Essentially resolved - Alessandro New Rhino- shapes issue solved, but then...
nowefg
Posts: 557
(Original post: "Just a heads-up on Alessandro's new release, Rhinoceros 1:
Product appears to be missing morphs, the species specific shapes that are advertised, and there's a major problem with the MATposes.
Also, Alligator & Caiman has a major flaw with application of MATposes: the models load missing eye and claw textures in the Daz version, and the texture don't apply from MATposes.
The Poser version does load the correct MATpose, but doesn't respond to MATpose changes, like black-eyes or teeth. If you try to change the auto-loaded texture, you lose all texture, and then textures refuse to apply at all. Have to reload and take the stock-load textures.
I have submitted a report to Daz about these not-working-as-advertised products, but in the meanwhile, it's your money; they've already taken mine and once again I didn't get what I paid for. Go figure.")
UPDATE: Shapes issue resolved with a fresh download, but when I used the product, other problems came to light:
Having to manually track down the product's lmh seemed a hassle; the LAMH tab defaults to Studio 4 folder for some reason, even though the Rhino product is selected. That said, I got the lmh applied and rendered, and it looked good.
I then deleted the LAMH Group from the scene, and tried to apply another; got this refusal msg saying I could only have one LAMH preset per scene, a limitation of the free Player. As you can see, there are no LAMH groups in this scene, so it should go.
What I then did was open a new scene, load rhino, load lmh after hunting it down, try to apply it--in a brand new scene--got the same refusal msg. Had to exit Studio, open it again, etc. etc, and then I could apply a preset.
Then, having decided to move on to other products I've recently purchased, I kept the same scene, removed LAMH Group preset from the scene, but when I tried to remove the rhino itself, Studio crashed. No idea what's up with that. Removing an item from a scene shouldn't cause the application to abort, but that's what happened. I've got the log file.
So. Studio 4.6 Pro 64 bit, Windows 7 64 bit, dual-core pc 2.45 ghz, 4gb ram... pretty standard.
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Comments
You certainly can return the Rhino if you're not satisfied, so you can get your money back. You have 30 days from purchase to do so.
Alternatively, you could file a bug report which would be the correct method of getting the problems fixed.
Or even better, file a bug report and if it's not fixed before the 30 days, then return it. Best possible outcome given the current situation. I don't own the Rhino so I can't confirm your reported problems.
Hi, about the Rhino, what version of Studio or Poser are you using? It's an issue that testers have never reported.
I need to check the issues you mentioned on the Alligator+Caiman, it's a product that has been released quite some time ago and never heard of such issues.
Actually, the croc/caimen poses DO work. You just have to select the appropriate material zone before applying them which is not what most people are used to doing.
ETA: The "default" materials for eyes, claws, tongue and teeth don't load when you load the figure though so that can be frustrating as well.
Nowefg, for the Alligator+Caimn, as Adam said you indeed need to select, for example, the eye, and then apply the 'yellow' or 'black' eye material poses.
About the Rhino morphs that seem not to be working for you, are you perhaps on a old, or beta Studio version?
Okay,
Running Studio Pro 4.6.
Adamr001 & Alessandro, on the select material zone first, I did try that, and it had no effect; the texture would not apply, on eyes, teeth, tongue, or claws.
These textures don't load at all, initially, in the Daz version; that's the first problem, the areas load texture-less white. Nothing I tried, short of going to Surfaces and explicitly calling each separate diffuse texture, showed any effect. I didn't actually try that, though it will most likely work. Since the product comes with MATposes, I just tried using the product as is.
Interestingly, in the Poser version, as I said, the models load fully textured, but the trouble starts when a change is made. As soon as the icon for eyes, teeth. tongue, or claws is clicked, the area in question turns dead-white, no remedy short of deleting the model and reloading.
This loss of texture to a particular material zone is happening without explicitly selecting that material zone. So, the model knows which zone is being changed, it's just not applying the chosen texture to it. That's what I'm finding.
One further note, on the gator skin textures, they do apply, and dry/wet seems to, though I didn't seem to notice much difference prior to rendering, which I never got to.
A last note on the models, themselves, both Rhinoceros and Alligator/Caiman. Amazingly detailed and superb examples of the modeler's art, Alessandro. I can highly recommend them, once the issues are resolved.
Not interested in a refund, just a fix. Did I get a bad download? Worth checking, if nobody else is finding the problems.
As ever, about this bug-report business:
For my purposes, and plain common sense, I already have filed a bug report, in that I notified Daz3d that I was finding an issue with a product, so they could check it out, and if they also found the issue, voila! They could remedy the situation.
If not, voila! They could clarify for the consumer. Daz, in the case of a known product defect, can call it's own internal bug-fixes, like everybody else does.
The last time I seriously queried Tech Support about a product issue, including the log file that showed what was wrong, I was told I had a "non-standard system," whatever that was supposed to mean.
Windows 7 64 bit, Studio 4.5 64 bit, non-standard? This is Tech Support?
I re-sent the request, asking for a more considered response, and was told that some higher tech person saw the problem, and that I should file a bug-report. I already had. The product hasn't been fixed, and I have issues every time I load V4, now.
Like I said, go figure; caveat emptor.
Adamr001 - "ETA: The “default” materials for eyes, claws, tongue and teeth don’t load when you load the figure though so that can be frustrating as well."
(A first, obvious bug and red-flag. Something, at least, is a reproducible problem. It's not just happening on my system.)
Alessandro - "I need to check the issues you mentioned on the Alligator+Caiman, it’s a product that has been released quite some time ago and never heard of such issues."
Another quick thought:
These are gorgeous models, highly detailed, and the post-purchase readme doc says Studio 3, so, as you say, dated; but Daz is offering them for sale NOW, in Studio 4.6-time. They're not saying anything about the models being dated, or restricted to Studio 3.
The sale price was why I finally bought them; been considering them for a while.
They're such great models, they are worth keeping updated. Take a tip from Ken Gilliland and his Songbird Remix series, which Ken issues updates on regularly, as the need arises, even on his oldest sets.
That sort of care gives artists/consumers great confidence in an artist's product-line. During the recent sale, I picked up twenty of his sets. I'm sure a lot of other people bought loads as well. That's what this is about.
I'd love to see more animals models from Alessandro. He's that good, but the product needs to be maintained in line with Studio.
I see where the confusion comes from (my apologies for the issues this may have caused to you), on the Alligator+Caiman: the eyes/teeth surfaces, being procedural, are not showing any texture in the preview.
But they get rendered properly and also material poses, even if not showing any change in the preview, will apply the due changes.
Here attached some screencaps to show the initial figure, as it looks in the preview viewport, an initial render, the yellow eyes and the wet skin poses.
About the Rhino, we've tested it from Studio 4.0 and above and morphs seems to work just fine.
Thanks, Alessandro,
On the rhino, in that case, I'll re-download product. Thank you for checking it out.
About the gator, though, I'd take what you're saying, except...
There are two separate cases-- if I open the Daz version, I get no textures, as you say and as I saw.
But, if I open the Poser version, I get all textures in place, including eyes, teeth, tongue, and claws. They show up in preview no problem.
So, what's up? Daz version no, Poser version yes? In both cases, they're running in Daz. That's confusing.
I don't know enough about procedural textures, but it doesn't seem like textures will work in one version, but not in another, in the same Daz scene. They may look different; I may need to adjust surfaces, but they will both show up. Worst case, I'd expect the Daz version to be the one that works, and the Poser not, but it's the reverse.
Also, if I change the Poser version textures for those material zones, THEN I get nothing, but they load beautifully the first time.
Somehow it doesn't seem like procedural textures answers the question.
After applying the materials to the surfaces of the DAZ version have you actually done a render?
It's definitely working for me.
Just a quick comment here: Comparing 'procedural textures' between DAZ Studio and Poser, is like that old saying "Comparing Apples to Oranges"... DS and Poser handle procedural textures completely different! Just as the two handle previews completely different different, or lighting, or a lot of other things. You can't really do any comparisons until after you have rendered!
The re-download of Rhinoceros 1 worked for the shapes. Black, White, and Wooly are all there. I don't get any of the hair details, although I do have the LAMH player installed, as the promo says is required. No idea what I might be missing; opening the LAMH Player tab gives a screen that calls for some interaction, but browsing for the required file didn't turn up anything. There doesn't seem to be any mention of what the required file is called...
On the Gator, I ran a battery of tests, and uncovered the following:
When a Daz format gator is loaded, it appears with textures in place while loading; the eyes, teeth etc. are all there, but once the model is fully loaded, the textures disappear. I f I reposition that first one, and load a second gator, the same thing occurs, except that after loading the second, the first on moves back to the zero position, covering up the second model. That's not at all helpful in scene setups, when the model I've carefully placed reverts to zero as soon as I load another. There are easy-enough workarounds, but it's still a obstacle that has to be dealt with.
With the Poser format, neither of these things happen; the models load fully textured, and don't reposition themselves when a second model is added to the scene. I can change eye texture easily. That's basically a lot more useful.
But, it seems the model itself forces materials in a way that's difficult to interact with, unlike the many, many other "nature" models that I have. Dinoraul's amazing plants have the same problem, but I've been able to work around that to some degree. With Alessandro's model, I'm open to suggestions, but all my attempts dead-ended.
On render, Daz models do render with the "missing" textures in place, though the results I got don't resemble Alessandro's or Adamr001's at all, in either DRY or WET modes. I used my usual outdoor scene start lighting, two distant lights roughly perpendicular to each other, but the model, in preview, seems to swallow the light and so there's no real knowing what it's going to look like rendered. And, as I said, what I got is nowhere near the other poster's results. Different lighting, I imagine.
I checked out the Surfaces Tab situation in all cases, and find that the Daz format has elements I've never seen, and have no idea how to work with: Marble, Math 2, and Daz Material. What are they about?
Tried exporting as obj and remaking textures to suit, and that worked but I lost the pose capability. The Poser textures are easier to work with but don't render well. The Daz textures, as seen in Alessandro's and Adamr001's render shots, look better but there the hide-and-seek business that goes on.
Overall, this model has everything I wanted, but in pieces here and there that can't be accessed together. Since I wanted the gator to use in scenes that include many other nature models that have different lighting requirements, it seems the gator isn't going to be useful. A shame. There aren't any "optimizing lighting" instructions in the readme, and barring more information, the model is not worth the trouble it brings.
How about updating to plain old jpg textures, no special format, that everyone else is using, Alessandro. It would be a lot easier on the users, especially anyone new to your products. Like me, for example. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
In the readme notes that come with the product, you should have the following instructions:
"Look at my Hair instructions
To apply the Look at my Hair presets in Studio, simply select the Rhinoceros (or Woolly Rhinoceros) figure, load one of the 3 provided presets (you can find those in Libraries:Poses:LAMH) and you are all set to render and enjoy the quality that Look at my Hair is able to deliver.
Rhino hair preset intended to be used with both White and Black Rhino, providing fur on tail, ears and eyebrows.
Woolly Rhino fur comes in two options, one with smooth fur and one with clumps and flocks.
Owner of Look at my Hair 1.0 can obviously edit and style the fur even further.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tips for Rendering in Vue
Load the Woolly Rhino preset in LAMH, then click on the "Setup Current Hair Group" button
Adjust the root thickness to 500 and the tip thickness to 50. Click "Update materials and exit," and when prompted, click "yes."
Export for obj as normal by clicking the export hair button. In the export dialogue, click the "geometry type" drop down and choose obj files. Then uncheck the "load in studio" checkbox. Drag the hair complexity slide bar all the way up, and under "hair quantity" type 300,000. Leave the geometry set name and shave group name as is. Do not change them. Click the export button.
In Vue, go to File>import object… and navigate to the LAMH Geometry Folder (typically this will be in Libraries>Documents>DAZ3D>Studio>lookatmyhairAM>geometry) and import the obj model for your figure, then repeat this process and import the obj figure for the LAMH object. When you import the LAMH object, it will appear untextured. To apply the texture map, right click on the texture thumbnail in the upper right hand corner of the Vue viewport, and click "Edit material." Switch to the advanced materials editor and click on the "Color & Alpha" tab. Click on "Mapped Picture" and navigate to the Geometry folder as described above. Select the map for the model you want, then click OK.
You may find that the hair renders darker than you would like in Vue. If this is the case, you can try a couple of things: In the Color & Alpha tab of the material editor, you can check the Color blend and Color Mask buttons, then change the color in the Blend with color box to a light shade. You can also try applying a bright quadratic spot light to the object with the LAMH object, and in the spotlight properties box (right click and "Edit Object") switch off the influence on everything except the LAMH object. You may also want to click shadows to off, and turn the softness was up (to around 6 - 8)."
Please let me know if these are of any help.
When a Daz format gator is loaded, it appears with textures in place while loading; the eyes, teeth etc. are all there, but once the model is fully loaded, the textures disappear. I f I reposition that first one, and load a second gator, the same thing occurs, except that after loading the second, the first on moves back to the zero position, covering up the second model. That's not at all helpful in scene setups, when the model I've carefully placed reverts to zero as soon as I load another. There are easy-enough workarounds, but it's still a obstacle that has to be dealt with.
With the Poser format, neither of these things happen; the models load fully textured, and don't reposition themselves when a second model is added to the scene. I can change eye texture easily. That's basically a lot more useful.
But, it seems the model itself forces materials in a way that's difficult to interact with, unlike the many, many other "nature" models that I have. Dinoraul's amazing plants have the same problem, but I've been able to work around that to some degree. With Alessandro's model, I'm open to suggestions, but all my attempts dead-ended.
On render, Daz models do render with the "missing" textures in place, though the results I got don't resemble Alessandro's or Adamr001's at all, in either DRY or WET modes. I used my usual outdoor scene start lighting, two distant lights roughly perpendicular to each other, but the model, in preview, seems to swallow the light and so there's no real knowing what it's going to look like rendered. And, as I said, what I got is nowhere near the other poster's results. Different lighting, I imagine.
I checked out the Surfaces Tab situation in all cases, and find that the Daz format has elements I've never seen, and have no idea how to work with: Marble, Math 2, and Daz Material. What are they about?
Tried exporting as obj and remaking textures to suit, and that worked but I lost the pose capability. The Poser textures are easier to work with but don't render well. The Daz textures, as seen in Alessandro's and Adamr001's render shots, look better but there the hide-and-seek business that goes on.
Overall, this model has everything I wanted, but in pieces here and there that can't be accessed together. Since I wanted the gator to use in scenes that include many other nature models that have different lighting requirements, it seems the gator isn't going to be useful. A shame. There aren't any "optimizing lighting" instructions in the readme, and barring more information, the model is not worth the trouble it brings.
How about updating to plain old jpg textures, no special format, that everyone else is using, Alessandro. It would be a lot easier on the users, especially anyone new to your products. Like me, for example. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I honestly didn't think of giving any 'lighting instructions' per-se as each user has his/her own way to approach that matter.
In order to make the details come out the common way is to use an environment light (and so in Studio use a UE2 light), and add some spotlights and/or distant lights placed in strategic points in order to product rim and key lights and enhance object detail (basically the 3 point lighting tecnique).
I personally found extremely helpful the following book: "Digital Lighting and Rendering", which explains in detail how to properly lighten and render digital scenes.
Thanks, Alessandro,
I already have an idea how to effectively light an outdoor scene to suit my purpose:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=efgnow
UE2 isn't used in that render, nor any other IBL, and I think it turned out pretty well, lighting-wise. Actually, I tend to avoid UE2, because it can so drastically increase render times at decent quality levels, and doesn't necessarily create the desired effect.
Three-point lighting calls for three lights. UE2 needn't by any means be one of them; three Daz-default distant lights can be arranged easily to create a great, quick-rendering 3-point setup. That your product basically requires UE2 to look good can be problematic, and is something that could be disclosed.
I don't know if this applies to your gator, but I have noticed that product textures originally designed for Poser do better in UE2, in that they are designed for IBL lighting, and so usually show up way too dark in Daz-default, and can be non-responsive to surface changes. I've also noted that artist/venders who offer genuine "Daz" versions generally rework the textures in a Daz-specific way so they look fantastic in ordinary, Daz-default renders, too. Flink is a good example.
Your gator textures don't seem to follow that approach, in that, as I said, they call in the Daz version for parameters I've never heard of, like Daz Material (n), Marble, and Math 2. I have no idea what those are, but I started with Daz in version 4, so maybe these parameters are simply earlier-version Daz parameters. Maybe they're Poser specific, or something else altogether. No way to know.
In any case, I will change the title to better reflect what's come to light, as soon as I figure out how to do that.
Just edit your first post.
Thanks, fixmypcmike !
nowefg, I usually use one UE2, and one direct sunlight. The only exception is if there's other natural light-sources in the scene. You don't have to dial up the UE2 to the max to get good results!! For direct light, I usually set it to 2.5% shadows, raytraced. UE2 set shading rate to 4-8, and occlusion samples to 128 (but you can get good results around 90 samples). The biggest concern is transmapped hair. Anything else is a lot less important.
Thanks, Norse Graphics,
I'll try those settings.
Find out if the light suit your needs. Hopefully my advice will help you. The tip I got from stonemason in a post he made about lighting his scenes, so it's really him you should appreciate. :)