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OpenSubDiv Testing and Discussion Thread

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  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    I don't think DAZ would implement Ptex in Hex, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. OpenSubDiv is another matter entirely. OpenSubDiv could significantly re-invigorate that software.

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 798
    edited April 2013

    Why not?

    I would have never believed DAZ would implement either in Studio.

    I think that would be the next logical step. To implement a way for it's users to create the needed resources to coincide with it's flagship product with it's subsidiary products (especially, "bridged" products).

    Hex already needs a fixing of it's crippled paint module, and brought up to at least Carrara 7 standards.

    Since Ptex is open-sourced code allowed to be implemented into commercial software, why wouldn't DAZ try to work it into the next version of Hex (if there ever is a next version)?

    Hell, if one man, Andrew Shpagin, can implement it into his software, why couldn't a whole team working at DAZ?

    I know, I know... Andrew is a "super-coder", and has a little help, but for the most part he does the coding himself.

    Even if DAZ has no inclination to do so, it is now going on my wish list of things I would like to see in Hex3 (including RAMWolff's want of a Shrinkwrap Modifier).

    Post edited by DaremoK3 on
  • prixatprixat Posts: 1,585
    edited December 1969

    I don't think DAZ have changed the rendertime subdivision in this beta.
    The renderer is still fixed at 3 subdivisions and ignores the 1 subdivision setting you had for the preview.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    It's good to know 3D Coat supports Ptex. Thank you Daremok.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited April 2013

    here's another reason to hope Ptex solves certain problems, this is a persistent one. I was testing out a simple model I made of a Mini Mag Light, and the UVS on the edges gets this distortion. Was trying out Displacement mapping... The barrel is 8 polys around, subdivided to level 1 with OSD catmark subdiv. The exact same results from Catmull-Clark.

    UVSedgedistortion.jpg
    504 x 603 - 39K
    Post edited by wancow on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited April 2013

    I wish I had the link to the presentation I saw on these. They made the two seem like the dynamic duo that would revolutionize 3d graphics, and basically said as much. I've been around long enough to know how long it can take to implement something this ambitious, if ever though, so I wasn't holding my breath (similar to ubiquitous, robust, standardized 3d in web browsers.) They point to the future at some point either way and that is exciting :)

    The fact that DAZ is incorporating it into DS is promising. If they can capitalize on it to provide a good central format while also handling managing native formats, while cleaning up their catalog program, they could have a very nice app with a foot firmly in the future. Add-ons that handled things like project management would go a long ways towards getting them more scalability, but only if the fundamentals were more rock solid.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Gedd, is this the one you're talking about? http://vimeo.com/55032699

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    Interesting, yes this is it but I believe the version I saw was an earlier version of the same presentation. Thanks, I'm going to go through it again either way (and save the link this time.) :)

  • cwichuracwichura Posts: 1,042
    edited December 1969

    One of my worries is that despite having DAZ implementing technologies like OpenSubDiv and Ptex, most content creators won't use it because Poser is still the 500lbs gorilla that they all target and if it works in Studio well bonus, but if it doesn't, they don't care.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    It's highly likely Poser devs are working furiously to implement both, if they have not already... They already have at the very least an Alpha program, if not a Beta for the next version of Poser. I have that on good authority.

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited April 2013

    See, for me.. if they handle it well I believe they could totally outgrow the Poser style market and thus leave Poser far behind. Poser in the way they approach things are firmly rooted in the hobbiest market I believe, whereas DAZ is set to move forward into a larger market that can span both casual users and small to mid sized production houses as this market is destined to evolve. Just my take, only time will tell.

    One of Poser's limitations is it's interface, they can't overcome that really. Not that it's not a good interface for what it is, just that I don't see it fitting into the larger market. I'm also not suggesting that DAZ's current interface is so much better then Posers. It is more a matter of preference as it stands now. Where DAZ has the advantage is that it is coming from a much more flexible base for implementing both interfaces that are more in line with industry standard interfaces, and providing more customizable options for people to set up the interface to their own needs.

    My very subjective opinion is that they can't put off sorting out the file/folder substructure as it won't stand up in a more demanding environment in it's current state. A good example of this is if someone were to try to develop an add-on for project management. Something that will be in demand in even small production houses with multiple people. With the current structure it would be all but impossible to develop in a way that would be cost effective or robust.

    If managed well, with Genesis, I believe DAZ even has the potential to serve as a cost effective solution for quick, inexpensive stock to large houses at some point, and that market could be huge provided they come up with a licensing structure that would take into account Hollywood level uses of the product in a way that would be beneficial to all concerned, without killing off their current market.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi Ken...

    DaremoK3 said:
    Great discussion. Very enlightening...

    Just for the sake of clarity for those reading this thread I would like to make a correction (sorry, nicci).

    The Blender Ptex development was by Nicholas Bishop, and put on the back burner in favor of his baby, Sculpt in Blender. He was working to implement dynamic sculpting to his sculpt module. He is the original author of the sculpt module which was originally a stand-alone open-source program named SharpConstruct.

    I've never seen any evidence of him helping on coding of Cycles, nor believe he would have the time (with all his ongoing projects).

    ooops.... :red: you're right, I got my names crossed.... I have been reading many articles lately on Cycles, sculpting, painting, subd.... and one about the 2.66 development had both Nicholas Bishop and Sergey Sharybin mentioned in it regarding what they were working on and I had just read an old blog on the Ptex work.... so I got Sergeys' work on Cycles mixed up with Nicholas work on Dynotopo and Ptex...

    sorry for my confusion and thanks for correcting it... :)

    As to DAZ adding OSD and Ptex to a future version Hex, why not? If the code is easily addaptable to Hex I would think it would be a no-brainer to incorporate those features.... thus giving users a more complete pipeline with DAZ software...

    I would think though that memory management and platform stability would be essential for both DS and Hex to take full advantage of using Ptex with OSD..... since OSD has a very heavy base in GPU rendering to provide real-time display of Ptex displacement in the viewport...

    I did some quick tests of Blender SubD meshes to DS and OSD late last night... sorry no pics... and I have some early results...

    While Blender SubD works pretty well with the legacy CC subd in DS, there are some slight differences with OSD catmark, but they seem to only be present in the OGL viewport display... the 3Delight renders were perfect... now the differences could have been related to the model itself, but I will need to look into that further...

    Also, were in Blender you can get pretty wild with the SubD cage on a very low poly mesh, that same low poly mesh using OSD catmark can become very messy.... an example would be, the cage in Blender can have over-lapping or crossed edges and verts while keeping a clean sub-division, but that same base mesh in OSD becomes a mess because of the over-lapping edges and verts... now obviously you don't normally what a mesh that is that messy to begin with, but sometimes it happens when modeling in SubD and you don't notice...

    One test I did was a very low poly jacket for Genesis, only 1140 faces... with standard CC SubD of 2 it smoothed but did not quite match the shape of the Hi-poly version of the jacket... with OSD catmark SubD of 2... it matched the Hi-poly version exactly....

    I'll definitely need to see what else I can do with this...

    nicci.... :)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    If managed well, with Genesis, I believe DAZ even has the potential to serve as a cost effective solution for quick, inexpensive stock to large houses at some point, and that market could be huge provided they come up with a licensing structure that would take into account Hollywood level uses of the product in a way that would be beneficial to all concerned, without killing off their current market.

    The development of Species very much lends weight to your argument.

    http://exocortex.com/products/species

  • DaremoK3DaremoK3 Posts: 798
    edited December 1969

    Hi nicci,

    Sorry, I know you know your stuff, and are quintessential for helping people out in the forums. Did not mean to step on your toes. Just wanted to make sure people were getting the correct info out there. We'll chock it up to you being seriously overworked. Time for a mini-vacation with a hot bubble-bath, and a smooth libation?

    Like you, I did some mesh smoothing comparisons with a model I created in Wings3D. My results were congruent with your own. Surprising, the OSD Catmark algorithm yielded an exact match to the one level Sub-D CC in W3D, but the (legacy) CC in DS proved inaccurate. Go figure...


    Gedd:

    You're welcome, and very insightful post. I believe DAZ can transform this, and their business model to a more professional level, but they still have a long road ahead of them. Not to mention, the need to stop fumbling, so they can be taken seriously on that level.

    wancow:

    Not sure if this is a solution. I have never mapped, and textured for Sub-D meshes. All my work is done on polygon finals. But, as far as displacement for OSD meshes, and Ptex being a possible solution, have a look at the link below. It appears Ptex is using (or can use) 32 bit color vector displacement opposed to grey-scale traditional displacement:

    http://renderman.pixar.com/view/vector-displacements

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi Ken...

    Don't worry... you didn't hurt my toes... :lol: I always tell everyone to please let me know when I make a boo-boo....

    But your pretty spot on about the over-worked part.... long days at the job mean my only free time to work on 3D is the really late night early morning hours.... I really do need a vacation, it's been over ten years since my last long vacation.... a day here and there just doesn't cut it....

    hmm.... bubble bath sounds really good right now... but I'm at work... >:( :down:

    What has me curious about using Ptex in DS is if it is only going to be a rendertime feature, or will we get to have the benefits of the viewport GPU acceleration for realtime viewing of displacement....

    nicci... :)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    niccipb said:

    What has me curious about using Ptex in DS is if it is only going to be a rendertime feature, or will we get to have the benefits of the viewport GPU acceleration for realtime viewing of displacement....

    nicci... :)

    Oh, the Displacement Viewing is PTex??? Okay, thought it was OSD...

    Ken, I'll get to that video later, I'm busy learning MAYA today :)

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    wancow said:
    niccipb said:

    What has me curious about using Ptex in DS is if it is only going to be a rendertime feature, or will we get to have the benefits of the viewport GPU acceleration for realtime viewing of displacement....

    nicci... :)

    Oh, the Displacement Viewing is PTex??? Okay, thought it was OSD...

    Ken, I'll get to that video later, I'm busy learning MAYA today :)

    I think it is both actually.... Ptex provides the high detailed seamless image information (color, displacement) and OSD provides the sub-divided mesh and the GPU acceleration...

    That's at least what I have gathered so far... I could be mistaken on the details though.... this is all new territory here in DAZland... ;-)

    But since DS has both being integrated, it would only seem natural to have that functionality at some point...

    nicci... :)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    niccipb said:
    this is all new territory here in DAZland... ;-)

    Can you spell: "Understatement?"

    But since DS has both being integrated, it would only seem natural to have that functionality at some point...

    nicci... :)

    Sure hope that's true!

    Made the mistake of telling a couple of Poser users that Poser will be obsolete till it gets some kind of Subdiv, and OSD would be the best way for it to get that, boy I might as well have murdered their first child...

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited April 2013

    Got this note from Neil Blevins, red text is what I wrote him:

    Neil, I may have failed to mention that the DAZ implentation is still in Alpha stage. For now, we only have the ability to change one edge or vert at a time, which is severely limiting. I'm hoping we get to be able to select mutiple edges.

    Yes, that is indeed incredibly limiting. But it is alpha, so understandable.


    You are correct about integers. That's what we're currently limited to. If you're interested in seeing it: this is the thread where we've been discussing what we're seeing in it... needless to say, I've been corrected more than once.

    Quite a spirited thread, glad to see all the interest.

    One more note, I also have some articles on ptex if you're interested in reading:

    http://www.neilblevins.com/cg_education/ptex/ptex.htm
    http://www.neilblevins.com/cg_education/ptex_mudbox/ptex_mudbox.htm

    I don't know a lot about licensing, but yes, ptex is disney feature animation, and Opensubdiv is Pixar, we are related (and we use ptex here at Pixar), but we are run as separate groups.

    - Neil

    Post edited by wancow on
  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited April 2013

    Hi wancow...

    That's great that you have been able to have a dialog with Neil Blevins and the extra info that he has shared... He even took the time to read the thread... :cheese:

    BTW... you do know that you can change the weights on several verts and edges at the same time... ;-)

    nicci... :)

    edit: spelling

    Post edited by niccipb on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    noooo... I did not know that! How you do thaat????

    Neil has been amazing. It seems to me this is something he genuinely believes in. I didn't realize he still works for Pixar, and I've been taking his precious time up :) Which reminds me, I need to thank him for that email...

    Just (legally) got a free licence for Maya 2014... and I need to dive into modelling, so I may be away for a few days, or I may pop in and out, but I'm trying to learn the modeller and that's going to demand a lot of my time.

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    wancow said:
    noooo... I did not know that! How you do thaat????

    I'm was kind of surprised you didn't know... just select all of the polys that you want to influence, they should then be listed in the Tools pane.... then in the Tools pane just group select all of the edge pairs and/or vertices you want to assign a weight to (use Shift or Ctrl) they should all show the dots in the viewport.... then Right-click on any part of the high-lighted selection in the Tools pane and you should see a context menu pop up with two options... I forget at the moment what they are called, but I believe the first one will give you a new window to input a weight value for the selected verts....

    Just (legally) got a free licence for Maya 2014... and I need to dive into modelling, so I may be away for a few days, or I may pop in and out, but I'm trying to learn the modeller and that's going to demand a lot of my time.

    How lucky are you... :cheese: have fun... I'm sure you will...

    nicci... :)

  • Curved DesignCurved Design Posts: 61
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    Got this note from Neil Blevins, red text is what I wrote him:

    Neil, I may have failed to mention that the DAZ implentation is still in Alpha stage. For now, we only have the ability to change one edge or vert at a time, which is severely limiting. I'm hoping we get to be able to select mutiple edges.

    Yes, that is indeed incredibly limiting. But it is alpha, so understandable.


    You are correct about integers. That's what we're currently limited to. If you're interested in seeing it: this is the thread where we've been discussing what we're seeing in it... needless to say, I've been corrected more than once.

    Quite a spirited thread, glad to see all the interest.

    One more note, I also have some articles on ptex if you're interested in reading:

    http://www.neilblevins.com/cg_education/ptex/ptex.htm
    http://www.neilblevins.com/cg_education/ptex_mudbox/ptex_mudbox.htm

    I don't know a lot about licensing, but yes, ptex is disney feature animation, and Opensubdiv is Pixar, we are related (and we use ptex here at Pixar), but we are run as separate groups.

    - Neil

    For those that previously mentioned that Blender would need to be in their DAZ OpenSubDiv workflow...

    Ton tweeted that Blender is getting OpenSubDiv this summer.

    https://twitter.com/tonroosendaal/status/465925083572494336

    It seems to be in the very early stages and there are a lot of challenges to overcome!

    http://code.blender.org/index.php/2014/05/opensubdiv-gpu-tessellation-wip/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzIl_S-qHIQ&

    http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?331486-OpenSubDiv-Can-we-have-this-please-(video-in-post)/page4

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