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Orientation v Rotation

Titanic401Titanic401 Posts: 0
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

Can someboby please explain to me the difference between the orientation and rotation in properties. They both seem to do the same thing making one of them completely useless.

TIA
Ernie

Comments

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited October 2012

    HI Titanic401
    Welcome :)

    I suppose you could say that the Object Centre, and the Object Hot-point, are both the same, and that the object Size and Scaling were also the same thing. and you're right,. the Orientation of the object, and the Rotation, look as if they do the same thing,.
    but they do the same thing,.. in a different way.

    The Orientation is independent of the objects Hot-point.

    The Rotation uses the objects hot-point as the centre. irrespective of the objects orientation to the hot-point.

    for example,. a moon orbiting a planet, can be done by offsetting the moon orientation to the hot-point, and then rotating the object (or adding a spin modifier) to make it appear to orbit the larger planet.

    The rotation of the object can be animated
    The object orientation can't

    in the screen capture below, you can see that the object orientation has been changed, and the objects hot-point is now outside of the object,. but the object rotation is still at zero.

    Hope it helps :)

    orientation1.jpg
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    Post edited by 3DAGE on
  • Titanic401Titanic401 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Too bad the hot point can't be rotated independently, which would be helpful in many ways.

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    You can do that by creating a Group,. or Animated group.
    Then you have one real object inside a virtual container "group"

    The object can be animated ,... and so can the group.

    for example:, a figure is an "Animated group",.. The figure can have a "walking in place" animation,. and the entire figure "group" can be animated to follow a motion path, so the figure appears to be walking around the scene.

    :)

  • de3ande3an Posts: 915
    edited December 1969

    3DAGE said:
    The Orientation is independent of the objects Hot-point.
    The Rotation uses the objects hot-point as the centre. irrespective of the objects orientation to the hot-point.

    I'm observing a different behavior.
    I find that the Orientation parameter always moves an object relative to the object's Hot Point position, and the Rotation parameter can move the object relative to either the Hot Point or the Object's Center, depending on the selection made in the drop-down menu.

    This is for the Mac version of Carrara 8.5.

    orientation-rotation.png
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  • Titanic401Titanic401 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    3DAGE said:
    You can do that by creating a Group,. or Animated group.
    Then you have one real object inside a virtual container "group"

    The object can be animated ,... and so can the group.

    for example:, a figure is an "Animated group",.. The figure can have a "walking in place" animation,. and the entire figure "group" can be animated to follow a motion path, so the figure appears to be walking around the scene.

    :)

    I'm talking about rotating the hot point so I can, for example, rotate a set of cowl flaps on a WWII fighter all at once yet maintain each flap's angle according to the cowl itself.

    I hope you understood that...

  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    HI de3an :)

    yes, there's an option for what to rotate around, .. I forgot that . oops.
    If you adjust the orientation values, it moves the object, not the hot point.
    the hotpoint remains where it was.
    ...is what I was trying to say


    Titanic401 :)

    You can use CAPS LOCK on and off, to release or lock the hotpoint, so you can move it to a specific point , such as the edge of a door, then Lock it there, so that the object pivots at that point.
    You can also set constraints to limit the motion range of the object.
    Once you have those in place you should be able to select and rotate several object at the same time, wherther you dfo that manually using the value inputs, or directly using the rotate tool.

  • Titanic401Titanic401 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    That's what I did, but unfortunately that doesn't change the orientation of the hot point itself and the flaps wouldn't move with respect to their original closed angle.

    Does that make sense?

  • de3ande3an Posts: 915
    edited December 1969

    I think what Titanic401 is trying to do is create a ring of "flaps" that can be pivoted in and out in unison, without having to adjust each one individually. (Google for images of "cowl flaps")

    I thought perhaps a Track Modifier could work, but was not successful. Perhaps this is why Fenric created the Enhanced Remote Control plug-in for Carrara.
    (http://www.daz3d.com/shop/carrara-enhanced-remote-control)

    Below is the model I was testing with. In this case all of the flaps were rotated individually.

    cowl_flaps.png
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  • HeadwaxHeadwax Posts: 9,922
    edited December 1969

    oh looks like a job for a boring old morph and replicator (just use two morphs and you won't lose much of the flap width mid morph)

  • McGuiverMcGuiver Posts: 219
    edited December 1969

    For the flap model, bones could be used on each individual flap....don't have time to model & test right now, hopefully someone else can chime in if that is what titanic401 is trying to do.

  • Titanic401Titanic401 Posts: 0
    edited October 2012

    de3an said:
    I think what Titanic401 is trying to do is create a ring of "flaps" that can be pivoted in and out in unison, without having to adjust each one individually. (Google for images of "cowl flaps")

    I thought perhaps a Track Modifier could work, but was not successful. Perhaps this is why Fenric created the Enhanced Remote Control plug-in for Carrara.
    (http://www.daz3d.com/shop/carrara-enhanced-remote-control)

    Below is the model I was testing with. In this case all of the flaps were rotated individually.

    That's exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.

    It would be so much easier if I could get the hot point for each flap set to the same angle as a flap, I know one way I could possibly use but being able to just rotate the hot point would be so much easier.

    I would have thought using local object space would and probably should have taken care of this, but unfortunately it didn't.

    Post edited by Titanic401 on
  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    Hi Titanic401 :)

    Apologies for my tardy reply, ...I had to sleep :)

    I remember Richard asking this same question a couple of months ago, but I couldn't recall the answer last night.


    When you add the Axis Constraint to the wing flaps,. you can set the values for X, Y , and Z (this will visibly change the alignment of the objects hot-point (see pic).
    You can also set the limits of rotation for the main axis.

    Hope it helps.


    Hi de3an :)

    I'm thinking that a target helper,. in the centre of the ship,.. would possibly work to adjust all the flaps ,... just guessing
    Fenrics ERC is also a good option.

    I suppose the way the flaps work depends on whether it's a flying saucer, or a more conventional (fixed wing) WW2 aircraft,
    but in either case, setting the constraint allows you to angle or alter the alignment of the hot point.

    Headwax and McGuiver are also right , you could do it with Bones or Morphs, ...both methods will work, and are equally valid.

    but the hot-point alignment, and the angle of rotation limits can be adjusted when you apply the constraints.

    angle_constraint.jpg
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  • pscammp_2e78c43842pscammp_2e78c43842 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Hello all,

    Got me thinking so i had a play, this issue can actually be worked around in the
    Vertex modeller.

    Heres a similar model with flaps where the hotpoints are correctly orientated
    in relation to the flaps themselves, they are flapping around a bit but they can
    easily be tied to produce aircraft style flaps to name but one.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox3oDJC1tuU


    LOL

  • de3ande3an Posts: 915
    edited December 1969

    I was trying to use the "Axis Constraint" but couldn't figure out how to select the desired axis. It seems to be permanently set to allow rotation around the Z axis only.

    Anyone know how to select the axis?

    Here's what the manual has to say (the red highlight is mine):

    Axis
    The Axis constraint lets a child object rotate around its hot point on one of the three axes. Examples of the limited axis constraint in the human body are the elbow and the knee. The rotation options are:

    Locked - prevents any movement on the selected axis.
    Limited - allows you to place limitations on movement in both directions.
    Free - lets the object move anywhere along that axis.

    axis_constraint.png
    237 x 181 - 17K
  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    HI,.. I forgot to upload this earlier,. it's a Zoom in of the screen-capture above.

    you can set any axis by adjusting the others,. so in this case where the wing model is level to the floor, I need the X value to be 90 degrees so the constraint "gizmo" flips up to the vertical.
    I've then limited the amount that the "Flap" model can rotate.

    hope that makes sense..

    angle_constraint_zoom.jpg
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  • de3ande3an Posts: 915
    edited December 1969

    3DAGE said:
    HI,.. I forgot to upload this earlier,. it's a Zoom in of the screen-capture above.

    you can set any axis by adjusting the others,. so in this case where the wing model is level to the floor, I need the X value to be 90 degrees so the constraint "gizmo" flips up to the vertical.
    I've then limited the amount that the "Flap" model can rotate.

    hope that makes sense..

    OK, thanks! I'm seeing how this works now. However it seems to be kind of wonky. If you move the hot point of the object, the constraint "gizmo" get all out of joint and becomes very hard to interpret. Additionally, rotating the constrained object by the Universal Manipulator in the Assemble room is counter intuitive (although the Rotate manipulator seems to function properly).

    In the meantime, I think I’ve found a solution for Titanic401 using the Ball Joint constraint. I be posting it in a few minutes.

  • de3ande3an Posts: 915
    edited October 2012

    I think I got it. A real puzzler.

    First, arrange the flaps around the cowl such that the xyz axes are oriented uniformly so that a rotation in one axis will move the flap in the correct direction. Move the Hot Points for all of the flaps to the leading edge of the flaps. This can be done all at once by selecting all of the flaps at the same time and while the Caps Lock key is active, move the Hot Points.

    Use the Universal Manipulator to view the axes relative to the flap, rather than relative to the workspace. (See image)

    Select each flap and apply a "Ball Joint" Constraint. In the case of this model the rotation of each flap occurs around the y axis, so the constraints for each axis was x-Locked, y-Limited, z-Locked. The "Rotation Order" needs to be changed to YZX before it will work correctly.
    (FULL DISCLOSURE: I have little knowledge about what "Rotation Order" does. I found out by trial and error that I needed this setting to make all of the flaps rotate the correct amount in the correct direction.)

    Select one flap (I used the top one) and give it a unique name, such as "control flap".

    Select each of the other flaps in turn and apply a "Track" Modifier. In the modifier properties check "Track Rotation" and uncheck X, Y, and Z. In the "Towards" parameter choose the flap that you renamed "control flap".

    After the "Track" Modifier has been applied to all of the flaps, rotating the "control flap" around the Y axis should cause all of the other flaps to follow suit.


    EDIT: For some reason my animated GIF isn't displaying properly when posted here, but you can still kind of see what's happening. I'll fix it if I can.

    EDIT2: If you click on the animation it will open in another window where it will display properly.

    cowl_flaps3.gif
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    axes_orientation.png
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    Post edited by de3an on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Titanic401 said:
    Can someboby please explain to me the difference between the orientation and rotation in properties. They both seem to do the same thing making one of them completely useless.

    I believe that all "orientation" does is allow you to re-orient/change the rotation of the hotpoint. Caps Lock allows you to move/translate the base location of the hotpoint, and orientation allows you to change its base rotation.

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