Best Practice for Exporting Carrara Files to Poser? Poser 2014 equals the Death of Carrara?
Headwax
Posts: 9,922
Hya
Dyed in the wool Carrara user here, but.
......
I'd like to export some of my hard won files from Carrara to Poser to take advantage of it's sketch render engine.
I've had a go with Collada but it didn't really work.
Maybe I am pushing the wrong button ???
Any advice on this very welcome.
Materials export not really necessary but would be handy.
I've had a go at emulating the sketch results in the non photorealistic renderer in Carrara but no luck.
So any advice on this would be most welcome as well.
AND
Smith Micro announced Poser 10/2014 the other day.
Having watched the intro videos I am gob smacked, but the one thing that the new Poser brings into focus is what Carrara
could have been had Daz developed it as it should have. (shame on you Daz)
Apart from Carrara's model room it looks to me like Carrara doesn't really have any advantage over Poser at all.
And Carrara's model room is easily supplanted by something like hex etc,
The only thing that remains to be seen is the speed of render in Poser.
You probably know all about it but you'll find the Poser Propaganda videos at the very bottom of this page.
http://poser.smithmicro.com/poser10-poserpro2014/
A sad day for Daz and Carrara and a few [plug in developers .....
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Comments
Sorry Headwax. I think that Carrara is alive and kicking.
I think that while it has many cool features, there's more to Carrara still. Can Poser of any flavor generate terrains? Atmospheres? Volumetric clouds? plants, etc. etc. etc.
If all Carrara had was the vertex modeler, then your statement about Hex might be accurate, but you're forgetting the Spline Modeler and the Meta-ball modeler. Two modelers that I've made extensive use of. Not to mention the above mentioned terrain generator.
The cartoon renderer looks intriguing, but I would almost rather do it in post. The other thing that you need to consider is that demo reels and promotional videos are just that. They won't show the bugs or the limitations.
I wish Carrara had a dynamic cloth room as Poser does, but for me, it's not a deal breaker. I would rather have a walk designer.
ah Yes Evil you are right. I am seeing it from my own perspective.
I do stills only at the moment. I don't want photoreal.
I am more than comfortable with doing postwork.
In fact it's very rare for me to see a render that couldn't be improved by postwork.
Clouds I do in post, atmosphere as well.
That way I can "see" what I am doing.
For me Carrara's clouds are pretty useless as for me they are hit 'n miss because I can't see what I am doing.
Skies? I always (almost) use a pic of real sky that I have doctored up.
Terrains? Good point. But I tend to make my own terrains with the vertex modeller.
Particles? Same as clouds etc because I can't see what I am doing. I prefer to do it in post if I can.
The spline modeller? I'm assuming a third party modeller would also have a spline modeller.
Metaballs - the interface makes it a no goer for me. (Maybe for particles they are good for 'globbing'.)
Carrara;s plant generator? Gah. I have three of Howie's scenes and you'd have to say that Howie is a bit of a king as far
as making plants I reckon. But I need to do more than one render in my lifetime and vertex plants render a zillion times faster (for me).
Mind you if you are talking on the phone to your mum then the Plant generator is fun...
Ah yes, the poser propaganda videos don't show the bugs.
But tell me, when ever did a software developer ever release software that had bugs .... ;)
HeadWax
If you haven't already seen it maybe Digital Carvers Toon Pro plugin for Carrara would give you what you want. -
http://www.digitalcarversguild.com/plugin.php?ProductId=15
Check out the gallery - you can get a demo to try out.
I get your points, but regarding the spline and meta-ball modeler, how many additional pieces of software should you have to use? I like the functionality of having them all under one roof so-to-speak.
My main point is that if I had the extra lucre to throw around, I may get Poser, but it would probably be relegated to a plugin status. I've had most of the DAZ Studio updates because they have some cool new feature. You know how many time I opened D/S this year alone? Once. I wanted to see if it still worked. ;-)
I just don't see it as a Carrara killer. I don't even see how it could be, as it's missing a lot of the functionality that I require.
Yeah Wax,
I don't see this new Poser as a Carrara killer.
I have tried so many versions of Poser going back years.
I have trouble putting clothes on figures and posing them in Poser, so I can't see Poser beating out Carrara.
Remember Daz IS updating Carrara AND we (many of us) haven't really fully explored the full power of Carrara.
just get both!
No offense to Headwax intended! A great artist and contributor to the community here, but I hope this thread dies a quick death.
Why? Because we get the same type of hand-wringing threads whenever there's a new release of software that has feature overlap with Carrara. Usually it's Daz Studio, but I've also observed the same thing with Bryce and DAZ's other software. Not only D/S, but also C4D, Modo, and Blender. All these threads tend to do is throw doubt in the minds of any potential new users that poke their heads in here, and it's usually all speculation, rumor and user anxiety.
Just remembe, the pixels are always less jaggy on the other side of the fence! ;-) That and just because you have Carrara doesn't mean you can't have Poser 2014- It will make a great plugin!
Curse the forum troll for posting her suggestion before my pudgy fingers could type my overly verbose response!
LOL...
I read they are using Bullet for hair. This is like the 3rd incarnation of Poser hair...
Hmmm.... Since most hair is on the head, is that like getting a Bullet to the head? ;-P
Yes thanks I have that. Very good but not quite what I want. I use it for delineating objects/shaders etc with lines so I can isolate them or exaggerate them in post. Great for collage effects etc - but the toon shader doesn't do it for me. :)
Hya Wendy,
Oh I will get both. I don't have anything else to spend my money on except alcohol, women, fast cars and putting coins in the plate at C on Sundays. But seriously, yes I will. I would never desert Carrarara. ;)
Heh, Evil, ah I wouldn't take offence, what worries me is that Poser 2014 is pretty flashy - you know you can get the little balls to bounce in real time and make skittles fall over and things.
:)
Basically what I am saying is that Poser 2014 could be everything that Carrara should have been.
If Daz was on the ball.
With 2014 I'm still expecting to have to fiddle with the sphere zones etc after conforming new clothing - which is a pita.
To me it's Poser's "answer" to genesis but instead of competing with genesis they have gone on a tangent that surprised everyone.
In other words they have targeted a more "professional" market. ( meaning people who want to get
their hands on nuts and bolts)
Which I think is where a lot of Carrara users are at - relative to Daz Studio users .
Tsarist.
Yes I hate poser's window and controls myself but that means I am not familiar with them (maybe I should read the manual!)
Explore Carrara? Ah yes, I have explored a few corners - just for Renders that is all. I am satisfied that I am reasonably proficient
with some aspects of Carrara - meaning wher I personally want to go.
Daz updating Carrara? Yes that is good.
But it appears from their attitude/past history that it is not their priority.
Poser seems to have Poser as it's main priority.
I think there-in lies the Pith.
(whatever a pith is)
EDIt PS Evil, I forgot to say I use Poser 2012 as a plugin in for Carrara, most expensive plug in I have ;)
Now go into Dogwaffle and press "k" for "K'iller plugins. Check out all of the various options there. I'm sure you'll be able to achieve better sketch results using these sort of combinations. The cool thingtoo... is to turn the hue off on your brush, and crank up the bleed through, so your just smearing what's there, without adding new strokes - this could be used to shade with your thumb or fingers as you could with a sketch book. If you don't have one yet, geta decent tablet/stylus. If not, get a cheap one. I have a Wacom Graphire 3, which is no longer made, but was sort of there really affordable, yet decent, popular line back a few years - and it's still a strange divice to me - but Dogwaffle turns the thing into a complete art room filled with acrylics, oils, watercolor, tempra, all of the different lead values of sketch pencils, foil, copper etching, bamboo weaving stuff... oh and a whole airbrush studio too.
The real trick is learning how to access these incredible possibilities. Unfortunately, as excellent as the online documentation is, Dogwaffle really requires those video tutorials with Philips super friendly and informative demonstration style in order to really pop those functions into a clear understanding of what to do in order to achieve this... sort of thing.
Where many other apps might use layers, dogwaffle just uses another brush. Brushes are Dogwaffle - and Dogwaffle is brushes. When in doubt... use a brush. Yu can use any other software to copy something to your clipboard, go to the Dogwaffle brush menu and chose Clipboard >Paste to new brush. Even a high res full image can be done this way. Now you go and store a copy which will give you a temp file and a popup window that can be assmall or large as you'rcomfy with in your work space.
Oooops... I'm babbling...
Heh Dart, not blabbing :)
Ah yes, thanks for The K hint.
I'm happily wacomming away for a few years.
After receiving feedback from my
I've spent an entire week with a few different programs including dogwaffler trying to get the effect I want.
And you know what?
I got the best effects by changing everything in Carrara (all the shaders) before I did my renders - then tidied them up in post.
Fancy that . :)
But it's lot of work with my old scenes - usually around 1 - 1.5 gigabytes.
So with new scenes I make them simple so the work load is not so much.
I combine a few different renders (eg high ambient etc with shadows) in post and make sure I render figures separately so I can treat everything with different levels saturation etc, and also use them as masks for the postwork so I can separate elements with atmosphere and contrast - just as you would when you are painting.
but I really need to be able to take old work and change the "style" without spending an hour or two manipulating the shaders before I render.
thanks for the waffling advice. I posted a few questions on your thread but had no answer that I can see yet.
I had an idea on the way to work today after watching the Poser 2014 videos on cartoon renders which should be doable in Carrara
Have you ever tried compositing your renders using Carrara?
Carrara is immensely powerful for that, as it's acceptable resolutions are, what... limitless?
Render to the final resolution for everthing you render. I'm lucky this way because I always render at 1280 x 720 for my videos.
But the final resolution needs to be the size of the primary backdrop. Then use that as your scene backdrop, before or after any post work. I know you do stills, but you can actually use Dogwaffle to turn a still into an animation, and Carrara lets you use it in nearly anything.
So now you build your next layer. If it's already a render, you can make that the shader of a plane - now you have all the power of the shader channels to manipulate the look of that layer. Lights and shader channels, along with fog, clouds, fire, ocean, light cones, lens flares, auras... Jam that render off and load that into the backdrop and rinse and repeat.
Carrara is a very powerful compositing tool. Add Dogwaffle and you begin to run out of limits. ;-)
Good idea Dart.
Yes I render everything at 12 inches minimum side at 300 dpi.
I've applied my renders to a vertex plane in the past to use as a backdrop but Carrara always seems to reduce their sharpness/contrast as far as I can see.?
Is this what you mean by compositing in Car?
I'm not sure I can see the advantage of doing this in Carrara as opposed to doing it in Photoshop?
Maybe I am missing something :)
wouldn't be the first time!
Oh... Head Wax,
I know that I just recently mentioned to you that I really enjoy your artwork. Well I'm sorry but I have to say it again because of some of your recent posts... Head Wax, man.. I really dig your work! You capture amazing emotion with your tones and shape flows. The arrangements are original and complex- even when they appear simple. I can really see why Philip Staigerman was so excited when he met you. We'll have to Howl and Waffle and submit some cool stufffor them to post in their DotM galleries. The journey of completion will be fun with our wacoms and waffles of canine origin.
Oh... and with the post above, I also enjoy going directly between Dogwaffleand Carrara, compositing with both, back and forth. Use Carrara for atmospheres, fog and other effects, especially for working with 3d objects and scenes. Then use Dogwaffle for painting and applying FX. Remember. Use the brush. When in doubt, store you current brush to a popup, then make a new one with whatever you want to add, and stamp it down or paint with it - to create the look that you want. The above, where I mention smearing... Bristle brushes use particles system to smear with. Very cool. I'm still new to Dogwaffle (and Carrara) too... so I need to keep watch the Daily Dose and glean what I can from it! :)
No... really...
Great artwork, Sir. Fantabulistically kick freaking ankle!
Shoot a render, jam out the values to correct them in PS, bring it into Dogwaffle and paint on it - back into Carrara to cast shadows onto it... perhaps some fog. Nah... let's wait and tweak it in PS first - then add fog using a volumetric cloud with one of Tim Paynes skies for ambiance the sunlight right from Tim's setting, but blast in a fewof my own, and set the clouds to be affected by all of the lights. Now I'll paint an accurate selection in Dogwaffle, and using the AnyFX plugin, make it rain several layers under and behind the cloud, then two or three more suble rain FX in front. Hmmm. Maybe I'll jam out a perspective in Dogwafflenow and make the whole thing a carving I etched into steel. No... bronze. Yeah... that's better. Now I'm going to composte this photo of my lunch tomato that went splat on the ground, so that it's fallen onto this sculpture and broke open. Junk. Undo that. I better save this before I change it any more. I don't know... you got any ideas wherre we go from here? Use it as a height map? Great Idea HW! Why didn't I think of that?!!!
Thank you muchly. Flattery is contagious :)
Ah yes great to see you are excited! image making is what I love. it makes me feel like a didn't waste that particular day of my life.
Mind you this morning I spent a few hours running old renders through PS elements 10's inbuilt filters and combiing them with different parameters ad infinitum - and came up with nothing I liked.
I'll check out cripeman's tut. Thanks for that link.
And I'll check out the anyfx plugin.
and play with the background images etc.!
Here's one for you tut on "find edges" halfway down this page. It could be used with dogwaffler. http://www.gertrudisgraphics.com/tutorials.
To "Find" your edges again after losing them with a oiled up brush or similar.
Poser causing the demise of carrara is like the Edsel causing the demise of the Corvette.
Poser is for figures, carrara is for everything.
For cell shaded toon style it's hard to beat YAtoon. If you can find it. Not sure where it is being hosted right now.
In order for Poser to be competition for carrara you would have to add Vue and wings3d to it. Maybe even iclone.
Head wax. Spend some time using the plant generator. Also check DAZ's realistic leaves for the plant generator. Howie can't do any more with it then you can, he just knows how to. ;)
None the less, for the cost, I'd spend the money on animate 2 and the clothing control plugin for Studio before I spent it on Poser. I'd rather expand the tools I have then add another to learn to use.
Yes, I agree. It is not a 1-1 pixel copy no matter how carefully you try to construct the scene. It's easy to spot the difference even without zooming in on pixels though. Always better off compositing in post unfortunately....
you can always stick your image in the backdrop to set up and render your scene,
then render with alpha so you can add it as a crisp sharp layer afterwards (in Gimp in my case) or in Photo$hop.
I gotta agree with Stan on this. And it's another illustration of how if we had better presets, there wouldn't be all this angst from folks who can't figure things out. Howie took the time to figure out how to take it to another level. That means it can be done. I have a feeling that the same applies to many of the other presets. I think more heavy experimenting should always be the advice given unless someone truly has hit the wall, or until we get better presets that don't leave the impression that Carrara's version of doing things is not up to par. Too often, that's the wrong impression. Then someone spends some money for something else to only learn they could've done it in Carrara if the presets were better or if they really took the time to figure it out.
yeah it's the same alive like hex and bryce.
no against the new PoserP2014 carrara = dying.
from my personal opinion, daz don't have the developing time anymore to keep 2 big programs up against other software in 3d world.
you have to be blind to see that.
and carrara against Blender today, oh boy do i need to spread anymore words?
I gotta agree with Stan on this. And it's another illustration of how if we had better presets, there wouldn't be all this angst from folks who can't figure things out. Howie took the time to figure out how to take it to another level. That means it can be done. I have a feeling that the same applies to many of the other presets. I think more heavy experimenting should always be the advice given unless someone truly has hit the wall, or until we get better presets that don't leave the impression that Carrara's version of doing things is not up to par. Too often, that's the wrong impression. Then someone spends some money for something else to only learn they could've done it in Carrara if the presets were better or if they really took the time to figure it out.
It's not entirely the presets fault. You have to have an idea of what you want to do, and the patience to do it. I wanted to make a weeping willow tree. I looked at the willow preset and fiddled with it and could get close to what I wanted, but not quite. So I tried the Burr Oak preset (which looks great BTW, if you swap in a better texture of the trunk) and was able to get the shape I wanted. It was then fairly simple to swap the oak leaves for willow leaves.
I watched the video. There is nothing new there that Carrara doesnt have or has access to. Plus it still poser you cant make model changes or add objects without 3rd party software. Plus, what model will it use V4. Seems like a waist to me.
It's not entirely the presets fault. You have to have an idea of what you want to do, and the patience to do it. I wanted to make a weeping willow tree. I looked at the willow preset and fiddled with it and could get close to what I wanted, but not quite. So I tried the Burr Oak preset (which looks great BTW, if you swap in a better texture of the trunk) and was able to get the shape I wanted. It was then fairly simple to swap the oak leaves for willow leaves.
True, it's not entirely the presets fault... I often fault lazy users more. But better presets would stop some of the lesser experienced or lazy users from spouting the nonsense they often do and the posts that say Carrara can't do this or adequately do that. When you do a search trying to find what Carrara can or can't do or how to do it in Google, nonsense and wrong information comes up way too often. It takes a long time to find out what's right or wrong. Even experienced users have posted nonsense in some posts I dug through recently. I just shake my head.
edit: Nice Pic, Evil!!
I was more than excited with the new PP 2014's new features and I plan on upgrading, but it only adds another dimension to my work flow. I think that the DS-Carrara-Poser is a good three-some and continue to use all three! Just my 2 cents worth. :)
Thank you muchly. Flattery is contagious :)
Ah yes great to see you are excited! image making is what I love. it makes me feel like a didn't waste that particular day of my life.
Mind you this morning I spent a few hours running old renders through PS elements 10's inbuilt filters and combiing them with different parameters ad infinitum - and came up with nothing I liked.
I'll check out cripeman's tut. Thanks for that link.
And I'll check out the anyfx plugin.
and play with the background images etc.!
Here's one for you tut on "find edges" halfway down this page. It could be used with dogwaffler. http://www.gertrudisgraphics.com/tutorials.
To "Find" your edges again after losing them with a oiled up brush or similar.Wow. Thanks!
AnyFX is illustrated a small bit in the Dogwaffle videos. But when you start to dig into what else it does is where you start to find the magic. It is a digital grading filter pack with many types of grading from colors and their hues to blurs and sharpens, various ways to change where in the picture the effects do what... hard to explain but much easier to see and get used to once you start playing with it.
I saw an Adobe Elements combo pack - PS and Premier. It was really cheap - what exactly is "Elements"?
As for you art... yeah... I speak the truth
Obj is what I'll export as into Poser in most cases.
My copy Poser Pro 2010 & Poser Pro 2012 both do one thing that Carrara doesn't do and I'm very glad that Carrara doesn't do and that is crash very often. I got sick of using 2010 and almost never use it and my 2012 I think I've only used about 6 times because of the crashing.
I also don't like working with Poser's lights. I can light a scene 10 times quicker in Daz Studio and about 5-8 times quicker in Carrara.
Poser does have some things built into it that you need to have a separate plugin for Carrara to do, that I would like to see Carrara be able to do.
Smith Micro I think tends to sell Poser as more of a plugin for other 3D apps. Smith Micro actually was giving Poser Pro 2012 away with Lightwave last year for example.
I'll most likely end up buying Poser just because Smith Micro is making the program integrate even more closely with the other software they make and it will be easier to bring something into Poser first before bringing it into one of the other program. Poser has for me just become a plugin for other programs I use.
The next big release Smith Micro has planned this year is Manga Studio 5 EX. They totally rewrote all the code I understand and I think they are planning release to go with the Comic Con in California.
I've used Hex and found it to not like my computer that much. A few things like the ability to create 3D text doesn't work right on my system.
For NPR with Carrara the Parchment plugin is another good plugin to use I've found.
http://www.digitalcarversguild.com/plugin.php?ProductId=9
The free sand plugin might be worth checking out too.
One thing I have noticed is that very little exists in the way of English tutorials on doing NPR renders in Carrara, most of the sites I saw that had any info on doing this were in Japanese. The few English tutorials just covered very basic explanation of doing a NPR. So maybe what is needed is some good tutorials on NPR and more tutorials on using plugins like Parchment, YAToon,
(Right now I'm trying to translate and go through a Tooning tutorial I found for Carrara on a Japanese site that covered a lot of stuff.)
ManStan,
YAToon is at the Carrara Cafe all the version of it that were made of it can be downloaded. I definitely agree with your post on Carrara & Poser.