What Does Daz Need to do Next?

nelsonsmithnelsonsmith Posts: 1,148
edited December 2017 in The Commons

With the new integration with MAYA, and D-force, how much more does Daz need to do before people stop saying that it's still only amateur level software?  Nevermind that some artists were getting professional quality results even before those additions.


*I'll also add that IMHO a lot of people fail to realize that becoming a professional at anything comes from developing skill and technique and not necessarily the tools you use.  Shakespeare did not have a word processor, but it doesn't mean he was less a professional for using quill and ink.

Post edited by nelsonsmith on
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Comments

  • scott762_948aec318ascott762_948aec318a Posts: 874
    edited December 2017

    We will continue to be the red-headed step children of the 3D for the forseeable future.  Oh well!  laugh

     

    * No offense meant to any red-headed stepchildren.

    Post edited by scott762_948aec318a on
  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 2,537

    I think it's because it attracts hobbyists and it's free. 

    Some "Professionals" can be rather snooty and view any software that invites the riff-raff into their realm as bothersome.

    On the other hand, real professionals view different software as tools and evaluate them based on strong and weak points, not cost or who tends to use it the most.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 6,226

    Its funny, you have new users coming here that have access to Maya, Max, C4d, etc for free either from school or pirated and don't think anything of it. Then you have legit high end software users that actually think of those apps as high end software, which they are, and view lower priced or free apps such as DS as inferior and as such usually set the industry standard way of thinking. While it is true that a true professional is based on results and not the tools he uses, until DS has more tools and is able to do more than just rendering and animation it will always be lacking from the apps like Maya and Max that can do it all and usually better.

    People that use DS and have never modeled anything have no clue how mindblowing it is that all this mesh works together as it does inside DS. DS is the ultimate smart app when it comes to combining mesh (figures - clothing - hair - etc). In true modeling apps you actually have to manipulate the mesh to combine things. There is no autofit or specific generations working with another generation, it is all just mesh, faces and vertices. It is this tech inside DS and the content that Daz provides that makes DS so special. Without it, DS would be just another specialized free renderer. I honestly believe if DS had better IMPORT options, you would have more people using it because it would open up more options for users other than what Daz provides in the way of DS specific content. Too many new users come here for the content only to try and get it to work in other apps. They need to make DS more attractive so that new users come here for it.

  • PadonePadone Posts: 520

    It all depends on the final result you look for.

    For producing still pictures from pre-made content DAZ Studio is already at a professional level in my opinion. You have to use Photoshop for fx such as fluids and fire or smoke but that's ok for still pictures to have some post-processing with a paint program.

    If we talk about animation and fx then there's a lot to do yet to reach Blender and Maya.

  • What formats do we really need that aren't proprietary to one company or other? I suspect that DAZ has thought about some others but doesn't feel the licensing costs of supporting 3DS Max or MAYA native formats is worth it, since so many things that are distributed in those formats are also available in Wavefront Object format.

  • PadonePadone Posts: 520

    In my opinion obj and dae/fbx are good for general purpose export. I'm fine with them in Blender. Then some adjusting is required for rigging and materials but the gross work is there. A total different goal is to export to another application with a pre-made rig and converted materials. From what I can read in the asset page this is what the Maya plugin does.

  • ebergerlyebergerly Posts: 2,384
    If I'm any indication, having access to professional tools doesn't automatically give me talent. I can make a mess with any tool. Someone with talent can do great things with poor tools. Maybe some are looking at skill and talent levels in the Poser DAZ community, rather than tools. Is there a lot of skill and talent?
  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 2,090

    Judging from the title of the thread, I thought this would be where we offer suggestions about what we, as users, would like to see Daz add: (for me, it's proper animation tools and support). However, it seems the question being asked is: What must Daz do to be considered legitimate by professionals? To which my answer is the same, with the addition of updating and debugging Hexagon.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 3,618
    xyer0 said:

    Judging from the title of the thread, I thought this would be where we offer suggestions about what we, as users, would like to see Daz add: (for me, it's proper animation tools and support). However, it seems the question being asked is: What must Daz do to be considered legitimate by professionals? To which my answer is the same, with the addition of updating and debugging Hexagon.

    Well according to DAZ_Steve, they are already working on the last of your points (ie Hexagon update)

  • ItsCeoItsCeo Posts: 408

    With the new integration with MAYA, and D-force, how much more does Daz need to do before people stop saying that it's still only amateur level software?  Nevermind that some artists were getting professional quality results even before those additions.


    *I'll also add that IMHO a lot of people fail to realize that becoming a professional at anything comes from developing skill and technique and not necessarily the tools you use.  Shakespeare did not have a word processor, but it doesn't mean he was less a professional for using quill and ink.

    The front page to Daz says.... “...accurate character tolerances made Daz a go-to solution on CAPTAIN AMERICA, THOR, and IRON MAN.” - RON MENDELL Sounds pretty professional to me. Who actually cares what other people say anyway. The results are what matters. Is a client going to ask if you used Photoshop or Gimp or whatever else is out there or are they going to cares about on-time results at the quoted price? As for Shakespeare, I think he is overrated. Really, all he did was transcribe plays from their original Klingon...
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 2017
    ItsCeo said:

    With the new integration with MAYA, and D-force, how much more does Daz need to do before people stop saying that it's still only amateur level software?  Nevermind that some artists were getting professional quality results even before those additions.


    *I'll also add that IMHO a lot of people fail to realize that becoming a professional at anything comes from developing skill and technique and not necessarily the tools you use.  Shakespeare did not have a word processor, but it doesn't mean he was less a professional for using quill and ink.

     

    The front page to Daz says.... “...accurate character tolerances made Daz a go-to solution on CAPTAIN AMERICA, THOR, and IRON MAN.” - RON MENDELL Sounds pretty professional to me.

    Depends what you're working on. Ron Mendell looks to be mostly a props and set designer. I believe he used the characters as bases to build his designs over, or for scale, etc, and it looks like he overdrew "character designs" in his own style. This is generally considered "professional." No reason someone has to create their own bases to be a concept artist. See example: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sjJV_duxVQw/UZTdUMReI5I/AAAAAAAAcuE/lrsmzeZ-IXI/s1600/Ron-Mendell-Iron-man-3-headset_0013.jpg

    Post edited by agent unawares on
  • Autodesk just paid off 1300 employees last month, so I think DAZ Studio is doing pretty good !

  • Daz should enable VR support on their software so we can look at scenes and models in VR. I just got the Oculus Rift with touch controlers and it is fun. The black friday price finally brought the price down to where I could talk myself into buying a pair of googles. Oh, if you are prone to seasickness I would just stick to games and stuff you can sit and enjoy. I also got a floor foot pedal that you can use in anything not just VR it is like the 3D SpaceMouse from Connexion but for your feet. But looking around in VR is cool. If you can't afford the glasses just go demo them or find a place in the Mall that rents them out they are worth it to try out.

  • Does that stigma really exist?, and where do you see it?

    The only times I've seen mention of people looking down on Daz is in threads like these or by people new to the industry,certainly not from people who have been around for a while.I've spoken with many art directors and artists who have no issue at all with what software is used and I'm often surprised by how many of them use Daz figures in their work,

    I do see people looking down on bad art and that is a valid argument,but all software is capable of bad art when placed in the right/wrong hands.

     

    McGyver said:

    I think it's because it attracts hobbyists and it's free. 

    Some "Professionals" can be rather snooty and view any software that invites the riff-raff into their realm as bothersome.

    On the other hand, real professionals view different software as tools and evaluate them based on strong and weak points, not cost or who tends to use it the most.

     

  • Syrus_DanteSyrus_Dante Posts: 663
    edited December 2017

    Maybe my point of view is allready a bit narrowed because I use DazStudio as the primary app for doing still scenes as a hobby, while Blender and ZBrush are the tools I use to get things working in DS. Im no professional artist in any of these programs and I feel like allways scratching just the surface of all the things that can be done - but I know the strong and the weak areas of these programs that I discovered so far and I can decide which tool serves me the best to reach my goal in mind and I dont like to make compromises.

    But I see so many things that needs a polish in DazStudio - for me its not a question of what functions needs to get add to DazStudio but what functions need a rework / polish so they do what they should do - and
    I dont think of iRay or dForce.

    1. the Interface (eg. Pane Groups issues - Docking issues - Scene pane issues with drag&drop to reparent - try this with a huge list of scene elements that dosnt fit in the list view and things get unpredictable)

    2. the Actions Naming (why it says "Clear Figure" and on the other hand "Clear Selected Item" and BTW why do I have to take care of using the right action acording to my selection)

    3. Add a few actions (scripts) that are essential to simple tasks to work efficent (by accident I found a snapParent script in my Utilities folder - I tryed it on Props but then it says no figure detected - then if I want to reparent things with "snap to" I allways have to make shure Parent Items In Place is off - Parent in Place would also be shorter - or I have to find a 3rd party script that does these simple but essential things)

    4. Actualy what is the first thing that comes through my mind, even if it has been mentioned before, is the weakness of the IK-system that is currently almost useless. If I see all the advanded armature handles on these specialized figure rigs in Blender I wish we could have at least somthing similar in DazStudio. I allready tryed to create such armatures in DS but then the ERC-Freeze funtion tricked me with what I thought was a feature was a bug - linking Props transforms with figure pose controlls - it was possible in DS v4.8 untill you closed and opened DS again.

    Example of a working IK + Armature system usage (no pose controlls are needed) + Muscles system (that can aid JCM) - See this video https://youtu.be/zupmxmAR2Sg

    5. right behind this is the Point At function that keeps crashing DazStudio if you try to change the target

    Sooner or later the people get frustraded by all these issues and limitations and will search for alternatives.

     

     

    Post edited by Syrus_Dante on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,979
    McGyver said:

    I think it's because it attracts hobbyists and it's free. 

    Some "Professionals" can be rather snooty and view any software that invites the riff-raff into their realm as bothersome.

    On the other hand, real professionals view different software as tools and evaluate them based on strong and weak points, not cost or who tends to use it the most.

    ...QFT. 

    I like to consider myself as having been a professional (albeit starving) artist in the traditional media and find programmes like Daz, Carrara, Vue, and Hexagon just another media to work with.  For myself ease of use is very important as well as cost as it makes the transition from pencils, pens, and brushes to moving pixels about simpler.  Daz's flagship programme has "grown up" quite a bit from when I first encountered it over a decade ago.

    "Professionalism" isn't based on how expensive, flashy, or complex the tools you use are, but how you work with the tools you have at hand.

  • FixmypcmikeFixmypcmike Posts: 17,301
    2. the Actions Naming (why it says "Clear Figure" and on the other hand "Clear Selected Item" and BTW why do I have to take care of using the right action acording to my selection)

    I'm not following this -- sometimes you want to perform an action (e.g. zeroing pose) on just the selected bones rather than on the whole figure.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 28,979
    edited December 2017
    Padone said:

    It all depends on the final result you look for.

    For producing still pictures from pre-made content DAZ Studio is already at a professional level in my opinion. You have to use Photoshop for fx such as fluids and fire or smoke but that's ok for still pictures to have some post-processing with a paint program.

    If we talk about animation and fx then there's a lot to do yet to reach Blender and Maya.

    ...Daz is already heading in that direction by moving from Tri-Ax to a more general form of weight mapping and introducing dForce.  Carrara is a bit more ahead of the game when it comes to animation, dynamics soft body physics and particles. What is needed is a improved compatibility between the two programmes (like a Daz to Carrara bridge).

    The situation is without that academic discount, not many here can afford Maya so whe have to do the best with what we have.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 1,628
    McGyver said:

    I think it's because it attracts hobbyists and it's free. 

    Some "Professionals" can be rather snooty and view any software that invites the riff-raff into their realm as bothersome.

    On the other hand, real professionals view different software as tools and evaluate them based on strong and weak points, not cost or who tends to use it the most.

     

    Does that stigma really exist?, and where do you see it?

    The only times I've seen mention of people looking down on Daz is in threads like these or by people new to the industry,certainly not from people who have been around for a while.I've spoken with many art directors and artists who have no issue at all with what software is used and I'm often surprised by how many of them use Daz figures in their work,

    I do see people looking down on bad art and that is a valid argument,but all software is capable of bad art when placed in the right/wrong hands.

    I have come across the stigma in the comic book industry for sure, @Stonemason. Though, to be fair, 3D in general is looked down upon as far as comics go (because we all have never seen any poor hand-drawn comics, right?). They're all just trying to justify their own existence (cost) and protect their own market because they feel threatened.

    I have to laugh when people look at my NPR work and say "Oh yeah - I've got a Photoshop filter that will do that." Really? Please show me where because I would love to buy it! Probably should have done so rather than spending the last 20+ years of my life developing it, eh?

    Let the haters hate, lol.

    - Greg

  • Syrus_DanteSyrus_Dante Posts: 663
    edited December 2017

    @ Fixmypcmike

    Why not Clear Figure : Clear Item or even better Clear Selected - imagine you could use Zero, Memorize, Restore, Clear on whatever is selected in the scene pane - instead of remember now i Ctrl+select both legs these are parts of a figure but now I have to make shure to use maybe "clear selected items" to clear all keyframes for these from the timeline. And before that I set the timeline range to maybe frame 120 to 200 and thought Clear should delete just this range - but no it does delete all keyframes for the selection from the timeline and ignores the range that I have set.

    Post edited by Syrus_Dante on
  • I have to laugh when people look at my NPR work and say "Oh yeah - I've got a Photoshop filter that will do that." Really? Please show me where because I would love to buy it!

    They're probably thinking of Fractalius.

  • PetercatPetercat Posts: 1,823
    kyoto kid said:
     

    "Professionalism" isn't based on how expensive, flashy, or complex the tools you use are, but how you work with the tools you have at hand.

    BRA-effin'-VOH!
    BRAVO!

  • RuphussRuphuss Posts: 2,241

    professionel means you get paid for your work

    nothing more

    and has nothing to do with quality

  • drzapdrzap Posts: 668

    As a still photos virtual photography studio, Daz is already professional quality.  There is no other product that does this better. This is the market aim for Daz Studio, as far as I can see.  Animation seems just to be tacked on to aid in that process.  There is (and shouldn't be) no comparison to apps like Blender and Maya, which were created for another purpose.  Daz Studio falls flat in comparison to those products in animation in the same way that they would fail in comparison to Daz for still virtual photography.  I finally learned to just accept it.  Use each product for what it can do and don't expect it to do more than what it was designed for.

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 2,537
    edited December 2017

    Does that stigma really exist?, and where do you see it?

    The only times I've seen mention of people looking down on Daz is in threads like these or by people new to the industry,certainly not from people who have been around for a while.I've spoken with many art directors and artists who have no issue at all with what software is used and I'm often surprised by how many of them use Daz figures in their work,

    I do see people looking down on bad art and that is a valid argument,but all software is capable of bad art when placed in the right/wrong hands.

     

    McGyver said:

    I think it's because it attracts hobbyists and it's free. 

    Some "Professionals" can be rather snooty and view any software that invites the riff-raff into their realm as bothersome.

    On the other hand, real professionals view different software as tools and evaluate them based on strong and weak points, not cost or who tends to use it the most.

     

    Where I'd see it was if I were to  talk to someone (in person) who went to school for CG or ID, then you'd tend to get a kind of disinterested or dismissive attitude, whereas someone who was mostly self taught or has started their own business tends to be neutral or at least express some curiosity.

    I used to try and mention DAZ in CG related conversation, sort of to keep with old EULA to promise to "tell people about it", but in all the years I think only maybe one person has maybe even looked into it... I pretty much stopped bothering to mention it by the second release of version 4...

    You see a totally different attitude if you mention Bryce... That was a high end (or at least fairly sophisticated) bit of software once and some people get nostalgic over it.   With Bryce I've had people surprised that it's still around and I'm pretty sure at least two people picked it up when it was free back a few years ago, and at least two others probably bought it for whatever it was going for at the time, based on the enthusiasm, interest and the fact they looked it up while I was there.

    Also age seems to matter too... Older then early forties seems to be more uninterested, late twenties more receptive.

    These are mostly people in industrial design, I have far few reasons or occasions anymore to meet with anyone who is strictly CG unless it's mostly Photoshop based ad or catalog stuff.

    Post edited by McGyver on
  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,283
    edited December 2017

    CG Society is where I remember the most resistance - especially modelers - the not very good ones. The good ones were selling their models and didn't have anything bad to say.

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • drzapdrzap Posts: 668
    McGyver said:

    Does that stigma really exist?, and where do you see it?

    The only times I've seen mention of people looking down on Daz is in threads like these or by people new to the industry,certainly not from people who have been around for a while.I've spoken with many art directors and artists who have no issue at all with what software is used and I'm often surprised by how many of them use Daz figures in their work,

    I do see people looking down on bad art and that is a valid argument,but all software is capable of bad art when placed in the right/wrong hands.

     

    McGyver said:

    I think it's because it attracts hobbyists and it's free. 

    Some "Professionals" can be rather snooty and view any software that invites the riff-raff into their realm as bothersome.

    On the other hand, real professionals view different software as tools and evaluate them based on strong and weak points, not cost or who tends to use it the most.

     

    Where I'd see it was if I were to  talk to someone (in person) who went to school for CG or ID, then you'd tend to get a kind of disinterested or dismissive attitude, whereas someone who was mostly self taught or has started their own business tends to be neutral or at least express some curiosity.

    I used to try and mention DAZ in CG related conversation, sort of to keep with old EULA to promise to "tell people about it", but in all the years I think only maybe one person has maybe even looked into it... I pretty much stopped bothering to mention it by the second release of version 4...

    You see a totally different attitude if you mention Bryce... That was a high end (or at least fairly sophisticated) bit of software once and some people get nostalgic over it.   With Bryce I've had people surprised that it's still around and I'm pretty sure at least two people picked it up when it was free back a few years ago, and at least two others probably bought it for whatever it was going for at the time, based on the enthusiasm, interest and the fact they looked it up while I was there.

    Also age seems to matter too... Older then early forties seems to be more uninterested, late twenties more receptive.

    These are mostly people in industrial design, I have far few reasons or occasions anymore to meet with anyone who is strictly CG unless it's mostly Photoshop based ad or catalog stuff.

    When I was developing my characters for my story, I browsed youtube looking at various rigging artist's showcase videos.  I came across a fellow who made a spectacular realistic rig so I contacted him about doing work for me.  Of course, he worked for a major studio, but he did freelance work on the side.  He asked me to send him some examples of the models for a price quote.  I send him photos of Daz3D models.  He rejected the job outright.  When I asked the reason for the rejection, he said he wants to pursue interesting work and "Daz models don't cut it".  For some reason, I felt hurt but I understood his attitude.  You won't see professionals clammoring for Daz Studio because Daz models are like the McDonald's of 3D characters.  This is not meant to be a insult.  I like McDonald's.  But they are generic, all share the same underlying mesh and skeleton, and you can spot a Daz figure a mile away.  These are not characteristics pro studios are looking for when they want to make their next feature or commercial.  3D professionals strive to create unique and interesting characters to inhabit their worlds and at that level of the profession, a Daz character just doesn't fit.  Daz's mass produced characters are a hit with amateurs, hobbyists and people who just want to have fun with 3D.  There is nothing wrong with that and it is a mistake to try to compare it to the creative professional work that is used in upper tier media. Frankly, they don't need autofit and morphing interchangeable parts.   The gaming industry, on the other hand, is a different matter altogether.

  • drzap said:
    McGyver said:

    Does that stigma really exist?, and where do you see it?

    The only times I've seen mention of people looking down on Daz is in threads like these or by people new to the industry,certainly not from people who have been around for a while.I've spoken with many art directors and artists who have no issue at all with what software is used and I'm often surprised by how many of them use Daz figures in their work,

    I do see people looking down on bad art and that is a valid argument,but all software is capable of bad art when placed in the right/wrong hands.

     

    McGyver said:

    I think it's because it attracts hobbyists and it's free. 

    Some "Professionals" can be rather snooty and view any software that invites the riff-raff into their realm as bothersome.

    On the other hand, real professionals view different software as tools and evaluate them based on strong and weak points, not cost or who tends to use it the most.

     

    Where I'd see it was if I were to  talk to someone (in person) who went to school for CG or ID, then you'd tend to get a kind of disinterested or dismissive attitude, whereas someone who was mostly self taught or has started their own business tends to be neutral or at least express some curiosity.

    I used to try and mention DAZ in CG related conversation, sort of to keep with old EULA to promise to "tell people about it", but in all the years I think only maybe one person has maybe even looked into it... I pretty much stopped bothering to mention it by the second release of version 4...

    You see a totally different attitude if you mention Bryce... That was a high end (or at least fairly sophisticated) bit of software once and some people get nostalgic over it.   With Bryce I've had people surprised that it's still around and I'm pretty sure at least two people picked it up when it was free back a few years ago, and at least two others probably bought it for whatever it was going for at the time, based on the enthusiasm, interest and the fact they looked it up while I was there.

    Also age seems to matter too... Older then early forties seems to be more uninterested, late twenties more receptive.

    These are mostly people in industrial design, I have far few reasons or occasions anymore to meet with anyone who is strictly CG unless it's mostly Photoshop based ad or catalog stuff.

    When I was developing my characters for my story, I browsed youtube looking at various rigging artist's showcase videos.  I came across a fellow who made a spectacular realistic rig so I contacted him about doing work for me.  Of course, he worked for a major studio, but he did freelance work on the side.  He asked me to send him some examples of the models for a price quote.  I send him photos of Daz3D models.  He rejected the job outright.  When I asked the reason for the rejection, he said he wants to pursue interesting work and "Daz models don't cut it".  For some reason, I felt hurt but I understood his attitude.  You won't see professionals clammoring for Daz Studio because Daz models are like the McDonald's of 3D characters.  This is not meant to be a insult.  I like McDonald's.  But they are generic, all share the same underlying mesh and skeleton, and you can spot a Daz figure a mile away.  These are not characteristics pro studios are looking for when they want to make their next feature or commercial.  3D professionals strive to create unique and interesting characters to inhabit their worlds and at that level of the profession, a Daz character just doesn't fit.  Daz's mass produced characters are a hit with amateurs, hobbyists and people who just want to have fun with 3D.  There is nothing wrong with that and it is a mistake to try to compare it to the creative professional work that is used in upper tier media. Frankly, they don't need autofit and morphing interchangeable parts.   The gaming industry, on the other hand, is a different matter altogether.

    I agree that the professional modeling folks don't really need Autofit and morphs, but to say that the models aren't potentially as good isn't something I agree with, simply because even the best model maker starts out with a low polygon base and subdivides from there to get the final highly detailed version. Yes, the DAZ base model isn't unique, but it can be the basis of something just as unique as one sculpted from scratch in Maya or zBrush.

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 1,973

    " I came across a fellow who made a spectacular realistic rig so I
     contacted him about doing work for me.  Of course, he worked for a 
    major studio, but he did freelance work on the side.  
    He asked me to send him some examples of the models for a price quote. 
     I send him photos of Daz3D models.  He rejected the job outright. 
     When I asked the reason for the rejection, he said he wants to
     pursue interesting work and "Daz models don't cut it". 

    I am not sure I am understanding this.

    You were seeking to hire a professional rigger
     to rig a Daz model for Maya and he rejected
    the work based on his personal disdain for Daz meshes??
    Genesis is just a polygonal mesh that can be rigged in blender C4D Maya, lightwave etc.

    This is as though someone trying to hire me to use My Endorphin Ragdoll physics software
    to create an accident of a woman getting hit by a  Toyota "Prius"
    and I reject the animation work because I think "electric/hybrid cars don't cut it"surprise

  • wolf359wolf359 Posts: 1,973

    "professional means you get paid for your work

    nothing more

    and has nothing to do with quality"

    Quite correctyes
    The animators who worked on tv's south park were paid 
    professionals
    yet the show did not have a single redeeming quality IMHO

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