Figures in Vue... Design in Poser or Cararra?
murph101
Posts: 68
I love Vue for it's exterior scene qualities. Is there any advantage in creating characters in Poser over Cararra then importing into Vue?
I would like to depict my characters in Vue, but exported figures from Cararra is clunky and hard to manipulate in Vue (so I don't even bother). I create and pose in Cararra, then export to .OBJ. In Vue I import the figure and arrange. I have learned that Vue has a Poser plug-in, but I don't know if it improves the create/export/import/arrange workflow. I would hope that it eliminates the export/import step and makes manipulation within Vue easier.
HOWEVER, I have a pretty big investment in Cararra, between skills and purchases. Is there a smoother path with less quirks between Cararra and Vue? I'd hate to start over in Poser just to achieve better Vue dexterity.
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Just got Vue 10 Frontier for free with 3D Artist Issue 50 magazine.
While I have not installed it yet to check if it really works, the Frontier edition should include:
Import Poser & Daz Studio Models
Import your Poser & Daz Studio models with ease and create character filled scenes.
Vue 11 Frontier will import any static* Poser & Daz Studio models, including Poser 8 and Poser Pro 2010 characters (Daz 3D characters are imported through the .dae collada file format).
If you like, you may even render your Poser characters using the native shading tree of Poser, so that your characters and materials look similar to Poser - with the added beauty of Vue's radiosity!
* With the optional 3D Import module, you can import fully animated models - complete with dynamic hair and clothes - and re-pose them directly inside of Vue!
More info here:
http://www.cornucopia3d.com/products/vue/vue_11_frontier/
Hi Murph :)
have you thought about going the other way,...
Render out a background image from Vue, Load it into Carrara as a (backdrop) then add your figures on a shadow catcher plane.
It's the same process as combining 3D elements with 2D photo's or video footage. and it's probably the fastest way to work since you're used to posing figures in carrara.
I'm not sure if Vue can export 360 degree spherical environments like Carrara and Bryce can, (Bryce does 96bit HDRI's)
but if it can, then that's another option, which would also help with scene lighting.
Hope it helps :)
Although I'm beginning to figure out how incredibly fast I can make my own assets within Carraras vertex modeller, I still enjoy purchasing in the vast majority of what I render. I might tweak it to unrecognizable things in Carrara - but I still like buying in.
Genesis, for example, is that yummy, buttery frosting on a good, homemade Crazy Cake. With it, I can create all sorts of monsters and people and even animals. Each time I load a new instance of Genesis into the scene, it seems to become more efficient with the rest of them - so I'm not put off by the idea of needing a bunch of characters. This is not something I'd want to make myself for my production stuff. As a hobbyist I want to see how real of a person I can make myself. But Vicky 4, Mike 4 and Genesis, along with all of the character models ever made by Predatron, are the rulers of my production time.
I would love to try out Vue as well - but I've been recently unlocking the doors to making very real-looking environments in Carrara. If I ever get the opportunity to try out another environs app, it's going to be Bryce - and I'll be getting Brinnen and Horos training DVD to help get adjusted. Vue sure looks cool, though. I love the images I see people making with it.
Who knows though. Maybe I'll try it, like it, and keep it. Once a person finds a software that makes them feel at home... nice and comfy, the person tends to open that software more often, and stay longer while there. That's the main reason I have a hard time trying any of the cool apps that Daz3d just gave me for Free... DS 4.5 Pro, Hexagon 2.5, Bryce 7 Pro... these are seriously great applications. And together, they can make a mock Carrara without some of Carraras features, but with many possibilities for expansion via plugins. But Carrara keeps me so content, warm and cozy, that I have a hard time opening another app.
It can. You can choose between normal background, panorama and sphereical renders. You can even export HDR file types.
- - -
My basic workflow is now mostly the following:
- Set up the main scene in whatever software application that is needed for the task.
- Use vue to make a unique sky backdrop that fits the mood.
- Use the same backdrop scene to make an environment map for image based lighting and as reflection map (use the spherical render option')
- Go to the favorite application of your choice and render your scene foreground with the image based lighting and reflection maps.
- Edit the render of the forground together with the backdrop of your choice.
- - -
That sounds like some great marketing that in theory sounds awesome but in practice is different.
At least for the DAZ side of things the following is different:
- You will have to adjust all material settings again: Especially bump values and reflections values tend to be completly off.
All sub surface scattering options will be gone anyway (I asume this is also the case when exporting from poser)
- Especially with the Genesis figure the Collada export / import is not working. Any morphs are lost in the transfer.
I was able to get some animation over with Gen4 V4 / M4 but even in that Generation morphs were not transfered at all.
- - -
If I for some reason want to render a complete still scene with building etc in vue I found .obj export to work fine enough.You will have to set up all materials for your models again no matter from which application one exports.
But I completly gave up on the idea to get any animations over to vue with any figures that include morphs.
Please correct me if this has been fixed by now.
- - -
When it comes to scenes that feature a landscape background and a DAZ figure in the foreground I prefer the composting workflow because:
- It saves time because textures, bump, spec, reflection, environment, subsurface values do not have to be set up again.
- Vue features realistic lighting. But this is not exactly what is needed for "Heroshots".
Example: Vue is using realistic lightinig options that simulate real life situations. But in real life photographer use reflectors and diffusors to get a more pleasing look with no harsh shadows. So one would have to cheat that look in vue by placing white cubes into the scene as reflectors or add addtional lights.
If I have to create artificial lighting for the "Hero" model anyway I might as well render it in another application and composite it with the background.
- - -
Here an example of my last project that features vue just as background with the model rendered in another app:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151439530453899&set=a.10150326306703899.388422.169292668898&type=1&theater;
- - -
In short:
I do not think it is worth the time to learn another software just to be able to import easier into vue.
It would be awesome though if DAZ could make it happen that not only e-on vue but also other applications like Maya, 3DS, Modo, After Effects (!)) would offer scene import / export in the DSON .duf format.
I don't see this as an issue for Daz3D, or it's content creators to solve for other 3D companies,..
These 3D models, and the way they work, Ain't new,.
Poser has been around for a long time,.. as has Daz3D
So the ability to load and use any 3D models, including animation and morphs is entirely up to the developers of those 3D applications, and as fas as I'm aware, ...nobody is stopping them from doing that.
If the users demand that support for animated, morphable models is a feature they want to see implemented in the next release, then it's up to the developers of the software to try to provide that for their customers,.
just my 2 pence
I do not want to derail the original discussion if Poser or Carrara is better suited to export / import over to vue is better suited much further.
Still I do not want there to be any missunderstandings about my standing on the point you picked up:
Lately over and over on the forum is stated that DAZ does not want to be considered as a software development company anymore.
It is stressed that DAZ is a content provider.
Well fair enough. but here comes the
BUT:
As a content provider DAZ has a responsability that the customers can use the content they purchase in a reasonable manor.
I consider the expectation that I can use content for both still images and animations as reasonable.
- - -
They way things seem at the moment is the following:
I was told on the forum many times that DS4.5 is not a high level software and I cannot expect DAZ as a small company with limited resources to hire more software developers. I was told I should consider using Carrara as an alternative as software with advanced animation options.
As of now about one year later Carrara 8.5 is still in beta. People keep saying that DAZ is not a software developer. People can only speculate on the future of Carrara if DAZ would indeed not be wiling to hire additional people developing Carrara.
So what is left?
If the inhouse software is not the best option to use the content at least there should be a "bridge" to software that is more specialised at doing specific tasks.
So all I can do is raise my voice in the forum in the hope that DAZ is being motivated to closly work together with other industry players like Maya, 3DS, Modo, After Effects etc.
What is needed is active dialogue between all companies in the industry. I see it as a duty of DAZ to actively engage and promote the DSON / .duf format and use every possible dialogue options to make those other companies interested in providing that support.
About a year ago shortly before the big "announcment" of the "industry changing announcment" there were some active posts of members of DAZ, like letters to the community etc were there was indicated that DAZ would be indeed talking with other industry players to add support in the future.
But now it is just silence. Maybe something is happening behind the scenes maybe not.
It is up to the other industry players if they want to support the DSON /.duf format in their software.
But I strongly believe that it is also the responsibilty of DAZ to actively use every opportunity to make the other parties interested in working together.
At the moment I am very much under the impression that many companies just keep pointing with the finger and say its the responsability of the other do start developing.
- - -
An example of how things are done in other areas:
Console market, playstation, xbox
How would customers and game developers react if sony or microsoft would say before the end of a console cycle:
"Oh well we do not want to be hardware sellers anymore. We just want to sell games.
We are not going to release anymore patches and updates for our consoles."
Some developers probably would sue. I guess the customer would say goodbye and go to the competition.
- - -
The issue in the 3D content industry is:
There is not really a competition to the figures Gen4, Genesis that DAZ provides. DAZ deceided to go with Genesis and the DSON / .duf format that is not very much compatible with any other industry standards.
So what is the customer supposed to do? All I can do is voice my concern and tell in the forums that I would like to see more support happening.
If I do not raise my voice people might actually get the impression that noone cares if Gen 4 and Genesis figures can be exported with morphs to other applications for animations. Therefore I raise my voice.
The short version:
It is up to the software companies and the developers to judge if there are enough customers to invest some money and hiring some people to do some more advanced development.
But it IS the responsibility of DAZ as content provider (!) to keep doing everything they can to advertise their DSON / .duf format and actively engage in talks to make cooperations happening so their customers can use the content they purchased as expected.
At the moment there is a lot of great content released but there is very little to no information what the plans are to give the customers more options to use that content in other applications.
HI :)
I also don't wan to derail anything or start an argument,
,,But,.. there's clearly a misunderstanding about things here, so I'll try to clarify..
Brief history :
Daz3D started off as a "Content developer" called "Zygote" and "content development" is the main reason they're in business, it's still the Core of their business model.
Originally, Daz3D created content for use in Poser.
Poser was developed by Meta-creations,. ...they then sold it to "Curious labs",
At that time,... this came as a shock to the users and Content developers. with lot's of speculation on forums about it's future.
The Poser software was sold again to the current owners,.. Smith Micro.
As a "Content developer" for a product which could be sold on to another company at any time,. it seemed like a sensible strategic move, for the "content developer" to seek an alternative software application which could be used with their library of content. but which would also be within their control.
So,.. Daz3D purchased Carrara,. which could load "poser content" and they also purchased Bryce and Hexagon around the same time
They also made a decision to create their own software,... "Daz Studio"
this ensured that the growing library of content which they sold, could continue to be sold, no matter what happened to Poser.
Technically, they became involved in "software development" at that point.
they were never a "Software Developer" who also made 3D content.
they Are a "content" retailer,. who also sells software which they own and actively develop.
So,.. the core of Daz;'s business is still in selling Content,.
Primarily all of the content is designed and structured to be installed and used within Poser, and in Daz studio.
The majority of the Daz "content" in the store comes from independent creators. (Published artists) and not from Daz3D directly.
and some of those developers also make versions of products which can be used in other 3D and 2D software, and Daz3D sells those products here in the store,.
If you want to import content into a program which it wasn't designed for, then that can usually be done, but with obvious limitations depending on the software you're using.
What software you choose, is obviously up to you,.. and how that software handles any specific format of 3D file, is up to the software developers for that product. ....not the makers of the models you're using.
There's no "secret sauce" which would stop any software developers from supporting "Poser format" or "Daz3D format" models.
but it's not the responsibility of Daz3D, it it's content creators to add "Poser content" support to another companies 3D software. (even if they could)
That's something that can only be done by the developers of that 3D software.
hope that makes sense :)
Hi linvanchene,
What you're asking sounds to me more like a feature request for their content. Since DAZ generally does not have the time to read the forums, it might be best to submit it as a feature request if you want them to see it. But like Andy (3DAGE) said, it's really up to the other software developers to figure out how to import DAZ content. And from other recent threads, apparently there's not much of a problem using FBX to get some data into 3ds Max just as an example. DAZ already has the FBX export option there in Studio and Carrara. And some folks use Collada to get DAZ content into Blender.
The Poser to Vue bridge used to (and probably still does) involve having Poser installed as Vue called on Poser functions for the import into Vue, much like TransPoser used to work in Carrara. It's probably better to composite as much as possble instead of trying to get things to work between software packages. Compositing is a big time saver, especially when you always have to tweak textures and make fixes between packages. You just have to make sure the lighting matches like you would if you were compositing CG with live action.
Completly agreeing on this. And it is also what I stated in my first post. My first post was really just trying to say:
"The way things are looking now just use compositing it is not worth dealing with addtional software that still does not offer any better features to complete the task"
I then went on to derail the thread by also stating that I would actually love to see more "bridges" between software added.
- - -
Anyway I guess I can close that circle by saying
At the moment I am under the assumption that when I want to bring an animated Genesis figure to e-on vue it does not matter if I choose Poser or Carrara. Both ways do not work.
A few more point to add to this:
Genesis is a huge push forward in figure technology. Daz3d, as a company, did contact the other software companies. Smith Micro even agreed to include support - but backed out. DSON was created by Daz3d for Poser software users, because Smith Micro didn't, and probably wasn't going to.
Once you break away from Daz Studio and Poser users, however, you'll find an entirely different sort of customer. We have some 3DS Max users within our community. But for the most part, that's not the norm. Poser users, DS users, etc., all tend to push outwards looking for "Better" rendering options, or "better" animation support, or...
There is a breed of software, like Vue, which is geared toward the Poser / DS user - not really, but same market.
Start talking to the folks who use Maya. Ask them how they sort their run times once. But wear your helmet... seriously.
Maya and 3DS Max are excellent. But for what we do with Daz content, I truly still find that Carrara is better.
A good person to talk to, would also be Solomon, from over in the Animation forum, here at Daz. He is a professional and uses all sorts of content with the latest super suite of 3DS MAX. And he is very talented and super friendly.
But Daz made Genesis for us. We are the people who need Daz3d - because they make the stuff we want. So if WE want someone else to support Genesis, it is truly up to US to see that through. Genesis is no small advantage. To someone like me - who is constantly adding new content while trying new ways to render, Genesis was and is a blessing. No other figure transforms so elegantly.
I totally here what you're saying. And I have to say:
Daz3d has done their part in getting others on the board. They really have. Daz would love nothing more than to tear down the borders between them and us - so to speak. Daz3d has been working tirelessly to see that we have the tools to do what we want - even when it came to them having to buy the software or watch it disappear. Daz3d is the Hero here, not the villain.
I really hope that didn't come off sounding grumpy...
I'm with you. Genesis (and all Daz content) would be welcome in all 3d apps.
Thank goodness that the tools it does work with are good. We just have to play with the settings to get the renders we want.
HI linvanchene :)
Genesis breaks all the previous "standards" for figures in Poser,. and when it was being developed, Smith Micro decided not to implement "all" of the new technology,. but implemented "some" of it in the new Weight mapping in poser9 and Poser Pro2012.
this meant that when genesis was released, it only worked in Daz Studio, which supports ALL of the new technology.
This caused a lot of negative vibes from the Poser community,.. and this lead to the development of the DSON importer (for poser)
It makes financial sense for daz3D to spend time and resources to make using genesis possible in Poser, since the core business is selling Content for Poser, and they have a large community of poser users, purchasing content, and a HUGE library of content for sale.
The New format's which have been developed, and all the new technology is available for any developers to implement in their software,.
Daz3D cannot make it work in other companies software, or force developers to adopt any of this technology
that's a choice for the developers of those programs to make (just like Smith Micro have done) in part.
Daz have been actively developing Carrara 8.5, and the new genesis technology to make it all work even better, and they're also developing the new Duf format, and metadate for the existing library of products.
So,.. they're working pretty hard at it, and getting a lot done, quickly,. although compared to a dedicated (software developer) who only develops software,. the progress may seem slow.
One reason why genesis may be harder to get into Vue, or other 3D applications is the fct that it uses a different system of Weight mapping (TRIAX) which allows vertex mapping on all axis (x,y,z)
So,. if your 3d program doesn't support that,.. that's a problem , and one which Daz3D cannot fix for that software.
Carrara already has a vertex weight mapping system, so it's easier to implement genesis in carrara,. but the rest of the technology and the evolving Duf format is still being added.
I agree,. and they are currently doing this, and have been since they began developing it,. but they cannot force developers to adopt any of this technology,. and they cannot implement it into any software.
that's a choice for the developers of other 3D programs to make.
As far as making a Format and then having other companies support that format,...
Not all applications, support All formats,. and nobody can force them to do so.
but the format and technology is available to anyone who wants to Implement it
For example,. 3D Max has a "Biped" and "physique" system, which give you a simple (customisable) rigged figure, and a complex system of weighting envelopes.
They are the only ones using this system. and it was introduced in Character studio, with 3D Studio 2, or 3,... (a long time ago)
so it's worth bearing in mind that genesis technology is brand new,. ...Given time, and users demanding that their 3D software of choice should support this new technology,. then you may see other applications adopting it, or at least supporting it.
Not all 3D software is the same, and not all 3D programs support the same features, functions, or formats.
For example: Carrara uses a different shader system from Poser, and it uses a different shading system from Daz Studio, and it uses a different shading system from 3DMax, and it uses a different system from Lightwave,... All 3d software is different
Daz studio doesn't support Carrara's Terrains, Oceans, Plants, Particles, Hair, and more,.. because it doesn't have that technology
and it's owned and developed by the same company.
You could argue that all of the developers should agree on a single standard of shaders, and weight mapping, and all other 3D technology,.
but they don't ,... and sometimes that leads to a ground breaking change,. such as genesis,. and sometimes that causes issues for people who want to use Genesis in software which it was never designed to be used in, and which doesn't "currently" support that new technology
Sometimes you need to break the mould in order to advance and evolve,