tips, secrets and tutorials. It takes time to flush out new technologies. Bug Fixes and Modifications to the tools to improve content development have also been made. Now there's still more to be learned and tried, but I think we are seeing the results of some of these improvements and familiarity with the tech. Thinking about other generations, it is like the difference between Victoria 1 and Victoria 3 (skipping Victoria 2 because it was just morphs on Victoria 1).
With Zev's Shape Shift tool you can really change her up and the G2F mesh cooperates very well. You can change the proportions to your whim with that tool. You aren't locked into what a particular PA likes. You could make the changes before to a degree, but now you really can.
http://www.daz3d.com/shape-shift-for-genesis2-female-base-and-v6
Be sure to watch the video at that link!
To me, I think it's the whole package that's working. And it's so nice to have the eyes fixed with better geometry so we can more easily get better reflections. I just wish more of the original packages had better eye textures like some V4 characters have, but that's easily enough remedied. It would've wowed some folks a little more if that had been done at the get go.
I actually think a lot of it is subjective and depends to an extent on personal taste and interests.
For me, G2F is getting appalling support from PAs, and is having a bad effect on further support for Genesis as well. As soon as she was released, I expected that the proportion of new clothing released for G2F and, from then on, for Genesis that I would have any interest in buying would fall sharply. It's turned out I was being optimistic - since the day of the G2F release, and including all the clothing in the V6, Gia and Girl6 Pro bundles, there has not been a single clothing set - or indeed item - released for G2F that I would even download if it was free, let alone would buy, It's all sexed up, scanty, girly, impractical, unrealistic, or some combination of those - nothing any of my female characters would be seen dead in. And there hasn't been any new clothing, male or female or unisex, that I'd want for Genesis since the G2F release either, barring one set that was the kind of thing I'd want, but was disqualified by just containing inferior versions of clothes I'd got several better versions of already. So the clothing making PAs have not been serving me at all, and have stopped getting any of my (limited) money. I will buy ... if they actually make anything - anything at all - I want. I don't recall any figure release since I started this Poser/DS caper in 2004 that hasn't produced any clothing at all that I want for this long.
I am entirely unconvinced by the claimed advantages of the base shape, and in as much as there may be any at all (I will concede they may make life easier for PAs, though not that they are actually necessary for the required results), think they are seriously outweighed by the disadvantages. (I will also observe that way before G2F there were Genesis clothing releases that ONLY had female fittings, and others that ONLY had male ones. That was a perfectly viable approach.)
I buy character sets just for textures, and sometimes (but rarely) to add included morphs - or partial morphs - into the mix; I never use character set morphs just as supplied as I create my own characters. I do, though, find many of the G2F characters in the store in the promos uglier and more cartoony than those the same PAs were making for Genesis and V4, so to my eye there's been a step backwards in that respect, although not one that practically impacts me. In terms of morphing G2F into my own characters, I've just run into the lack of available body and face morphs as compared with Genesis, and have only been able to make progress by using the transfer utility to transfer Genesis Morphs (including GenXed V4 morphs) to G2F. Which I do have to say it has done flawlessly. The best character I've managed on G2F ... looks exactly like my Genesis version. And I mean exactly, having used the same name G2F morphs where they existed, and transfer utilitied Genesis (including V4 GenXed) morphs where they didn't. (Having been disappointed to discover the base and major G2F morphs didn't include the basic flexing morphs - bicepflex, gluteflex, calfflex - that always used to come with the first major morph pack for e.g. V3/M3, V4 and M4 morphs++, I was more than pleasantly surprised to find that the transfer utility transferred the entire Genesis Evolution Muscularity set of morphs over to G2F in a matter of seconds, and they all work flawlessly with G2F and her V6/Gia6 etc shapes. And about half-an-hour with a text editor that will load multiple files and do global search and replaces got them not only with their original labels back, but all the ERC as in Genesis too so the Flexions On-Off and Muscle Volume dials are now there and working too in my G2F. Indeed I can't see how a store sold set for G2F would be any better or different.)
As for the textures ... well, there aren't that many yet, and the ones there are don't strike me as being at all superior to many of the V5, S5 and even V4 ones.
The one thing that does strike me as providing a quantifiable improvement on render is the effect of the Normal maps that came with V6 and Gia6. But that's nothing technical to do with G2F/V6. Normal maps could equally be supplied in V5 (or V4) UV form for use on Genesis.
And lastly, while I had a Genesis, a G2F and a Dawn loaded up together to compare bending, I came across something that surprised me about G2F. I had at least expected that the joint bending in G2F would be better than Genesis's. and for some bends it is. But for some bends it's actually worse. I had one pose applied that had them crouching down with the left upper arm down beside the torso, and looking from the back at the arm/torso junction noticed that the G2F bend was somewhat better than the Genesis one if looked at close up. But when I swung the camera round to their fronts I didn't have to look at all closely to see that the front arm/torso junction on the G2F was nastily crumpled while on Genesis it was fine. Really wasn't expecting that. (I do have to say that both Genesis and G2F bend significantly better than Dawn to my eyes. Especially Dawn's shoulders, elbows and wrists make me wince ... indeed there's something really rather creepy about them.)
So - I don't think you are imagining things; but your wants, needs, tastes and focus are clearly different to mine. I'm probably a minority taste - well, DAZ and the PAs had better hope so, or they are going to go very hungry the way things have been going since the G2F release from my perspective. And at least for now I'm sticking with Genesis, as I can only morph G2F the way I want by transferring Genesis morphs, so might as well just morph Genesis, and can only clothe G2F the way I want by transferring Genesis (and M4, V4, some M3, some V3, some S3 and some D3) clothes to G2F, so might as well just clothe Genesis (especially as for M4, M3, V3, S3 and D3 I'd have to do a double convert, first to Genesis, thence to G2F, and multiple conversions just means multiplying the distortions).
I have G2F. I'm watching the store. But as yet DAZ and the PAs have served me, my wants, tastes and needs not at all. I'm becoming reconciled to the thought that for my future figure clothing needs I will just have to morph, cut, add to, retexture and assortedly adapt my existing 3D wardrobe.
With Zev's Shape Shift tool you can really change her up and the G2F mesh cooperates very well. You can change the proportions to your whim with that tool. You aren't locked into what a particular PA likes. You could make the changes before to a degree, but now you really can.
http://www.daz3d.com/shape-shift-for-genesis2-female-base-and-v6
Be sure to watch the video at that link!
To me, I think it's the whole package that's working. And it's so nice to have the eyes fixed with better geometry so we can more easily get better reflections. I just wish more of the original packages had better eye textures like some V4 characters have, but that's easily enough remedied. It would've wowed some folks a little more if that had been done at the get go.
Funny you should bring that up, because if not for Zev0 I would not have given G2F any attention at all. His Growing Up morphs are what finally convince to spend some money and give the girl some time. As other PAs create something for G2F that is new and different I may spend more, but for now I don't see the point of V6 and G6 rehashed. To me, its about eyes, textures, and expressions. So far, the PAs have not capitalized on these areas, for the most part.
Take what you will from this - I started it inspired by this thread because I was curious what sort of difference I would notice between my own G2F renders and the renders I do with Genesis 1 characters, and now I decided I'd post it. :blank:
It's a compilation of the faces of more or less recent female genesis 1 renders and some samples from the (much smaller) pool of my genesis 2 female renders.
I figure the baseline here is my own artistic tendencies and skill level and that makes for at least some kind of "real-world use" comparison. Comparing them under similar conditions was not my interest here, I've looked at plenty of that. My interest was in what I ended up doing with their faces by the time I arrived at the final render of something. Of course I haven't had as much time with G2F, so my familiarity with and ability to deal with the quirks of Gene1 is a bit higher.
I should say my instinct going in is that there's something to what TheWheelMan is saying, I wanted to see if I could identify what makes me feel that way.
I like both figures quite a lot. If anything, doing this reaffirms what I like about each of them. I do think G2F seems to be more of a natural at conveying nuance. Those "improved" expressions, those slightly more detailed areas around the eyes and cheeks and corners of the jaw. It's subtle, but that's the point, and the subtle expressions happen just a bit more easily, and it seems to be where I'm drawn when working with G2F. There was never any doubt about Genesis's versatility, even here in this small sample (which of course I limited deliberately to just women - no men or aliens or fiends) I see a lot more variety, and it comes as no surprise. It reminds me once again how much i enjoy the flexibility.
An odd note: Apparently, I seem to have done a few more "face forward" renders of G2F while my Genesis renders seem to have a greater tendency to end up with their face at angle. Couldn't tell you why.
Anyway, may or may not be interesting to anyone but me. Also, it's easier to see the faces with the picture big. Would liked to have some of them even bigger, but for many, that's actually the full res I had :)
...when G2F was released I was one of the biggest skeptics on these forums. The idea of going back to a gender specific figure definitely seemed to be a step backwards, and a "kick in the wallet" for people like myself on an extremely limited budget. One of my biggest faults was the lack backwards compatibility even with the original Genesis. Then there was speculation about would we need to purchase different G2 figures (Male, Kid [Female/Male]. Teen [Female/Male] etc...) to do the same as we could with Genesis, and how long would we have to wait before each was released.
For me that changed withZev0's Growing Up morphs. This is a wonderful set that goes much further than the Basic Kid and YoungTeens5. The beauty of it isn't a specific "character" (like Julie/Justin) but a more generic Child/Teen/Young Adult shape based on actual age proportions. there is even a morph that allows for pelvic angle adjustment eliminating the "swayback" posture.
I will also say that the G2F morph pack has a lot more going for it than the original Evolution morphs. For one there are right and left side facial morphs which the Evolution Morphs didn't have. There is also a much wider array of facial expression pose settings and finally a smile that looks more natural. Second I feel the body shaping morphs have been improved as well. There is even a "Breasts Gone" morph which the original never had. Before YT5, war released, I had to load the Stph4 NPMs via GenerationX to get a more petite size more suitable for a Pre/Young teen character and use Thorne's Satsuki to get a narrower hip bone.
In fact it to create several of the characters for my story, G2F required less of an investment than the original Genesis as all I Needed were
G2F Base (free)
Growing Up
G2F Head and Body Morphs Bundle
Head Morph Resource Kit for G2F
The V4 to G2F Clone (to use skin maps)
Basically purchased the last four all on sale.
With Genesis I needed (*prior to YT5)
Genesis Base (free with Daz 4.6)
Genesis Evolution Morphs
Body Morph Resource Kit 1
Head Morph resource Kit 2
V4 and M4 Shapes for Genesis
*Generation X
*Satsuki for Genesis.
edited and removed by user
One of the things I liked about genesis was the ability to also make non-human forms. So far, gen2 women don't have an aliens or monsters in their ranks beyond those of the pretty female nearly human variety.
I have more than enough white female characters, so I don't get the attraction of G2F/V6/G6 etc. Great if rendering white females of a certain type is your thing.
Gia's textures seem to be more of Hispanic origin in my opinion, however I'm not so sure about face shape matching the ethnicity. But I certainly agree, G2F is lacking in the ethnic variety. Man I wish the creators of the Elite characters would come back. They had a fantastic variety. I do believe there is something soon to be released to do with ethnicity for G2F. I saw something in the documentation wiki. Not sure what it entails.
Probably they will be sold as separate figures much later, because you know, we need meshes "improved" specifically for each shape.
And if we need separate meshes and morph sets just for regular men and women, imagine how the thing goes with monsters and aliens.
Fortunately Genesis can accomplish it all perfectly fine. :roll:
Don't the ethnic characters always come later after a new mesh's release? I assumed that this was just the case here.
As for the creature thing, I'm sure there are things coming (you just know RawArt has something up his sleeve, right?). But as far as I'm concerned, Genesis 1 is more than enough for those characters.
I made a male and an alien morph on my second day with G2. Didn't finish them (clean little imperfections). I had the idea of releasing them as freebie but forgot about that and didn't take the time to go on. However with Kattey's thread about transferring G1 morph to G2 you can pretty much get all the alien or monsters you want.
I haven't had much luck with the transferring morphs to gen 2. I'm not a huge tinkerer, at least not yet. I'll probably wait for genx
But I still would like some gen2 skins that are alien an inhuman in nature.
...same here. already messed up my original Genesis once. Don't want to go through that again.
It's funny how people says there is just one type of skins of gn2, but have u really looked the skins? I think there is a great variety since now, there is white females that varies from pink, orange, yellow or brown skintones, there is a asian skin a hispanic skin, a black skin, a ultra pale skin even a skin u can use as a vampire like ariadne.
I agree there are still few skins but thats also cos most artits are stuck in V4, it seems 80% of artits are poser users.
Nodding my head to this.
http://www.daz3d.com/people?compat_figures=886
Yes, I want more ethnic skins, and more skins that use either V5 or G2F UVs in general, because of the improved mapping, but it is not as though they are no options there now. For a relatively young figure, it's not a bad assortment.
I would love a new Elite dark skin texture since I still think there hasn't been one to fill the niche occupied by Elite Marie for V4. Elite Marie is one of the few legacy skins I went through and created all the .duf presets for so I could use it on G2F. I am hoping one does come soon, because with the current standard of quality seen with the Belle and Tizania skins (don't have Girl, but also looks very good), I think such a product would be very nice indeed.
I still also think that G2F is too new to really complain much about variety. Assuming it becomes popular enough, the variety of textures will come.
And another thought. i wish DAZ wouldn't refer to the new Genesis as Genesis 2. I really think there is room for Genesis male, female, and neutral. Genesis 2 implies that Genesis "1" is somehow outdated, when instead I think that Genesis 1 itself still provides a very useful figure. Let Genesis 1 be the primary mesh for creatures, blended characters, and as the primary bridge figure between Generation 4 and the Genesis line, since you can fairly easily use your Gen 4 content with it. Let Genesis 2 Male and Female primarily stand as the next frontier and do brand new things with it. Doesn't mean that you can't do creatures for, or use old content on, Genesis 2, but if you create some general separate niches for Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, then both can be well supported and both continue to be successful.
By the way, thank you all for the incredible conversation going on here. There are way too many good points being made to individually thank you, but I'm getting some great new insight into this topic from you all.
A lot of the ethnic skins still seem a bit light in color for g2F.
I'd like to see a few darker skins as well as some fantasy skins which are varying unearthly colors.